Hall of Fame Member
Posts: 10,505 
Location: The Evil Empire
Location: The Evil Empire
February 19th, 2006, 11:05 PM
VIENNA, Austria - A right-wing British historian goes on trial Monday on charges of denying the Holocaust occurred — a crime punishable by up to 10 years' imprisonment in this country once run by the Nazis.
The trial of David Irving opens amid fresh — and fierce — debate over freedom of expression in Europe, where the printing and reprinting of unflattering cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad has triggered violent protests worldwide.
Irving, 67, has been in custody since his arrest in November on charges stemming from two speeches he gave in Austria in 1989 in which he was accused of denying the Nazis' extermination of 6 million Jews. An eight-member jury and a panel of three judges will hear the proceedings, which officials said could produce a verdict as early as Monday.
Within two weeks of his arrest, Irving asserted through his lawyer that he now acknowledges the existence of Nazi-era gas chambers.
The historian had tried to win release on bail, but a Vienna court refused, saying it considered him a flight risk.
His lawyer, Elmar Kresbach, said last month the Third Reich historian was getting up to 300 pieces of fan mail a week from supporters around the world, and that while in detention he was writing his memoirs under the working title, "Irving's War."
Irving was arrested Nov. 11 in the southern Austrian province of Styria on a warrant issued in 1989 and charged under a federal law that makes it a crime to publicly diminish, deny or justify the Holocaust.
In the past, however, he has claimed that Adolf Hitler knew little if anything about the Holocaust, and has been quoted as saying there was "not one shred of evidence" the Nazis carried out their "Final Solution" to exterminate the Jewish population on such a massive scale.
"What was he doing in Austria? God only knows. Possibly looking for an audience," Austrian state television said in a pre-trial commentary.
Vienna's national court, where the trial is being held, ordered the balcony gallery closed to prevent projectiles from being thrown down at the bench, the newspaper Die Presse reported Sunday.
It quoted officials as saying they were bracing for Irving's supporters to give him the Nazi salute or shout out pro-Hitler slogans during the trial, which will continue into Tuesday if a verdict is not forthcoming on Monday.
Irving is the author of nearly 30 books, including "Hitler's War," which challenges the extent of the Holocaust, and has contended most of those who died at concentration camps such as Auschwitz succumbed to diseases such as typhus rather than execution.
In 2000, Irving sued the American Holocaust scholar Deborah Lipstadt for libel in a British court, but lost. The presiding judge in that case wrote that Irving was "an active Holocaust denier ... anti-Semitic and racist."
Irving has had numerous run-ins with the law over the years.
In 1992, a judge in Germany fined him the equivalent of $6,000 for publicly insisting the Nazi gas chambers at Auschwitz were a hoax.
Link
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now this just raises my blood pressure as much as the riots in the Middle East in regards to the cartoons. There are books denying the existance of Jesus Christ, why should this be any different?
VIENNA, Austria - A right-wing British historian goes on trial Monday on charges of denying the Holocaust occurred — a crime punishable by up to 10 years' imprisonment in this country once run by the Nazis.
The trial of David Irving opens amid fresh — and fierce — debate over freedom of expression in Europe, where the printing and reprinting of unflattering cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad has triggered violent protests worldwide.
Irving, 67, has been in custody since his arrest in November on charges stemming from two speeches he gave in Austria in 1989 in which he was accused of denying the Nazis' extermination of 6 million Jews. An eight-member jury and a panel of three judges will hear the proceedings, which officials said could produce a verdict as early as Monday.
Within two weeks of his arrest, Irving asserted through his lawyer that he now acknowledges the existence of Nazi-era gas chambers.
The historian had tried to win release on bail, but a Vienna court refused, saying it considered him a flight risk.
His lawyer, Elmar Kresbach, said last month the Third Reich historian was getting up to 300 pieces of fan mail a week from supporters around the world, and that while in detention he was writing his memoirs under the working title, "Irving's War."
Irving was arrested Nov. 11 in the southern Austrian province of Styria on a warrant issued in 1989 and charged under a federal law that makes it a crime to publicly diminish, deny or justify the Holocaust.
In the past, however, he has claimed that Adolf Hitler knew little if anything about the Holocaust, and has been quoted as saying there was "not one shred of evidence" the Nazis carried out their "Final Solution" to exterminate the Jewish population on such a massive scale.
"What was he doing in Austria? God only knows. Possibly looking for an audience," Austrian state television said in a pre-trial commentary.
Vienna's national court, where the trial is being held, ordered the balcony gallery closed to prevent projectiles from being thrown down at the bench, the newspaper Die Presse reported Sunday.
It quoted officials as saying they were bracing for Irving's supporters to give him the Nazi salute or shout out pro-Hitler slogans during the trial, which will continue into Tuesday if a verdict is not forthcoming on Monday.
Irving is the author of nearly 30 books, including "Hitler's War," which challenges the extent of the Holocaust, and has contended most of those who died at concentration camps such as Auschwitz succumbed to diseases such as typhus rather than execution.
In 2000, Irving sued the American Holocaust scholar Deborah Lipstadt for libel in a British court, but lost. The presiding judge in that case wrote that Irving was "an active Holocaust denier ... anti-Semitic and racist."
Irving has had numerous run-ins with the law over the years.
In 1992, a judge in Germany fined him the equivalent of $6,000 for publicly insisting the Nazi gas chambers at Auschwitz were a hoax.
Link
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now this just raises my blood pressure as much as the riots in the Middle East in regards to the cartoons. There are books denying the existance of Jesus Christ, why should this be any different?
Senate Member
Posts: 5,600
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
February 19th, 2006, 11:44 PM
Now I'm going to cause trouble.
This guy is obviously a racist lunatic. A member of the tinfoil hat club. A conspiracy theorist of the nth degree. etc. Etc. Etc.
BUT he has a perfect right to believe whatever he wishes.
Not only that, but the right to believe something is irrelevant unless you also have the right to say it, to print it, to declare it from the mountain top, to stand on a soap box in Hyde Park, to take out ads in the local paper.
ANY speech short of direct incitement to violence should be protected.
I hope this idiot wins his case.
I resent the fact that censors put me in a position that I am forced to defend the arsehole.
Now I'm going to cause trouble.
This guy is obviously a racist lunatic. A member of the tinfoil hat club. A conspiracy theorist of the nth degree. etc. Etc. Etc.
BUT he has a perfect right to believe whatever he wishes.
Not only that, but the right to believe something is irrelevant unless you also have the right to say it, to print it, to declare it from the mountain top, to stand on a soap box in Hyde Park, to take out ads in the local paper.
ANY speech short of direct incitement to violence should be protected.
I hope this idiot wins his case.
I resent the fact that censors put me in a position that I am forced to defend the arsehole.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,465
Videos: 1
Location: Surrey, British Columbia
Videos: 1
Location: Surrey, British Columbia
February 20th, 2006, 01:14 AM
Colpy, to be clear, I would never assert that this man does not have the right to say whatever he may please, even if I do entirely disagree and think, personally, that the man is stark-raving mad, a lunatic, challenged in more than one respect of his mental and psychological capacity, a few grapes short of a fruit salad, not the brightest bulb in the box, and et cetera.
Yes, he has the right to say these things. Nobody can stop him from expressing himself. However, in certain cases, there are consequences for such expressions. As the case may be, sometimes one must believe something enough to pay such consequences for an insistence on that expression.
Colpy, to be clear, I would never assert that this man does not have the right to say whatever he may please, even if I do entirely disagree and think, personally, that the man is stark-raving mad, a lunatic, challenged in more than one respect of his mental and psychological capacity, a few grapes short of a fruit salad, not the brightest bulb in the box, and et cetera.
Yes, he has the right to say these things. Nobody can stop him from expressing himself. However, in certain cases, there are consequences for such expressions. As the case may be, sometimes one must believe something enough to pay such consequences for an insistence on that expression.
Council Member
Posts: 1,268
February 20th, 2006, 02:27 AM
He and Zundel should be allowed to say what they want as long as they do not do it to incite violence.
There were others that suffered from busybodies pushing PC to the fringes.
Doug Collins was hounded up to his death for questioning the numbers of the Holocaust. He said it was somewhat less than 6 million. 5.2 million I believe was the best guestimate by some expert in the Midwest. This was a guy who escaped 10 times from German POW camps. He was there.
He and Zundel should be allowed to say what they want as long as they do not do it to incite violence.
There were others that suffered from busybodies pushing PC to the fringes.
Doug Collins was hounded up to his death for questioning the numbers of the Holocaust. He said it was somewhat less than 6 million. 5.2 million I believe was the best guestimate by some expert in the Midwest. This was a guy who escaped 10 times from German POW camps. He was there.
Running out of ranks
Posts: 8,366
February 20th, 2006, 07:22 AM
This is how liberals want things. They believe you have no right to challenge "official" points of view. They believe you should go to trial for it.....
I think we should turn the tables around and put people in jail who want to take away the right of freedom of speech and expression. Clearly they are a danger to society.
Quoting
Irving is the author of nearly 30 books, including "Hitler's War," which challenges the extent of the Holocaust, and has contended most of those who died at concentration camps such as Auschwitz succumbed to diseases such as typhus rather than execution.
Irving is the author of nearly 30 books, including "Hitler's War," which challenges the extent of the Holocaust, and has contended most of those who died at concentration camps such as Auschwitz succumbed to diseases such as typhus rather than execution.
This is how liberals want things. They believe you have no right to challenge "official" points of view. They believe you should go to trial for it.....
I think we should turn the tables around and put people in jail who want to take away the right of freedom of speech and expression. Clearly they are a danger to society.
Running out of ranks
Posts: 8,366
February 20th, 2006, 02:52 PM
"His lawyers have already said that they are to press for an appeal, and today's three year prison sentence is unlikely to be the final chapter."
Good job loony left!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...9852_1,00.html
"His lawyers have already said that they are to press for an appeal, and today's three year prison sentence is unlikely to be the final chapter."
Good job loony left!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...9852_1,00.html
