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School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

sanctus

#1Aug 9th, 2007

(McLean, Virginia) The School board in Arlington County, Virginia has agreed to allow a so-called ex-gay group to post material for high school students claiming homosexuality can be reversed.
It will, however be left to individual schools to accept the material if they have areas where other groups can post fliers.
The school system's decision settles a lawsuit by the group Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays, or PFOX.
The organization went to court claiming the school district had discriminated against it by refusing to distribute flyers. Arlington County Schools said it had a policy of turning down the distribution of material in high schools from all groups, although the policy was not in writing.
The school board has since put its policy of not accepting "backpack fliers" in writing, but the lawsuit continued.
PFOX says it will now press to be able to distribute its material in area middle schools.
The agreement reached between the two sides to end the legal action gives PFOX the same access given to other groups and says the group can submit fliers for distribution to middle and elementary school students if it wishes.
A PFOX spokesperson said it is not planning on targeting younger students at this time.
The school system said that it is not making a judgment on the message contained in the PFOX material.
The American Psychological Association last year issued a stinging rebuke of the so-called ex-gay movement.

"There is simply no sufficiently scientifically sound evidence that sexual orientation can be changed," it said in a statement.
The APA in 1974 ceased listing homosexuality as a mental disorder.
In June three former leaders of an international ministry that counsels gays to change their sexual orientation apologized for their efforts, saying that though they acted sincerely, their message had caused isolation, shame and fear.

missile

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 9th, 2007

This would be proper if all sides of the sexual identity question were presented to the students,otherwise it's just a quasi religious viewpoint & has no place being presented in the school systems.

Curiosity

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 9th, 2007

Wow how helpful is that - I mean even I know change to physical attribution can't be sublimated by shame or shunning - and why should it be changed at all?

It's as if we insist all skin variations be bleached to an acceptable pink.....

...through God.....

Way to start these young people off feeling 'really good' about themselves eh??? Big Bah on that one.

Unforgiven

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 9th, 2007

Well it certianly opens the doors for students to debate the issue openly and if the desire is there, the truth will win the day.

Impetus

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 9th, 2007

I saw a talk show interview with someone who was "cured" in some Christian clinic for reversing homosexuality. She said they basically put their "patients" into a state of denial and self-loathing.
She found herself near suicidal.

She needed to be cured of the cure!

Muz

sanctus

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 9th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by missile

This would be proper if all sides of the sexual identity question were presented to the students,otherwise it's just a quasi religious viewpoint & has no place being presented in the school systems.

The article has no mention of religious affiliation attached to the group of ex-homosexuals.

Curiosity

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 9th, 2007

Sanctus

The reference points are primarily of religious groups promoting denial of homosexuality, along with Narth who promote the psychological and frightening physical parts of homosexuality.

I think we can safely say whether a religious group was up front with their promotion, these are the groups who are actively fighting against recognition and acceptance of the homosexual people in our world.

Have we forgotten the lepers of old? These are our new lepers to the dogmatists.

Colpy

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 9th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by Curiosity

Sanctus

The reference points are primarily of religious groups promoting denial of homosexuality, along with Narth who promote the psychological and frightening physical parts of homosexuality.

I think we can safely say whether a religious group was up front with their promotion, these are the groups who are actively fighting against recognition and acceptance of the homosexual people in our world.

Have we forgotten the lepers of old? These are our new lepers to the dogmatists.

Yes, usually groups such as this are religious in nature.

My brother is gay, very religious, is currently working on a PhD in Divinity, and has worked extensively in the Anglican Church on the subject of gays and the Church. To him, one of the most disturbing aspects of this work was the absolute insistence of many "ex-gays" that ALL homosexuals can simply change into heterosexuals.

Not so.

People's sexuality falls on a scale somewhere between completely hetero and completely homo, although "complete" sexual desire at one end or the other is quite rare. So people express their sexuality for a number of reasons. Some are driven, and can not "change" their sexuality...........some, however, fall somewhere in the middle, and choose their path.........be it bisexuality or hetero or homosexuality. Certainly those in the middle can change........those out on the ends can not.

This is simply not a black-and-white issue. Unfortunately, folks that have sincerely switched can not be convinced there are others who can not switch, and folks that are solidly "on-side" can not be convinced that some can change their lives (and their preferences) with relative ease.

BTW, my brother is hard-core, and celibate.

Minority Observer84

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 9th, 2007

You know what really irks me ?
I don't understand this theist compulsion to force their views on other people . Whether a gay person is a member of your religious community or not he/she obviously does not think they are doing anything wrong , and since they are doing no harm to anyone why is it does this compulsion exist with some theists to make everyone "normal" ? I'am disgusted when I hear one of these people talking about how homosexuality is a mental disease Why this obvious level or hatred because someone is different ? I have my own answers but i want to hear yours .
As for theists i personally think they should keep their beliefs within their own community and leave the rest of us "lost" folk alone . What business of theirs is it anyway what two consenting adults do in private ?.

tracy

#10

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 9th, 2007

It's just so silly to me that people believe you can convert to a different sexuality.

Colpy

#11

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 9th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by Minority Observer84

You know what really irks me ?
I don't understand this theist compulsion to force their views on other people . Whether a gay person is a member of your religious community or not he/she obviously does not think they are doing anything wrong , and since they are doing no harm to anyone why is it does this compulsion exist with some theists to make everyone "normal" ? I'am disgusted when I hear one of these people talking about how homosexuality is a mental disease Why this obvious level or hatred because someone is different ? I have my own answers but i want to hear yours .
As for theists i personally think they should keep their beliefs within their own community and leave the rest of us "lost" folk alone . What business of theirs is it anyway what two consenting adults do in private ?.

First of all, it may be a mistake to think homosexuality is a mental disorder, but it is hardly hatred. Unless you think Tommy Douglas was a hater....... I wish people would be more careful with the use of the concept of hatred.........or fear.

As for the religious community, they have as much right to voice their opposition to such things as SSM as you do to express your support. Or do you subscribe to the view that only those that agree with you deserve a voice?

They also have every right to attempt to "convert" folks to their way of thinking......as does every environmentalist, Marxist, animal rights activist, vegetarian, or Logic 7, no matter how silly those views may seem to some.........

Colpy

#12

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 9th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by tracy

It's just so silly to me that people believe you can convert to a different sexuality.

I think it is simple, really.

If you are of a type that falls somewhere close to the centre of the spectrum of sexuality, yes, you can choose, and you choice become increasingly ingrained in your psyche as time passes.....but if you can choose one way, at least early on you can change that choice...........

Minority Observer84

#13

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 10th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy

First of all, it may be a mistake to think homosexuality is a mental disorder, but it is hardly hatred. Unless you think Tommy Douglas was a hater....... I wish people would be more careful with the use of the concept of hatred.........or fear.

Are you actually saying that evangelicals in the US do not hate homosexuals ? Have you ever heard them speak about them in their meetings and prayer sessions ?

Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy

As for the religious community, they have as much right to voice their opposition to such things as SSM as you do to express your support. Or do you subscribe to the view that only those that agree with you deserve a voice?

Not really . Gays are not asking to be married in a church . If a religious community refused to marry gays in their church based on their beliefs I would completley support them . But in the US (Thank Zeus we haven't imported this stupid idea) the debate is about same sex couples having equal rights and protections for their unions as straight couples .
If Religious people believe that gay marriage is wrong for them , that's fine it's up to them ,but obviously there are people out there who feel it is not wrong but some people will push their beliefs on others . This is a classic case , Religious community X believes that gay marriage is wrong and wants to ban gay marriage so that even people who don't share their beliefs can't get married . This Debate forces no one to do anything it merely gives those who want to equal rights and I don't see how anyone can argue for the favour of baning same sex marriage without falling into the trap of imposing their morals on others who obviously do not share them .

Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy

They also have every right to attempt to "convert" folks to their way of thinking......as does every environmentalist, Marxist, animal rights activist, vegetarian, or Logic 7, no matter how silly those views may seem to some.........

Sure they do . But this is double edged sword people of faith get angry and sometimes violent when people criticize their beliefs and demand "respect" for religion . I don't agree with this religion is an idea and entitled to no more respect than it earns on it's merits just because people believe it does not make untouchable .
Take this case as an example :
While visiting a campus of a famous univeristy here in ontario and waiting for my friend at a univeristy building , I came across a christian missionariy . He was an older man and was screaming his lungs out "spearding" the word . So naturally I ignored him , I kept waiting for my friend and reading a book . Eventually he comes up to me and asks me if I'am "saved " I reply "I didn't know the fire alarm had gone off thanks man " He smiles and gets all patronizing , doesn't work , so he tries terror and he tells me all about his imaginary hell again didn't work , so he starts trying to use logic , After a few minutes of beating every single point he brought up I started to question the logic of the trinity and his selective use of logic when it came to his religion he gets very mad and the univeristy staff walk me out ! Mind you he was the one yelling I was keeping my voice down and acting in a very civillised manner . Later the university sectuiry guy says it's not nice to insult somone's religion and that I should be more respectfull . All I did was pose questions , I never answered my own questions or insulted anyone apprently in some ciricles questioning religion = Insulting religion .
So yeah religious communities have the right to spread their ideology but they shouldn't try to suppress criticism in the name of respect .

GenGap

#14

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 12th, 2007

A little humor.

CPR is better then gay conversions.. whats next GAY sex education to a doll?

I do not think it appropriate, yet it is better getting information in an educational environment then in an alley at a corner store.

tamarin

#15

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 12th, 2007

Gays always hate it when you throw polygamy into the soup. If special interests are to be allowed access to our kids is it beyond the pale to allow adherents of polygamist communities to make their case in our schools? After all, Bountiful, BC has thrived without legal intervention for decades. No one in the province, including the RCMP, seems to have any idea on how to broach the matter before the courts. And in this the practice is de facto legal. Maybe the gays could speak to the kids each Monday and the polygamists every Friday. Sounds like it's worth a try!

karrie

#16

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 12th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by tamarin

Gays always hate it when you throw polygamy into the soup.

No they don't. I've had that exact discussion with gay friends and family of mine. If marriage is boiled down by the government to essentially be a contract between two people, agreeing to live together and respect one another, with all the religious overtones taken out of it, then what stops three or four or more people from signing said contract? Live and let live seems to be the resounding opinion. The homosexuals I've talked to will stand up for the rights of any adults to live the life they choose for themselves, regardless of whether it's right for them personally or not.

tamarin

#17

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 12th, 2007

Yes, they do. Polygamy was one of the key arguments thrown at the gay community when it started on its road to full marriage rights. Once marriage's tradtional meaning was modified who was to stop polygamists from applying too? It makes the Globe again this weekend. The polygamy issue is meant to prod the general community about the issue and definition of marriage and the possible consequences of change. It's been there all along.

karrie

#18

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 12th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by tamarin

Yes, they do. Polygamy was one of the key arguments thrown at the gay community when it started on its road to full marriage rights. Once marriage's tradtional meaning was modified who was to stop polygamists from applying too? It makes the Globe again this weekend. The polygamy issue is meant to prod the general community about the issue and definition of marriage and the possible consequences of change. It's been there all along.

I repeat what I said... gays don't always hate the issue of polygamy being brought up.

Plenty encourage the issue being raised.

Plenty advocate polygamy.

Saying 'gays always hate' it being brought up is bull. That's like saying all religious people hate gay marriage, or all white men are racists, or any other number of ridiculous generalizations people make.

s243a

#19

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 12th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by Minority Observer84

While visiting a campus of a famous univeristy here in ontario and waiting for my friend at a univeristy building , I came across a christian missionariy . He was an older man and was screaming his lungs out "spearding" the word . So naturally I ignored him , I kept waiting for my friend and reading a book . Eventually he comes up to me and asks me if I'am "saved " I reply "I didn't know the fire alarm had gone off thanks man " He smiles and gets all patronizing , doesn't work , so he tries terror and he tells me all about his imaginary hell again didn't work , so he starts trying to use logic , After a few minutes of beating every single point he brought up I started to question the logic of the trinity and his selective use of logic when it came to his religion he gets very mad and the univeristy staff walk me out ! Mind you he was the one yelling I was keeping my voice down and acting in a very civillised manner . Later the university sectuiry guy says it's not nice to insult somone's religion and that I should be more respectfull . All I did was pose questions , I never answered my own questions or insulted anyone apprently in some ciricles questioning religion = Insulting religion .
So yeah religious communities have the right to spread their ideology but they shouldn't try to suppress criticism in the name of respect .
Quote has been trimmed, See full post:

If you were so eager to argue with the priest, why didn't you argue with the security guard?

tamarin

#20

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 12th, 2007

" Plenty encourage the issue being raised.

Plenty advocate polygamy."

Gosh, and there's the other shoe dropping.

The gay community in general has always been sensitive about the polygamy issue as it has been used to muddy the waters again and again. And make the transition in public opinion more difficult for choice in their own lives. I wouldn't think, however, the general population out there is ready to think gays not only want modification they also want all obstacles to matrimonial choice removed. That indeed would be front page news.

karrie

#21

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 12th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by tamarin

I wouldn't think, however, the general population out there is ready to think gays not only want modification they also want all obstacles to matrimonial choice removed. That indeed would be front page news.

I don't think it would be front page news that people want open debate on policies and practises which are based in religious thought, not on the freedom to live one's adult life as you please.

tamarin

#22

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 12th, 2007

Well, that would certainly bring the Mormon community publicity it would rather not have. Those still opposed to gay union seem to think polygamy is one of the biggest bazookas they've got in their arsenal. I think gays sense what's going on and would rather the issue just went away.

karrie

#23

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 12th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by tamarin

Well, that would certainly bring the Mormon community publicity it would rather not have. Those still opposed to gay union seem to think polygamy is one of the biggest bazookas they've got in their arsenal. I think gays sense what's going on and would rather the issue just went away.

They may THINK it's a big bazooka in their arsenal, but the fact of the matter is, if you look at marriage as a technical, rather than a religious, thing, then the number of partners in that marriage isn't really an issue. Their bazooka is lacking ammo.

tamarin

#24

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 12th, 2007

"if you look at marriage as a technical, rather than a religious, thing, then the number of partners in that marriage isn't really an issue."
There's far more afoot than technicals here. As folks associated with polygamist communities both north and south of the border would quickly state: it's a social quagmire with most of the costs of social and family services borne by the region's taxpayers. It takes a mighty income to support ten wives and 30 children. Most polygamists don't have it.

karrie

#25

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 12th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by tamarin

"if you look at marriage as a technical, rather than a religious, thing, then the number of partners in that marriage isn't really an issue."
There's far more afoot than technicals here. As folks associated with polygamist communities both north and south of the border would quickly state: it's a social quagmire with most of the costs of social and family services borne by the region's taxpayers. It takes a mighty income to support ten wives and 30 children. Most polygamists don't have it.

Most marriages in Canada and the US have two working spouses... why would polygamists be any different, unless for religious reasons? I know if hubby were to take a second wife, it would free me up for a job. Handy if you ask me! Extra income, extra help around the house. Makes loads of sense.

Unforgiven

#26

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 12th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by karrie

Most marriages in Canada and the US have two working spouses... why would polygamists be any different, unless for religious reasons? I know if hubby were to take a second wife, it would free me up for a job. Handy if you ask me! Extra income, extra help around the house. Makes loads of sense.

What if second wife goes for the job and you get to stay home with all the kids?

I could see the potential for problems when wife A starts to think wife B is getting special attention.

karrie

#27

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 12th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by Unforgiven

What if second wife goes for the job and you get to stay home with all the kids?

I could see the potential for problems when wife A starts to think wife B is getting special attention.

Whatever works for the people involved. I'd stay at home if wifey B wants to get a job.

And fights over special attention happen in every family, regardless of the precise circumstances.

Minority Observer84

#28

Re: School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students

Aug 13th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by s243a

If you were so eager to argue with the priest, why didn't you argue with the security guard?

First of all I was not eager to argue with anyone , I was just sitting there reading a book when this guy came up to me . Secondly I doubt her was a Man of the cloth , it's been my experience that priests are for the most part refined and eloquent this man was neither a lot more like ray comfort than Desmond Tuto . Also I don't like talking philosophy with people who have no conception of basic rationality which is why I didn't other argue with the security guard also he had a taser