Islam and the spread of enlightend idea's

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Finder

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Dec 18, 2005
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http://www.memritv.org/Favorites.asp#
(It's the one on the top of the page)

Well since many of us here have been noticing the swing to this conservative islamism in the middle east, I thought it would be nice for some of us to see what is being discussed in the open there. Please take the time to read everything in the video clip and what she says to the cleric.

http://www.memritv.org/Favorites.asp#

edit: the links go to the favs section. It should still be number one. It's really really good


edit two: Ideas not idea's =-/
 
O

Outta here

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Jul 8, 2005
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Hi Finder

I clicked both links and only got the pic - nothing to read and nothing to hear??? I am quite interested in learning more about the middle east - I have a friend who is planning on moving back there this summer, and I'm concerned for his well being... not sure informing myself is the best way to alleviate my concern, but if you find a way to get a functioning link going, I'll come back and take a look...
 
Sassylassie

Sassylassie

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Finder; with all the Evil that Muslim Extreamist are spreading in the Middle East/America with their Doctorine/beliefs this Religion Scares most of us. If you want to enlight explain the positives please?
 
F

Finder

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With all due respect, and I mean that because extremist Islam scares a lot of people including myself. But Extremist christianity and Jewdism is just as scary, I've seen images from the 60's 70's right up into the 90's of Isrealis under orders to hurt, breck bones of and torment Palistinians and we all know the extrems of christianity and what they have done around the world.

What we have to reliece here is that there are many, in the middle east who are fighting for a more seculer world view of Islam, like that of the west and christianity. By fearing, hating and generally throwing our middle fingure up at all of Islam we are playing into the hands of the extremists. People like George W Bush Jr have made extremists more powerful, making there election in a handful of middle eastern nations possible while just a few years ago these forces were weakening.

Instead of attacking Islam in general, we have to educate ourselves in seculer forces at work in these nations, and how opening dialog and not dropping bombs will moves these nations from Conservative, to the Liberal and social democratic nations we have in the west. By dropping bombs or attacking with the sword we are forcing many of these nations into a corner where they are forced to fight. Also economically and by war by increasing poverity is a well known breeding ground for terrorism.

This woman who bravely takes on this cleric are the type of people who are going to change the islamic world, not to make it unislamic, but to make it seculer. She dominates the debate, with her intelligence and wisdom and you can almost feel sorry for the cleric who is just out classed and his only real retort being is "your a heretic so why should I debate with you" in which she answers a long winded reply.
 
O

Outta here

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well there's one thing that just stood out to me in that interview. I liked it so much, I'm gonna "borrow" it for my sig line for awhile!




edited to remove double sig line
 
S

Said1

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Apr 18, 2005
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Finder said:
this is sad how yet again very little interest in this topic, and tns of interest in bashing!
Click to expand...

No offense, but he isn't saying anything earth shattering. Is that the entire transcript?
 
Dexter Sinister

Dexter Sinister

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Dr. Ibrahim Al-Khouli: Are you a heretic?

Wafa Sultan: You can say whatever you like. I am a secular human being who does not believe in the supernatural...

Dr. Ibrahim Al-Khouli: If you are a heretic, there is no point in rebuking you, since you have blasphemed against Islam, the Prophet, and the Koran...

That pretty much sums it up for me. Dr. Al-Khouli might as well have put it this way: we have the absolute truth, we're right, you're wrong and thus damned for all time, so we don't have to take you seriously or even care at all about you, and the sooner you die the better off the world will be. In fact, maybe we'll just help you along on that...

That's the kind of thinking that flew commercial jets into the WTC. The Doctor is wrong there, completely, absolutely, totally, wrong. He's entitled to believe whatever he wants, but he doesn't really get it: the rules of his faith don't apply outside the circle of people who believe as he does. That's where religious belief leads people astray, when they become convinced they've got a lock on some absolute truth, and that's what generates the coercive and manipulative aspects of every organized religion I've ever investigated. And it's why I rejected them all.

That's not a moderate Muslim. That's an extremist who believes he knows some absolute truth and is entitled to force it on others. Christianity went down that road once too, and it leads nowhere but to death and destruction. There are still a few on the lunatic fringe (Jack Chick, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson...) like that. If the Enlightenment and the scientific revolution of the last few centuries have taught us anything, it is that all knowledge but the trivial is provisional to some degree. Absolute certainty is simply not generally achievable, and to believe you're entitled to be scornful of, discriminate against, even murder, people who don't agree with your version of absolute truth is the height of arrogance and folly.
 
F

Finder

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Yes it doesn't matter that he didn't even try to debate her. As you can see she dominated the whole debate anyways and he knew he couldn't beat her. In fact he was there to debate her and he what she was, but her arguments were so convincing and so undeniable that all he could do was just utter those words.

With more focus on these discussions in these nations these clerics will not be able to win over converts (as long as they are not being bombed by the americans) by just dismissing the other person when they have come to debate them. Indeed it made him look like a moron by doing so. However with these debates spreads the idea reason and that is what must be done, not bombing the F*ck out of these nations
 
Johnny Utah

Johnny Utah

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Sassylassie said:
Finder; with all the Evil that Muslim Extreamist are spreading in the Middle East/America with their Doctorine/beliefs this Religion Scares most of us. If you want to enlight explain the positives please?
Click to expand...
It's those Islamic Extremists who used the Muslims reaction to the Prophet Mohammed cartoons to plan and organize the riots all over the World. It's the Islamic Extremists who planned and organized the France riots and some of Europe.

Islam is at war with itself between the Extremeists and the ones who don't believe in committing Terrorist Acts or riots in the name of Islam because they believe Islam is against such acts.
 
F

Finder

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Johnny Utah, and you are right, but I'll add, that by bombing them we are not helping those forces of moderation, reason and enlightenment, but those of "evildoer-islamo-fascists" as many people in this forum like to call them.
 
jimmoyer

jimmoyer

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Well, in the case of Iraq, the only unifying force we
might hope for this Phoenix nation to have, is a disgust
and realization that foreign jihadists and al Qaeda
have no wish for this country of Iraq to work.

It is their opportunism and desire to wish Iraq
to remain in turmoil. It is their wish to deny
security and stability ---- the prime necessity
for any society to function.
 
Johnny Utah

Johnny Utah

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Finder said:
Johnny Utah, and you are right, but I'll add, that by bombing them we are not helping those forces of moderation, reason and enlightenment, but those of "evildoer-islamo-fascists" as many people in this forum like to call them.
Click to expand...
Well if there was no War in Iraq the voices of moderation would still be fighting to control Islam's place in the world.

Muslims who live in the west peacefully are hated by the Extremists because the Extremeists believe they are going against everything Islam stands for yet at the same time Extremeists used Islam as their justification for 9/11. The night before 9/11 the hijackers were at a stripper bar drinking, those acts go against what Islam preaches yet the Extremeists were using Islam for their justification.

Do The Math and you will see what mess Islam is in, it's the Extremists vs the voices of moderation for control of Islam's place in the World.
 
Johnny Utah

Johnny Utah

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Re: RE: Islam and the spread of enlightend idea's

jimmoyer said:
That's the riddle for the moderates. They won't
be as strident in condemning the extremists.
Click to expand...
The World has been waiting for the moderates to take a stand and speak out against Terrorist Acts done in the name of Islam since 9/11. When they don't the non Islamic World sees Islam as agreeing with the Terrorist Acts done in it's name.

The Moderates don't speak out because they fear for their lives and the Extremists would issue Fatwas against them.
 
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