Quebec bashing/Dawson tragedy

wallyj

just special
May 7, 2006
1,230
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not in Kansas anymore
Yes,I think she went too far in linking the jerk's alienation with the culture. Also,we had a nutbar open fire here in Alberta a few years ago that wasn't mentioned. Typical reporting these days,if it doesn't support your leanings,omit it.
 

tamarin

House Member
Jun 12, 2006
3,197
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Oshawa ON
Hmmm, I had forgotten - if I had ever learned it - that Marc Lepine was Muslim. Kimveer, a vampire, looks Muslim. Maybe we've seen the opening shots in a slowly emerging war against western society that's found its initial Canadian legs in Quebec.
Scary stuff.
Then again Jan Wong's written so many silly articles over the years you really don't know when she's serious.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
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Saint John, N.B.
As much as I am disgusted by the Quebecois view of the world, and of national politics viv a vis gun control, Jan Wong is a complete drooling moron.

Racism has NOTHING to do with this.

One could argue that the Montreal Massacre had a lot to do with Muslim culture and the prevailing attitude towards women therein, but that has nothing to do with racism or Quebec either.
 

sanch

Electoral Member
Apr 8, 2005
647
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Social isolation of the sort Wong describes is hardly a new phenomena . Canada is a country defined by group identities and so any individuals who do not have a recognized place might feel a certain amount of isolation and alienation. All Wong is saying is that in recent history there have been 3 cases with individuals from this largely unrecognized group. This would be the common denominator and it s probably worth looking at.

The problem as I see it in Canada is the way the government recognizes new groups. The first such group would have been the Métis and they were recognized and given land grants and certain rights. But since then Canada really does not have a system to recognize newly formed groups unless they promote themselves like the gay community.

If you look at the US you will see that their system accommodates a much broader array of identities plus mixed heritages are recognized. Because of intermarriage the mixed category is growing quickly in both the US and Canada. Canada’s problem is that it has no way of recognizing and integrating groups or individuals on the social fringe.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
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California
I thought Kimveer was of East Indian heritage. Seems to me it was in one of the articles on that original thread.

Social isolation occurs in countries who operate smoothly when the majority rules - even for the silliest of things such as behavior and fashion - affecting the impressionable young - morphing into life necessity for the teen years and early adult years - until one finds his or her comfortable identity.

We cannot escape the huge fingerpointing of advertising in our world: the right clothes, the right activities, the right transportation, the right neighborhood, the right home, the right standing in peer groups, etc. etc. and always necessary - the one "star" quality of being better than others in something such as sports or music etc.

Peer pressure - being a non-conformist can turn a sensitive child - especially a child who lacks social interraction in the home - and who may be exceptionally bright as to examine all kinds of nuances other kids would not bother with - being bullied - having feelings hurt more readily - and preferring self isolation rather than company - all contribute to what we
see in a disordered personality Kimveer had found to be his "quality".

He became a god in his goth world on his website - which afforded him privacy to be anything he could get his membership to believe - to the point he believed it of himself - and went on to prove it.

Reading his words however from our "normal" place - it is pitiful that there was no intervention and if his parents didn't notice anything wrong, it is probably true they went through his life not noticing him at all as long as he was "quiet" and didn't bother them.
 

shannon

Nominee Member
Jul 10, 2006
97
0
6
Montreal, Canada
sanch said:
If you look at the US you will see that their system accommodates a much broader array of identities plus mixed heritages are recognized. Because of intermarriage the mixed category is growing quickly in both the US and Canada. Canada’s problem is that it has no way of recognizing and integrating groups or individuals on the social fringe.

Interesting point. As Canadians, we should be more welcoming to our citizens of different races. One way to do this is to adopt a melting pot approach similar to the way our neighbors down south handle multiculturalism and immigration. If we encourage new immigrants to adopt our culture instead of ghettoizing themselves into their own little worlds, they will surely feel more welcome into their new society. They'll feel like they are one of us and not alienated. This approach has worked well in the US, why shouldn't Canada adopt it as well?
 

Andem

dev
Mar 24, 2002
5,643
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Larnaka
shannon said:
sanch said:
If you look at the US you will see that their system accommodates a much broader array of identities plus mixed heritages are recognized. Because of intermarriage the mixed category is growing quickly in both the US and Canada. Canada’s problem is that it has no way of recognizing and integrating groups or individuals on the social fringe.

Interesting point. As Canadians, we should be more welcoming to our citizens of different races. One way to do this is to adopt a melting pot approach similar to the way our neighbors down south handle multiculturalism and immigration. If we encourage new immigrants to adopt our culture instead of ghettoizing themselves into their own little worlds, they will surely feel more welcome into their new society. They'll feel like they are one of us and not alienated. This approach has worked well in the US, why shouldn't Canada adopt it as well?

Oh really? Who says it works so well.. was it the statistics?

Demographic-based incarceration rates:
 

shannon

Nominee Member
Jul 10, 2006
97
0
6
Montreal, Canada
Andem said:
shannon said:
sanch said:
If you look at the US you will see that their system accommodates a much broader array of identities plus mixed heritages are recognized. Because of intermarriage the mixed category is growing quickly in both the US and Canada. Canada’s problem is that it has no way of recognizing and integrating groups or individuals on the social fringe.

Interesting point. As Canadians, we should be more welcoming to our citizens of different races. One way to do this is to adopt a melting pot approach similar to the way our neighbors down south handle multiculturalism and immigration. If we encourage new immigrants to adopt our culture instead of ghettoizing themselves into their own little worlds, they will surely feel more welcome into their new society. They'll feel like they are one of us and not alienated. This approach has worked well in the US, why shouldn't Canada adopt it as well?

Oh really? Who says it works so well.. was it the statistics?

Demographic-based incarceration rates:

Those stats although correct, reflect for the most part, native born Americans. The melting pot approach is used to integrate newly arrived immigrants into mainstream US society and not alienate them into scattered pockets of different ethnic groups. From what I've heard, this approach has been successful.
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
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California
I don't know that immigrants are better assimilated here or not. The neighbourhoods in my area generally have one group or another as the predominant group. We have our Mexican area, our Cambodian area, etc. I really don't see how it's that different from Canada. The governmental policy of melting pot or mosaic doesn't do anything to affect people's individual behavior and it seems to be human nature for immigrants to settle among other immigrants from the same country.
 

tamarin

House Member
Jun 12, 2006
3,197
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38
Oshawa ON
Looking at the graph it looks like the black and Hispanic communities have some explaining to do. They'd better make it good!
 

Researcher87

Electoral Member
Sep 20, 2006
496
2
18
In Monsoon West (B.C)
What many outsiders don't realize is how alienating the decades-long linguistic struggle has been in the once-cosmopolitan city. It hasn't just taken a toll on long-time anglophones, it's affected immigrants, too. To be sure, the shootings in all three cases were carried out by mentally disturbed individuals. But what is also true is that in all three cases, the perpetrator was not pure laine, the argot for a "pure" francophone. Elsewhere, to talk of racial "purity" is repugnant. Not in Quebec.

In 1989, Marc Lepine shot and killed 14 women and wounded 13 others at the University of Montreal's École Polytechnique. He was a francophone, but in the eyes of pure laine Quebeckers, he was not one of them, and would never be. He was only half French-Canadian. He was also half Algerian, a Muslim, and his name was Gamil Gharbi. Seven years earlier, after the Canadian Armed Forces rejected his application under that name, he legally changed his name to .

Valery Fabrikant, an engineering professor, was an immigrant from Russia. In 1992, he shot four colleagues and wounded one other at Concordia University's faculty of engineering after learning he would not be granted tenure.

This week's killer, Kimveer Gill, was, like Marc Lepine, Canadian-born and 25. On his blog, he described himself as of "Indian" origin. (In their press conference, however, the police repeatedly referred to Mr. Gill as of "Canadian" origin.)

Racism what?? Who really cares if Marc Lepine was Muslim or if Kimveer Gill is east indian or indian. Does it really matter, or the professor that killed four others is Russian. they were disturbed people and it wasn't picked up.
 

shannon

Nominee Member
Jul 10, 2006
97
0
6
Montreal, Canada
Re: RE: Quebec bashing/Dawson tragedy

tracy said:
I don't know that immigrants are better assimilated here or not. The neighbourhoods in my area generally have one group or another as the predominant group. We have our Mexican area, our Cambodian area, etc. I really don't see how it's that different from Canada. The governmental policy of melting pot or mosaic doesn't do anything to affect people's individual behavior and it seems to be human nature for immigrants to settle among other immigrants from the same country.

I was referring to the legal immigrants that settle in the US, not those who hide in the shadows. California would probably be an exception to the rule as the state has a disproportionate number of illegals. From what I've noticed through personal experience, US immigrants from whatever country (Latin America, Russia, China, South Africa ...etc) tend to embrace US culture rather quickly.

The way to welcome immigrants is to make them feel welcome. By encouraging them to adopt our culture, immigrants will not feel alienated.
 

Nuggler

kind and gentle
Feb 27, 2006
11,596
140
63
Backwater, Ontario.
I think that Wong is Wong. (Is that racist?) Certainly not PC.

Anyway, for what it's worth.

You got yer nutbars who kill people. The bell tower in ......Texas?...way back
Marc Lepine..........the godfather of our firearms registration law.
Ted Bundy......not an immigrant....But a genuine nutbar.
Green River killer.
Columbine.
Pig farmer in BC
Drive by shootings
Caligula
Nero
Hitler

ON and on we could go.

If one happens to be a twisted dipshit for whatever reason, he or she is gonna hurt people. Always been that way. Some hurt a couple. Some really get into it with automatic weapons et al.

I don't know why we're always so surprised given the dichotomy of society.

Some folks just don't handle it well. Thank God for DNA. At least sometimes the good guys catch the perp.

Tough for the rest of us.

Eh?
 

Aerke

New Member
Aug 22, 2006
1
0
1
Montreal
I am a immigrant. I live in Montreal, of course I should learn franch but I love to, Quebecers are so kind and warm. So I love this city and I love Canada.
Yes, many immigrants make there own groups, I think language is the big problem,many immigrants can not speak well in English or Franch, at the begining ,it's little difficult to communicate with locals and sometimes we are a little shy to speak English or Franch so bad. I think we should study more hard and be more courageously.
We are all canadians and we are a part of this country. we should open our arms and welcome our friends. I do believe this.
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
3,500
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California
Re: RE: Quebec bashing/Dawson tragedy

shannon said:
tracy said:
I don't know that immigrants are better assimilated here or not. The neighbourhoods in my area generally have one group or another as the predominant group. We have our Mexican area, our Cambodian area, etc. I really don't see how it's that different from Canada. The governmental policy of melting pot or mosaic doesn't do anything to affect people's individual behavior and it seems to be human nature for immigrants to settle among other immigrants from the same country.

I was referring to the legal immigrants that settle in the US, not those who hide in the shadows. California would probably be an exception to the rule as the state has a disproportionate number of illegals. From what I've noticed through personal experience, US immigrants from whatever country (Latin America, Russia, China, South Africa ...etc) tend to embrace US culture rather quickly.

The way to welcome immigrants is to make them feel welcome. By encouraging them to adopt our culture, immigrants will not feel alienated.

I'm referring to legal immigrants too. First generation immigrants tend to settle where other immigrants from their country have settled. That's why we have Thai town, Chinatown, etc. It doesn't mean they won't assimilate to an extent, but they don't give everything up to be "American" either. I spent yesterday at the British pub with an English friend who wanted to just be around other Brits for a day. I don't think Canada is too different. Really, I think that's completely understandable. Go to any non-English speaking country with a large ex-pat community and you'll see how they have formed their own community within their adopted country. It doesn't mean they won't become a part of their adopted country. It just means they aren't completely new people simply by virtue of having a new address.
 

iARTthere4iam

Electoral Member
Jul 23, 2006
533
3
18
Pointy Rocks
So is a Canadian-born E Indian, Canadian? Yes. Born and raised in Canada. I don't get it. I knew lots of white Canadian born guys who ended up living as criminials and generally not succeeding in society, but because this Kimveer had relatives from India he didn't integrate into Canadian society? Now because this murderer is a visible minority we all are guilty because he did not integrate? Bullshit. Lots of people fall by the wayside because life can be difficult. There is nothing to say who will snap and do something like this. I would bet dollars for donuts that Kimveer was never violent before this incident, this is not the action of someone with any healthy outlet for his agression. He snapped. Suicide by going postal. His Fu*k You to the world as he goes out.