House Member
Posts: 2,838 
Location: California
Location: California
November 19th, 2007, 06:18 PM
People don't commit suicide because of what someone else does. The only person responsible for that choice is the person who makes it. Saying we should charge the people who were mean to them only reinforces the idea that someone is to blame for suicides. If you had been nicer, more attentive, called more often, cooked her dinner, maybe she wouldn't have killed herself? Families and friends torture themselves with this enough already.
People don't commit suicide because of what someone else does. The only person responsible for that choice is the person who makes it. Saying we should charge the people who were mean to them only reinforces the idea that someone is to blame for suicides. If you had been nicer, more attentive, called more often, cooked her dinner, maybe she wouldn't have killed herself? Families and friends torture themselves with this enough already.
November 19th, 2007, 08:02 PM
Well in this case, it's not being nicer, so much as not being an @ss.
We charge people for harassment for causing undue suffering.
If people weren't @ssholes in the first place, there wouldn't be this type of problem. But there is, and I think it needs to be dealt with.
I think it's premature to say that people don't cause suicide. They may not have caused the initial depressive state that the person is in, but that doesn't mean that the proverbial straw which broke the camels back doesn't bare some blame.
What it boils down to is do we as society want to sanction that type of behaviour.
Well in this case, it's not being nicer, so much as not being an @ss.
We charge people for harassment for causing undue suffering.
If people weren't @ssholes in the first place, there wouldn't be this type of problem. But there is, and I think it needs to be dealt with.
I think it's premature to say that people don't cause suicide. They may not have caused the initial depressive state that the person is in, but that doesn't mean that the proverbial straw which broke the camels back doesn't bare some blame.
What it boils down to is do we as society want to sanction that type of behaviour.
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 6,250
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
November 19th, 2007, 08:26 PM
Woof!
Quoting Tonington
...and that's the whole legal catch-all. Depresion was pre-existing so the lawyers will argue: Was it the condition or the mean trick? I hope the little brats have conscience enough to be haunted - but not enough to drive them to the easy way out.
Well in this case, it's not being nicer, so much as not being an @ss.
We charge people for harassment for causing undue suffering.
If people weren't @ssholes in the first place, there wouldn't be this type of problem. But there is, and I think it needs to be dealt with.
I think it's premature to say that people don't cause suicide. They may not have caused the initial depressive state that the person is in, but that doesn't mean that the proverbial straw which broke the camels back doesn't bare some blame.
What it boils down to is do we as society want to sanction that type of behaviour.
We charge people for harassment for causing undue suffering.
If people weren't @ssholes in the first place, there wouldn't be this type of problem. But there is, and I think it needs to be dealt with.
I think it's premature to say that people don't cause suicide. They may not have caused the initial depressive state that the person is in, but that doesn't mean that the proverbial straw which broke the camels back doesn't bare some blame.
What it boils down to is do we as society want to sanction that type of behaviour.
Woof!
November 19th, 2007, 09:08 PM
Picking my nose and scratching my butt is not illegal in any way, but you can be guaranteed that society would show disgust toward me for engaging in them. It may not be illegal, but it's not excused either.
I think what these people are going to see is extreme disgust, isolation, and anger from their community, even if there's no legal punishment.
Quoting Tonington
What it boils down to is do we as society want to sanction that type of behaviour.
I guess you have to ask yourself, is society sanctioning this behavior in any way shape or form? There's a difference between putting a legal or criminal penalty to a behavior, and having social penalties for it. What it boils down to is do we as society want to sanction that type of behaviour.
Picking my nose and scratching my butt is not illegal in any way, but you can be guaranteed that society would show disgust toward me for engaging in them. It may not be illegal, but it's not excused either.
I think what these people are going to see is extreme disgust, isolation, and anger from their community, even if there's no legal punishment.
November 19th, 2007, 09:38 PM
Well, I guess I was using the word sanction from a legal sense, as in formal decree. There are plenty of unwritten rules, like picking ones nose
There is a federal statute in the states that covers direct messages, but not postings for prosecuting internet harassment. It's a hole, and it needs to be fixed.
Well, I guess I was using the word sanction from a legal sense, as in formal decree. There are plenty of unwritten rules, like picking ones nose
There is a federal statute in the states that covers direct messages, but not postings for prosecuting internet harassment. It's a hole, and it needs to be fixed.
House Member
Posts: 2,838
Location: California
Location: California
November 20th, 2007, 10:02 AM
Our courts have enough to deal with without having to prosecute for hurt feelings. That's what this was. Can any of us honestly say we'd kill ourselves if someone was mean to us on the internet? Not if we're at all rational. This girl obviously wasn't. No one can predict suicide, especially not a bunch of other kids. I've told people I didn't want to speak with them again. It would never have occured to me that they could have commited suicide afterwords and I'd be to blame. At a certain point people are responsible for their own decisions, even if someone upset them.
Our courts have enough to deal with without having to prosecute for hurt feelings. That's what this was. Can any of us honestly say we'd kill ourselves if someone was mean to us on the internet? Not if we're at all rational. This girl obviously wasn't. No one can predict suicide, especially not a bunch of other kids. I've told people I didn't want to speak with them again. It would never have occured to me that they could have commited suicide afterwords and I'd be to blame. At a certain point people are responsible for their own decisions, even if someone upset them.
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 6,250
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
November 20th, 2007, 10:52 AM
With some people, this whole Internet thing is their reality. Even in these forums we cross paths with people whose whole lives are here. What to some is like falling in love with a TV is too real to others - and you just can't know who they are until you step on a toe.
Woof!
With some people, this whole Internet thing is their reality. Even in these forums we cross paths with people whose whole lives are here. What to some is like falling in love with a TV is too real to others - and you just can't know who they are until you step on a toe.
Woof!
November 20th, 2007, 12:21 PM
The whole situation is sad. I feel so bad for her parents.
But I also don't think the "fault" is on the hoaxer. Sure, it's a nasty thing, the harassment, but they aren't responsible for what the child did with it.
Yet another example of why we need to stay vigilant when it comes to our kids on the web.
The whole situation is sad. I feel so bad for her parents.
But I also don't think the "fault" is on the hoaxer. Sure, it's a nasty thing, the harassment, but they aren't responsible for what the child did with it.
Yet another example of why we need to stay vigilant when it comes to our kids on the web.
November 20th, 2007, 12:35 PM
I don't think 'fault' is what this case is all about. It's about harassment. It happens on-line all the time. It happens in the un-pixilated world too, but we punish that behaviour. Laws are meant to guide our behaviour, and that anyone can see this as being acceptable decorum is frankly baffling.
This case is even more ludicrous because the people knew who this girl was, her identity was known as well as her situation. Not like most forms of internet chatting. It's deplorable and sociopathic behaviour.
I don't think 'fault' is what this case is all about. It's about harassment. It happens on-line all the time. It happens in the un-pixilated world too, but we punish that behaviour. Laws are meant to guide our behaviour, and that anyone can see this as being acceptable decorum is frankly baffling.
This case is even more ludicrous because the people knew who this girl was, her identity was known as well as her situation. Not like most forms of internet chatting. It's deplorable and sociopathic behaviour.
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 6,250
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
November 20th, 2007, 12:49 PM
Woof!
Quoting Tonington
Kids aren't intentionally cruel (most times) They seldom consider their actions. By the same token, someone who swings from pillar to post and/or who may even involve others in the dramatic love 'em/hate'em Hell of depression, ADD and likely bi-polar can seem awful cruel to folks who don't understand.
I don't think 'fault' is what this case is all about. It's about harassment. It happens on-line all the time. It happens in the un-pixilated world too, but we punish that behaviour. Laws are meant to guide our behaviour, and that anyone can see this as being acceptable decorum is frankly baffling.
This case is even more ludicrous because the people knew who this girl was, her identity was known as well as her situation. Not like most forms of internet chatting. It's deplorable and sociopathic behaviour.
This case is even more ludicrous because the people knew who this girl was, her identity was known as well as her situation. Not like most forms of internet chatting. It's deplorable and sociopathic behaviour.
Woof!
House Member
Posts: 2,838
Location: California
Location: California
November 20th, 2007, 05:32 PM
From the article:
Megan's mother, who monitored her daughter's online communications, returned home and said she was shocked at the vulgar language her own daughter was sending. She told her daughter how upset she was about it.
Megan ran upstairs, and her father, Ron, tried to tell her everything would be fine. About 20 minutes later, she was found in her bedroom. She died the next day.
This girl obviously had other problems.
From the article:
Megan's mother, who monitored her daughter's online communications, returned home and said she was shocked at the vulgar language her own daughter was sending. She told her daughter how upset she was about it.
Megan ran upstairs, and her father, Ron, tried to tell her everything would be fine. About 20 minutes later, she was found in her bedroom. She died the next day.
This girl obviously had other problems.
November 20th, 2007, 05:33 PM
Yes, but, when a mom gets involved in the harassing, do things change? The fact that it's a grown woman who fleeced this girl with the account DOES change it a bit. Mind you, like I've said, they never out and out say if the woman was the one who made the final statements, but, it seems like a horrible action for an adult anyway.
Yes, but, when a mom gets involved in the harassing, do things change? The fact that it's a grown woman who fleeced this girl with the account DOES change it a bit. Mind you, like I've said, they never out and out say if the woman was the one who made the final statements, but, it seems like a horrible action for an adult anyway.
War Minister
Posts: 3,061
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Location: The Moonsine Cafe
Videos: 4
Location: The Moonsine Cafe
November 20th, 2007, 05:36 PM
As well, parents have to be nosey when it comes to their kids online life. You have one, don't for a moment think that your older child doesn't. Get in and look around at who they are talking to, where they are going and what is being said. Simple open up that hotmail account and MSN and while they sit there, look through it and ask questions. They know not to get involved with silly head games when someone is paying attention to them.
Pay attention.
As well, parents have to be nosey when it comes to their kids online life. You have one, don't for a moment think that your older child doesn't. Get in and look around at who they are talking to, where they are going and what is being said. Simple open up that hotmail account and MSN and while they sit there, look through it and ask questions. They know not to get involved with silly head games when someone is paying attention to them.
Pay attention.
