Jesus existence case in Italian court
- Thread starter the caracal kid
- Start date
While some might deny that He was the son of God, I don't think His existance is in question. Jesus's existance is documented in the Bible, the Koran, and other contempory writings. That there are the millions of Christians is circumstantial evidence of sorts.
you know the old saying "if you tell a lie often enough it becomes the truth"?
there are much evidence that disputes the existance of the biblical jesus. It doesn't dispute that many jesuses existed 2000 years ago, or that there was a plethora of doomsaday prophets at the time. Possibly the biblical jesus is an amalgamation of tales of a few of these prophets, or based on just one very charismatic one.
there are much evidence that disputes the existance of the biblical jesus. It doesn't dispute that many jesuses existed 2000 years ago, or that there was a plethora of doomsaday prophets at the time. Possibly the biblical jesus is an amalgamation of tales of a few of these prophets, or based on just one very charismatic one.
Jesus' existence is notably absent in his contemporaries' writings, which is why many historians doubt his existence.
For example:
The Koran can only be considered a legitimate source if you share the Musklim belief that it was dictated to Mohammed by God Herself, since it was written between 600 and 700 AD. To use the Bible as independent proof is like using Homer's poems as proof of the existence of sea monsters and the Gorgon.
Christian fundamentalists always invoke Flavius Josephus as evidence, but, not only was he not a precise contemporary of Jesus, Josephus was born between 4 and 10 years after Jesus' crucifixion, had such an event occurred. We know of his writings through those of Eusebius, who is known to be more of a fiction writer than a historian.
Scholars generally agree that passages attributed to Josephus that support Christian revisionism are later intepolations, and in contradiction to the more reliable Origen, whose works were suppressed and many burned by the emperor Constantine, who used Christianity as a unifying force to consolidate his power.
I'll be following this court case closely as well.
Re: RE: Jesus existence case in Italian court
And possibly the Biblical tale is truth, and one of these Jesuses is the son of God.
That is what several hundred million people believe.
And this idiot in Italy should not be challenging that.
What some people will do for an ego-boost.
the caracal kid said:
And possibly the Biblical tale is truth, and one of these Jesuses is the son of God.
That is what several hundred million people believe.
And this idiot in Italy should not be challenging that.
What some people will do for an ego-boost.
there is too much that contradicts the biblical tale.
as for numbers, you should know that the number of people that believe something contributes nothing to its validity.
as for numbers, you should know that the number of people that believe something contributes nothing to its validity.
Flavius Josephus: He was a Jewish historian who was born in 37 CE. In his book, Antiquities of the Jews, he described Jesus' as a wise man who was crucified by Pilate.
Many Jewish theologians regard Jesus as an itinerant rabbi of the 1st century CE who popularized many of the beliefs of the Pharisees and of the liberal Jewish thought at the time.
Epistles from the Christian Scriptures (New Testament):
bullet Liberal theologians believe that some of these were written as late as 150 CE, up to 4 generations after Jesus' death, by authors who were not eye witnesses of his ministry. Those writers could have based their letters on traditional sayings attributed to Jesus which dated from an earlier era. An analysis by G.A. Wells showed to his satisfaction that the authors definitely believed in the existence of Jesus, but did not cite any evidence that he lived in the 1st century.
Cornelius Tacitus: He was a Roman historian who lived from 55 to 120 CE and wrote a book Annals, circa 112 CE. McDowell and Stewart accept his writings as a strong indicator of Jesus' existence in the early 1st century CE.
Gaius Cornelius Tacitus, because he is so consistently cited by Christian apologists as providing extra-biblical proof of the existence of Jesus, deserves special attention. Tacitus, a prominent Roman historian who lived from 56 to 120, authored several major works on Roman history some of which have survived. Among his most ambitious work is The Annals of Imperial Rome, a 30 volume set dealing with the empire in the period from 14 to 68. In chapter 44 of Book 15 of the Annals is found the following passage:
"Consequently, to get rid of the report (that he was responsible for the devastating fire which consumed Rome in 64), Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular." (Annuls, Book XV,sec.44).
Actually, one can find all kinds of testimonials for both sides of the story. I guess if you are a believer, nothing else matters. As it should be I suppose...
Many Jewish theologians regard Jesus as an itinerant rabbi of the 1st century CE who popularized many of the beliefs of the Pharisees and of the liberal Jewish thought at the time.
Epistles from the Christian Scriptures (New Testament):
bullet Liberal theologians believe that some of these were written as late as 150 CE, up to 4 generations after Jesus' death, by authors who were not eye witnesses of his ministry. Those writers could have based their letters on traditional sayings attributed to Jesus which dated from an earlier era. An analysis by G.A. Wells showed to his satisfaction that the authors definitely believed in the existence of Jesus, but did not cite any evidence that he lived in the 1st century.
Cornelius Tacitus: He was a Roman historian who lived from 55 to 120 CE and wrote a book Annals, circa 112 CE. McDowell and Stewart accept his writings as a strong indicator of Jesus' existence in the early 1st century CE.
Gaius Cornelius Tacitus, because he is so consistently cited by Christian apologists as providing extra-biblical proof of the existence of Jesus, deserves special attention. Tacitus, a prominent Roman historian who lived from 56 to 120, authored several major works on Roman history some of which have survived. Among his most ambitious work is The Annals of Imperial Rome, a 30 volume set dealing with the empire in the period from 14 to 68. In chapter 44 of Book 15 of the Annals is found the following passage:
"Consequently, to get rid of the report (that he was responsible for the devastating fire which consumed Rome in 64), Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular." (Annuls, Book XV,sec.44).
Actually, one can find all kinds of testimonials for both sides of the story. I guess if you are a believer, nothing else matters. As it should be I suppose...
Because his life and death were attended by all sorts of miracles, he supposedly confronted the Jewish religious establishment and won. The time period was one when many Jewish sects were expecting fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies, and there were more than a few pretenders to the title. Surely, the importance of the True messiah would not have escaped Philo's pen, nor that of Justus of Tiberias.
This is not to say that there wasn't a historical Jesus, just that the historical evidence for unicorns is stronger.
Indeed. Notwithstanding one's opinion on the historicity of Jesus, the plaintiff in this case sounds like he has WAY too much time on his hands.
RE: Jesus existence case
I can just see it now:
"The defence now calls the "Holy Ghost" to testify, everyone please kneel and divine the answers to our questions."
I can just see it now:
"The defence now calls the "Holy Ghost" to testify, everyone please kneel and divine the answers to our questions."
Re: RE: Jesus existence case
:lol: :lol: :lol: Hope it gets as much play as the Michael Jackson trial!Canucklehead said: