A Mad Mulligan
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September 6th, 2007, 02:25 PM
Sep 06, 2007 11:50 AM
Richard Brennan
Staff Reporter
Progressive Conservative Leader John Tory scrambled today to downplay his policy of funding religious schools and the controversies surrounding it.
“It represents a quarter of a page in a 52-page document,” he said defensively as he neared the end of his first week of campaigning for the Oct. 10 provincial election.
Tory was still smarting from telling reporters yesterday that Christian schools would still be able to teach creationism even if they got funding, which feeds into fears these schools will still teach whatever they want, despite Tory’s assurance they will have to teach the provincial curriculum in order to get the funding.
Creationism is controversial in that it is the view that all things on earth were created directly by God, as described in the Book of Genesis.
Tory, who said today he believes in evolution, issued a clarification yesterday stating that his proposal would allow creationism to be discussed only as part of religious studies, as is now the case in Ontario’s publicly-funded Catholic schools, and not in science class.
Tory said today he understands that funding religious schools with public money is controversial and that he will have to chose his words more carefully.
He added that while the media seems to be obsessed with his faith-based school funding proposal, most people, according to him, are concerned about taxes, community safety and other things.
“I know some people raised the schools issues … but I will tell you that many issues are being raised in many different contexts by voters and that a big part of what people are talking about is Mr. McGuinty’s broken promises, his disrespect for taxpayers and the struggles they are having and issues like community safety.”
Tory attempted to change the channel today with an attack on the governing Liberals’ “reckless spending.”
“I am here today discussing scandalous waste in government and scandalous lack of accountability for taxpayers’ money,” he said.
The Conservative leader attacked Premier Dalton McGuinty’s “irresponsible” spending and secret slush fund, saying it has robbed the province of money for badly needed programs such as health and education.
“At a time when so many urgent public needs go without, a time when many taxpayers can barely afford to keep up with the cost of living, it is appalling that Dalton McGuinty always seems to have a few million extras dollars lying around to hand out to his friends,” he told reporters today.
The Liberals were slammed by opposition parties and Ontario's auditor general for handing out $32 million to over 100 multicultural groups -- many with Liberal ties -- with no formal application process or formal controls over the last two years.
Tory has accused the Liberals of $2.7 billion in “undocumented year-end spending."
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Sorry was that a 5 billion dollar deficit these jokers left the public after the last election? Now he wants to get everyone to pay for alsorts of kooky mumbo jumbo schools to teach kids what they should be taught in their own homes and by already tax exempt places of worship?
Idiot!
Sep 06, 2007 11:50 AM
Richard Brennan
Staff Reporter
Progressive Conservative Leader John Tory scrambled today to downplay his policy of funding religious schools and the controversies surrounding it.
“It represents a quarter of a page in a 52-page document,” he said defensively as he neared the end of his first week of campaigning for the Oct. 10 provincial election.
Tory was still smarting from telling reporters yesterday that Christian schools would still be able to teach creationism even if they got funding, which feeds into fears these schools will still teach whatever they want, despite Tory’s assurance they will have to teach the provincial curriculum in order to get the funding.
Creationism is controversial in that it is the view that all things on earth were created directly by God, as described in the Book of Genesis.
Tory, who said today he believes in evolution, issued a clarification yesterday stating that his proposal would allow creationism to be discussed only as part of religious studies, as is now the case in Ontario’s publicly-funded Catholic schools, and not in science class.
Tory said today he understands that funding religious schools with public money is controversial and that he will have to chose his words more carefully.
He added that while the media seems to be obsessed with his faith-based school funding proposal, most people, according to him, are concerned about taxes, community safety and other things.
“I know some people raised the schools issues … but I will tell you that many issues are being raised in many different contexts by voters and that a big part of what people are talking about is Mr. McGuinty’s broken promises, his disrespect for taxpayers and the struggles they are having and issues like community safety.”
Tory attempted to change the channel today with an attack on the governing Liberals’ “reckless spending.”
“I am here today discussing scandalous waste in government and scandalous lack of accountability for taxpayers’ money,” he said.
The Conservative leader attacked Premier Dalton McGuinty’s “irresponsible” spending and secret slush fund, saying it has robbed the province of money for badly needed programs such as health and education.
“At a time when so many urgent public needs go without, a time when many taxpayers can barely afford to keep up with the cost of living, it is appalling that Dalton McGuinty always seems to have a few million extras dollars lying around to hand out to his friends,” he told reporters today.
The Liberals were slammed by opposition parties and Ontario's auditor general for handing out $32 million to over 100 multicultural groups -- many with Liberal ties -- with no formal application process or formal controls over the last two years.
Tory has accused the Liberals of $2.7 billion in “undocumented year-end spending."
----------------------
Sorry was that a 5 billion dollar deficit these jokers left the public after the last election? Now he wants to get everyone to pay for alsorts of kooky mumbo jumbo schools to teach kids what they should be taught in their own homes and by already tax exempt places of worship?
Idiot!
Satelitte Radio Addict
Posts: 869
Location: Toronto, ON
Location: Toronto, ON
September 6th, 2007, 04:04 PM
I don't like this plan at all. We should also revoke all funding for the Catholics as well. Public education should be public education.
Of course, if its a MsQuinty-like promise it won't mean squat come the day after the election.
I don't like this plan at all. We should also revoke all funding for the Catholics as well. Public education should be public education.
Of course, if its a MsQuinty-like promise it won't mean squat come the day after the election.
September 7th, 2007, 12:40 PM
I don't get the worry... mind you, I suppose there may be some Christian school which are different, but when I attended Catholic school, we were taught the creation story in religion class, and about evolution in science class. The rest was left to us to decide for ourselves.
I don't get the worry... mind you, I suppose there may be some Christian school which are different, but when I attended Catholic school, we were taught the creation story in religion class, and about evolution in science class. The rest was left to us to decide for ourselves.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,529
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
September 7th, 2007, 12:51 PM
It's not so much the creation/evolution thing as it is the funding for all these different schools. Kids can sort it out - but if the roof's leaking or the paint's peeling or the computers are all out of date because the money's all got to be split among four or five different Boards and yours happens to be the oldest building (the Public School System) how easy do the lessons come?
Wolf
It's not so much the creation/evolution thing as it is the funding for all these different schools. Kids can sort it out - but if the roof's leaking or the paint's peeling or the computers are all out of date because the money's all got to be split among four or five different Boards and yours happens to be the oldest building (the Public School System) how easy do the lessons come?
Wolf
September 7th, 2007, 12:55 PM
I had kind of focused on Unf's highlighting, which strictly pertained to issues of evolutionism/creationism.
As for funding, everywhere I've ever lived with a dual system has had you declare where your taxes go... public or a seperate school. That seems a fair enough system to me.
I had kind of focused on Unf's highlighting, which strictly pertained to issues of evolutionism/creationism.
As for funding, everywhere I've ever lived with a dual system has had you declare where your taxes go... public or a seperate school. That seems a fair enough system to me.
Steven Hawking's Hero
Posts: 6,445
September 7th, 2007, 12:57 PM
Separation of education from religious teaching should be the choice of the family of course
Religious teaching can be accomplished after school and/or on weekend studies, but to incorporate them in a publicly funded school system is baiting the bear for controversy.
Children are inclined to soak up many beliefs and if they are to be indoctinated through exposure to
one only religious teaching along with their education, I see this as limiting their learning abilities
restricting them from exploration the many facets of religious studies along with other non-inclusive
studies which should be taught outside the public classroom setting.
Comparative general religious studies as taught through classroom formulae of covering as many religious groups as possible, can be incorporated into many social programs, but not limiting to one
religious study - as dictated by the school itself unless it is a self-governing, self-funding education/religious school.
Separation of education from religious teaching should be the choice of the family of course
Religious teaching can be accomplished after school and/or on weekend studies, but to incorporate them in a publicly funded school system is baiting the bear for controversy.
Children are inclined to soak up many beliefs and if they are to be indoctinated through exposure to
one only religious teaching along with their education, I see this as limiting their learning abilities
restricting them from exploration the many facets of religious studies along with other non-inclusive
studies which should be taught outside the public classroom setting.
Comparative general religious studies as taught through classroom formulae of covering as many religious groups as possible, can be incorporated into many social programs, but not limiting to one
religious study - as dictated by the school itself unless it is a self-governing, self-funding education/religious school.
September 7th, 2007, 01:07 PM
And where I live it's a single board controlling the (so far) two systems allocating the money according to your choice when you pay property taxes..the half hour or so a day that they would teach the kids about their own religion doesn't bother me as long as they properly teach them according to the provincial curriculum the rest of the day......
And where I live it's a single board controlling the (so far) two systems allocating the money according to your choice when you pay property taxes..the half hour or so a day that they would teach the kids about their own religion doesn't bother me as long as they properly teach them according to the provincial curriculum the rest of the day......
September 7th, 2007, 01:10 PM
there's a difference between public funded, whereby all schools are given equal cuts of tax dollars, and participant funded, whereby the schools are given a cut according to enrollment and the support of tax payers who decide where their money should go.
If I decide I want my kids homeschooled, then my tax dollars are funnelled into supporting my choice. I am entitled to moneys for texts, standardised testing, and even entitled to money to enroll my kids in a few extracurriculars.
The decision to put your kids into a seperate school should be no different.
there's a difference between public funded, whereby all schools are given equal cuts of tax dollars, and participant funded, whereby the schools are given a cut according to enrollment and the support of tax payers who decide where their money should go.
If I decide I want my kids homeschooled, then my tax dollars are funnelled into supporting my choice. I am entitled to moneys for texts, standardised testing, and even entitled to money to enroll my kids in a few extracurriculars.
The decision to put your kids into a seperate school should be no different.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,529
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
September 7th, 2007, 01:31 PM
Once upon a time, you had eight kids who all went to one school. Every kid paid a buck for the lessons. Schoolmarm got two bucks and there was six bucks left to fix the roof. One day a new preacher came into town and said all the kids of my faith have to learn with their own. Now, the kids saw they were different. Attendance was cut in half, there were two schoolmarms - and only two bucks left to fix the roof. One day one of the parents heard a kid use a word that wasn't of the tongue spoke at home. My kids deserve to learn in their own language. Now, there were three schoolmarms and not enough money to fix the roof at the old school. Then came the day someone spoke like a sinner. Another school marm was hired. Another roof leaked. Then, the rich kid had his shirt spoiled by a leak in the old school's roof. Daddy bought him a private school. Eight kids, who were once friends, suddenly realized they didn't know each other any more. They couldn't play together.
Wolf
Once upon a time, you had eight kids who all went to one school. Every kid paid a buck for the lessons. Schoolmarm got two bucks and there was six bucks left to fix the roof. One day a new preacher came into town and said all the kids of my faith have to learn with their own. Now, the kids saw they were different. Attendance was cut in half, there were two schoolmarms - and only two bucks left to fix the roof. One day one of the parents heard a kid use a word that wasn't of the tongue spoke at home. My kids deserve to learn in their own language. Now, there were three schoolmarms and not enough money to fix the roof at the old school. Then came the day someone spoke like a sinner. Another school marm was hired. Another roof leaked. Then, the rich kid had his shirt spoiled by a leak in the old school's roof. Daddy bought him a private school. Eight kids, who were once friends, suddenly realized they didn't know each other any more. They couldn't play together.
Wolf
Don't bother arguing, I KNOW!
Posts: 10,480
Location: The Evil Empire
Location: The Evil Empire
September 7th, 2007, 01:38 PM
Quoting lone wolf
What distinction is that?
Somebody sort of missed the distinction between Church and school? Why not further bleed a system we've already paid for?
Wolf
Wolf
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,529
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
September 7th, 2007, 01:46 PM
Wolf
Quoting I think not
They're not the same thing and there's not enough time to make everyone happy....
What distinction is that?
Wolf
Don't bother arguing, I KNOW!
Posts: 10,480
Location: The Evil Empire
Location: The Evil Empire
September 7th, 2007, 01:58 PM
Quoting lone wolf
OK, just wanted a clarification what you were referring to. Thanks.
They're not the same thing and there's not enough time to make everyone happy....
Wolf
Wolf
September 7th, 2007, 03:20 PM
Fort St John was a prime example... not enough kids to fund a Catholic school, so, no Catholic school. But rarely are there only 8 (figuratively speaking) children.
And on a side note... my kids play with 7 other children in our neighborhood, and none of them attend the same schools. What kind of person only lets their kids play at school?
Quoting lone wolf
And that makes total sense if you only have eight kids in a town to go to school.
Once upon a time, you had eight kids who all went to one school. Every kid paid a buck for the lessons. Schoolmarm got two bucks and there was six bucks left to fix the roof. One day a new preacher came into town and said all the kids of my faith have to learn with their own. Now, the kids saw they were different. Attendance was cut in half, there were two schoolmarms - and only two bucks left to fix the roof. One day one of the parents heard a kid use a word that wasn't of the tongue spoke at home. My kids deserve to learn in their own language. Now, there were three schoolmarms and not enough money to fix the roof at the old school. Then came the day someone spoke like a sinner. Another school marm was hired. Another roof leaked. Then, the rich kid had his shirt spoiled by a leak in the old school's roof. Daddy bought him a private school. Eight kids, who were once friends, suddenly realized they didn't know each other any more. They couldn't play together.
Wolf
Wolf
Fort St John was a prime example... not enough kids to fund a Catholic school, so, no Catholic school. But rarely are there only 8 (figuratively speaking) children.
And on a side note... my kids play with 7 other children in our neighborhood, and none of them attend the same schools. What kind of person only lets their kids play at school?
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,529
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
September 7th, 2007, 03:32 PM
It's not a literal story.... What kid gets away with a buck for lessons? The point is, you can have one or two good teaching facilities, or a lot of mediocre ones. Look at our kids' academic scores in comparison to the rest of the world. What kind of person only lets their kids play at school? Twenty-five years ago, my wife and I opened our home to kids in need of short-term emergency placement. Karrie ... I would not EVER want to be that sort of person....
Wolf
It's not a literal story.... What kid gets away with a buck for lessons? The point is, you can have one or two good teaching facilities, or a lot of mediocre ones. Look at our kids' academic scores in comparison to the rest of the world. What kind of person only lets their kids play at school? Twenty-five years ago, my wife and I opened our home to kids in need of short-term emergency placement. Karrie ... I would not EVER want to be that sort of person....
Wolf
September 7th, 2007, 03:47 PM
I'd rather my kids were in a smaller school, where all the teachers are familiar with the students, than in a shiny spanky new building with so many classes that teachers can only possibly have time to remember a quarter of the faces that roam their hallways.
Quoting lone wolf
You seem to be assuming that a fancy infrastructure and large building make a good school.
It's not a literal story.... What kid gets away with a buck for lessons? The point is, you can have one or two good teaching facilities, or a lot of mediocre ones. Look at our kids' academic scores in comparison to the rest of the world. What kind of person only lets their kids play at school? Twenty-five years ago, my wife and I opened our home to kids in need of short-term emergency placement. Karrie ... I would not EVER want to be that sort of person....
Wolf
Wolf
I'd rather my kids were in a smaller school, where all the teachers are familiar with the students, than in a shiny spanky new building with so many classes that teachers can only possibly have time to remember a quarter of the faces that roam their hallways.
A Mad Mulligan
Posts: 2,766
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Location: The Moonsine Cafe
Videos: 3
Location: The Moonsine Cafe
September 7th, 2007, 04:15 PM
Not to mention that there are standards for schools. You must have somethings in order to teach children and this will take away money from the already shy of funding public system. A building is a building and it costs what it costs to operate that building no matter if it's full or nearly empty.
They have been closing schools here in Ontario to consolidate buildings and keep them closer to full, even if that means busing kids all over to school and ending a central meeting facility in a community.
Not to mention, this also allows for any religion to claim a percentage of funding regardless of the religion they teach. What if it happens to be some thing not so acceptable to our "western" morals and traditions? How much argument and fighting will that cause among people of various groups who find ways to control the board?
There is no reason that all religions can't be taught in religious studies courses if that is what is needed. But I think there is a different agenda at work here and that is to get school to teach religion to students, not about religion, religion.
And Tory being the power hungry freak he is, stumbled into an old and clearly marked trap that everyone else knows enough to steer clear of.
Not to mention that there are standards for schools. You must have somethings in order to teach children and this will take away money from the already shy of funding public system. A building is a building and it costs what it costs to operate that building no matter if it's full or nearly empty.
They have been closing schools here in Ontario to consolidate buildings and keep them closer to full, even if that means busing kids all over to school and ending a central meeting facility in a community.
Not to mention, this also allows for any religion to claim a percentage of funding regardless of the religion they teach. What if it happens to be some thing not so acceptable to our "western" morals and traditions? How much argument and fighting will that cause among people of various groups who find ways to control the board?
There is no reason that all religions can't be taught in religious studies courses if that is what is needed. But I think there is a different agenda at work here and that is to get school to teach religion to students, not about religion, religion.
And Tory being the power hungry freak he is, stumbled into an old and clearly marked trap that everyone else knows enough to steer clear of.
