Must see fetal ultrasound before abortion


thomaska
#1
So, whats you guys' opinion on this?

COLUMBIA, S.C. --

Women seeking abortions in South Carolina would be required to view an ultrasound image of their fetus before the procedure under a proposal gaining support from lawmakers. If enacted, it would be the first law of its kind in the nation.
www.charlotteobserver.com/205/story/53792.html (external - login to view)

I think the usual exceptions for rape and incest apply.
 
westmanguy
#2
Good for S. Carolina.

Make the mothers see the baby's ultrasound and hear its heartbeat before they abort it.

I'm sorry but unless its rape or incest, I can never accept abortion.

Not these days when you can prevent pregancies so readily with condoms and BirthControl.
 
Curiosity
#3
I can't go along with this ...

Big Brother tactics are not going to change anyone's life view...

Choice and education are the only paths to follow when it comes to creating full knowledge and realization for individuals.

Government must stay out of the personal life of all people unless they are unable to physically or mentally carry on a normal life.

Caveat: Before everyone cries 'foul'....Abortion is not birth control. I have always maintained that.

However: Government must never be in the role of morality keeping.
 
TenPenny
#4
I heard one of the bill's sponsors, or creators, interviewed. From what he said, the women are not REQUIRED to view the ultrasound; the hospital is REQUIRED to offer it.

That said, he's quite blatantly trying to coerce women into changing their minds. And for those of you, like westmanguy, who think it's so simple, I have pity on you. You "can't accept" abortion; but that's okay, you won't have to. No one will force you to have one.
 
thomaska
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by CuriosityView Post

I can't go along with this ...

Big Brother tactics are not going to change anyone's life view...

Choice and education are the only paths to follow when it comes to creating full knowledge and realization for individuals.

Government must stay out of the personal life of all people unless they are unable to physically or mentally carry on a normal life.

Caveat: Before everyone cries 'foul'....Abortion is not birth control. I have always maintained that.

However: Government must never be in the role of morality keeping.

I tend to agree with you on this.

I think the ladies should be allowed to do as they please with respect to maternal rights. Afterall, I also believe theres a special place for those women who wantonly slughter those "cell masses" because it just doesn't feel as good with a condom. Karma and all that.
 
talloola
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by thomaskaView Post

I tend to agree with you on this.

I think the ladies should be allowed to do as they please with respect to maternal rights. Afterall, I also believe theres a special place for those women who wantonly slughter those "cell masses" because it just doesn't feel as good with a condom. Karma and all that.

There are numerous reasons women "choose" abortion, and, just where would that special place be.
 
thomaska
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by talloolaView Post

There are numerous reasons women "choose" abortion, and, just where would that special place be.

Not talking about the woman who has one or two abortions in their lifetime...

Oh I dunno...maybe the particular circle of hell should correlate with however many times they've chosen abortion over condoms. Ya know, after the 7th or 8th abortion, they should be able to figure out whats causing that pesky menstrual period thing to stop.

Is there really a difference between killing a baby with an abortion, and killing it with a bomb?
 
selfactivated
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by thomaskaView Post

So, whats you guys' opinion on this?

COLUMBIA, S.C. --

Women seeking abortions in South Carolina would be required to view an ultrasound image of their fetus before the procedure under a proposal gaining support from lawmakers. If enacted, it would be the first law of its kind in the nation.
www.charlotteobserver.com/205/story/53792.html (external - login to view)

I think the usual exceptions for rape and incest apply.


I actually like this idea. My first sono was to say the least impactive. Wish I still had the picture.
 
hermanntrude
#9
Ultrasounds of babies at abortion ages (usually very young, yes i know there are exceptions) will be blurry and show nothing very much anyway. For instance when it's 8 weeks old it's about 1.5 cm long. Remember the last image of an ultrasound you saw? that would have been in the middle of the second trimester, around 14-20 weeks. remember how hard it was to pick out the details?

Quote: Originally Posted by thomaska

Is there really a difference between killing a baby with an abortion, and killing it with a bomb?

there's a difference between killing an embryo and killing a baby.
 
selfactivated
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by thomaskaView Post

Not talking about the woman who has one or two abortions in their lifetime...

Oh I dunno...maybe the particular circle of hell should correlate with however many times they've chosen abortion over condoms. Ya know, after the 7th or 8th abortion, they should be able to figure out whats causing that pesky menstrual period thing to stop.

Is there really a difference between killing a baby with an abortion, and killing it with a bomb?

We create our own hells in the here and now......believe me.
 
thomaska
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by hermanntrudeView Post

Ultrasounds of babies at abortion ages (usually very young, yes i know there are exceptions) will be blurry and show nothing very much anyway. For instance when it's 8 weeks old it's about 1.5 cm long. Remember the last image of an ultrasound you saw? that would have been in the middle of the second trimester, around 14-20 weeks. remember how hard it was to pick out the details?



there's a difference between killing an embryo and killing a baby.


Because that embryo might have turned out to be a salamander right?
 
hermanntrude
#12
no. The embryo is much less independant than a baby, is essentially non-sentient and almost entirely part of the mother. At later stages of development the line becomes greyer. Honestly we've had this discussion before let's save it for an abortion thread, eh?
 
talloola
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by thomaskaView Post

Not talking about the woman who has one or two abortions in their lifetime...

Oh I dunno...maybe the particular circle of hell should correlate with however many times they've chosen abortion over condoms. Ya know, after the 7th or 8th abortion, they should be able to figure out whats causing that pesky menstrual period thing to stop.

Is there really a difference between killing a baby with an abortion, and killing it with a bomb?

I would think any woman who has had 7 or 8 abortions, has serious emotional problems, and her doctor should be very concerned and helpfull for her, and serious discussion
about "tieing tubes" is long overdue.

A comment comparing abortions to bombs is far too general, and everything left out of that comment
is what's important.
 
tracy
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

That said, he's quite blatantly trying to coerce women into changing their minds.

This sums it up for me. I don't appreciate people trying to coerce women either way. They don't need an ultrasound to decide one way or the other. Like hermanntrude said, at that point it doesn't show anything anyways.
 
selfactivated
#15
being educated isnt being coerced. You KNOW my stand on abortion but I personally rather make a choice on all the *word* than on an emotional quick fix.

*word*= my mind cant think
 
hermanntrude
#16
evidence? data? factors?

flamingoes? parsnips? cases of elephantiasis?
 
TenPenny
#17
Being forced to look at an ultrasound (which I don't believe is the case, but that's the premise this thread started with) isn't being educated, any more than being raped is.

"I know you've made your decision, but I'm going to make you look at this in case I can change your mind"
 
tracy
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by selfactivatedView Post

being educated isnt being coerced. You KNOW my stand on abortion but I personally rather make a choice on all the *word* than on an emotional quick fix.

*word*= my mind cant think

So would you think it's ok to "educate" them the other way? Should we force them to meet with parents who regret they had their kids? That's a lot more educational than a blurry picture on an ultrasound which looks nothing like a baby, but it's still clearly wrong to do. The point of forcing women to have an ultrasound is obviously to delay the abortion and hope they change their mind. In all aspects of health care we have to respect the patient's wishes. If they make an informed decision to abort, that's their right. They don't have to see an ultrasound to make that decision an informed one so it's wrong to force it on them.

I used to say that parents who wanted to circumcize their sons should have to see a video of it being done beforehand, but I recognize that was my bias speaking. They don't need that to make an informed decision and women don't need an ultrasound to know if they want an abortion.
 
selfactivated
#19
I think its a harmless way of showing whats going on inside their body thats what I think. I didnt say lecture or prod Im saying any good doc should inform his patiant what hisd patients body is forming......its just MY opinion
 
tracy
#20
This is what we're talking about:

pregnancy.about.com/cs/ultras...spic1aaaax.htm (external - login to view)

pregnancy.about.com/cs/ultras...pic1aaaaab.htm (external - login to view)

I can't even make out a baby. Can you guys?
 
TenPenny
#21
I'm pretty damn sure that by the time someone shows up for an abortion they have a pretty good idea of what's going on. In my day, as they say, the kids having abortions at a young age were the brighter ones, who made a mistake. The stupid ones kept the kids, because that was how you either "got a man", or got on welfare. Which, of course, is bad for society as a whole, evolution-wise. If you believe in that. So, logically, if you believe in evolution, you should be against abortion; however, the people who are against abortion are typically anti-evolution, too. Hmmm. I'm confused, must have another drink.

I think they should show the damn ultrasounds in high school, I mean junior high school.
 
selfactivated
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by tracyView Post

This is what we're talking about:

pregnancy.about.com/cs/ultras...spic1aaaax.htm (external - login to view)

pregnancy.about.com/cs/ultras...pic1aaaaab.htm (external - login to view)

I can't even make out a baby. Can you guys?

So again what harm does it do to show them that?
 
selfactivated
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

I'm pretty damn sure that by the time someone shows up for an abortion they have a pretty good idea of what's going on. In my day, as they say, the kids having abortions at a young age were the brighter ones, who made a mistake. The stupid ones kept the kids, because that was how you either "got a man", or got on welfare. Which, of course, is bad for society as a whole, evolution-wise. If you believe in that. So, logically, if you believe in evolution, you should be against abortion; however, the people who are against abortion are typically anti-evolution, too. Hmmm. I'm confused, must have another drink.

I think they should show the damn ultrasounds in high school, I mean junior high school.

Call me dumb...........
 
Curiosity
#24
Women have sooooooooo many options now I can't comprehend why there are still so many abortions being performed other then those of medical necessity.

I still wonder why science hasn't perfected tubal ligation which can be reversed for both males and females.... with all the other medical miracles available from science/medicine...what is the problem... ethics?

How could assured prevention be worse than the complexity of abortion which continues to be argued... with both sides having valid issues ?

I do know that interference from authorities or government is not the answer. This is a personal
issue which must be considered from a personal standpoint, not coerced.
 
tracy
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by selfactivatedView Post

So again what harm does it do to show them that?

If you've ever known women who have an abortion, they generally would like to get it done and over with as soon as possible. Scheduling an ultrasound delays things. I don't see why they should be delayed if they don't want to be.

Patients are still the ones to decide what they want, it's part of them controlling their own bodies. We aren't allowed to force them to listen to or look at anything they don't want to. It wouldn't hurt for the doctor to educate me about breast self examination when I go in to have my ear ache treated, but that if isn't what I want then my doctor has no right to make me sit and listen to it. I don't see why this is any different.

What's the rationale for forcing them to look at those pictures? Can you truly say they are educational when you look at them?
 
china
#26
Curiosity,
Government must stay out of the personal life of all people unless they are unable to physically or mentally carry on a normal life._____________________________________________ ___

Killing your own baby is not "carrying on a normal life".
 
selfactivated
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by tracyView Post

If you've ever known women who have an abortion, they generally would like to get it done and over with as soon as possible. Scheduling an ultrasound delays things. I don't see why they should be delayed if they don't want to be.

Patients are still the ones to decide what they want, it's part of them controlling their own bodies. We aren't allowed to force them to listen to or look at anything they don't want to. It wouldn't hurt for the doctor to educate me about breast self examination when I go in to have my ear ache treated, but that if isn't what I want then my doctor has no right to make me sit and listen to it. I don't see why this is any different.

What's the rationale for forcing them to look at those pictures? Can you truly say they are educational when you look at them?

A sono is part of a medical exam for a pg patient ....whats out of place? Your eexample of the earach has nothing in common but a sono is a part of what a normal exam could encompass. Apples and oranges
 
Curiosity
#28
China

There are some women or very young girls who become pregnant who are unable to give their intellectual consent because they may have fragile intellect or some other conflicting disability where it would be advisable for them to abort....that is when
government intervention would be necessary, along with their parents if it was possible.

Your statement: Killing your own baby is not "carrying on a normal life"....... is a good point made, however unfortunately what is normal these days is the concept that the early stages of gestation, an embryo is not a life-form.

What is normal to many women is post-abortion leaves a scar many of them carry for the remainder of their lives. I cannot stand in judgment for any of the women who make that difficult decision.

Some may not ever carry on a 'normal life' from that moment on, but what do you suggest they do?
Commit suicide? Spend time in jail? What?

And how does the sperm donor fit into this scenario.

I certainly would stand in judgment of any government who took it upon itself to make that determination for its female population.
 
tracy
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by selfactivatedView Post

A sono is part of a medical exam for a pg patient ....whats out of place? Your eexample of the earach has nothing in common but a sono is a part of what a normal exam could encompass. Apples and oranges

An ultrasound is not a required part of any pregnancy exam or even a normal part of it at 6 weeks. The first doctor's visit for a pregnant woman is usually just a blood test. Many women opt out of doing even the "routine" ones nowadays for fears that their safety hasn't been proven.

I notice you didn't answer me though. Do you really think those pictures are educational? Since it's clearly possible to educate a woman about what's going on in her body with words, why should she be forced to wait, schedule an ultrasound, have that done, then schedule an abortion? I bet that'll take two weeks and the abortion opponents will insist she should have a new ultrasound done because the fetus has changed so much in those two weeks that we have to educate her anew.
 
TenPenny
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by selfactivatedView Post

Call me dumb...........

Why? Was your motivation to keep your man, or to collect welfare? If not, then you don't fall into my category (which, granted, wasn't phrased very well). Must be the scotch again. I wasn't saying the stupid kids were the only ones who kept their babies, or at least that's not what I was trying to say, it's that they were the ones keeping them for the wrong reasons.

I don't use 'dumb,' because it means 'unable to speak.'
 

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