Courts will rule on public's right to criticize city hall

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
730
0
16
www.expose-ontario.org
Courts will rule on public's right to criticize city hall
Cases focus on libel suits against citizens accused of defaming municipalities
By JAMES RUSK
Tuesday, December 20, 2005 Page 19 Today’s Globe & Mail

The limits of how far a citizen can go in criticizing a local government will be tested this week in two Ontario Superior Court cases.

Today in Milton, the court will hear a motion to dismiss as unconstitutional a libel suit by the town of Halton Hills against Acton resident Al Kirouac for statements he made in an article and related postings by the public about a town official on a local website, The Halton Herald, run by Mr. Kirouac.

On Thursday in Perth, a motion will seek to dismiss a similar libel suit against Donald Page, a resident of Montague Township, east of Smiths Fall, whom the municipality is suing over statements about the operations of the township's volunteer fire department.
Each case tests two related points, neither of which appears to have been ruled on by an Ontario court, said a municipal lawyer who asked not to be named because of an association with one of the parties.

One point is whether a 2001 change in the Ontario Municipal Act that gave municipalities the rights and privileges "of a natural person" means a local government has the right to sue for libel, just as a corporation can do under its legal status as a natural person.

If a municipality can sue for defamation, the court would then have to decide what is the line of fair criticism beyond which a person cannot go without causing damage to the municipality's reputation and goodwill, which are essential for its ability to do business.

The Canadian Civil Liberties Association is concerned that citizens will be deterred from fighting city hall if governments follow the lead of the two municipalities.

"The effect of what they are doing is to muzzle citizen criticism," Alan Borovoy, general counsel of the CCLA, said in an interview in which he also stated he could not comment on the merits of either suit.

"The issue is the propriety of a government in a democracy suing a citizen for defamation arising out of criticisms that citizen may make of government conduct. . . . Legal actions of this kind are incompatible with a viable right to free speech," Mr. Borovoy said.
Mr. Kirouac's lawyer, Ryder Gilliland, argues in his brief to the court that "a public body suing a civilian for defamation is antithetical to freedom of expression and, therefore, unconstitutional."

He also says Mr. Kirouac is alleged to have criticized a town employee, Terry Alyman, director of parks and recreation, not the town. If the motion to remove the town from the suit prevails, a suit by Mr. Alyman against Mr. Kirouac will continue.

Halton Hills lawyer John Schaljo replies that the municipality must have the right to protect its reputation, that accusations against an employee can damage the entire town, and that it would be premature to dismiss the town's suit without hearing the facts in the case.

"There is no basis in principle for holding that a municipal corporation, empowered by statute to sue in its own name, cannot maintain an action for libel. To hold otherwise would leave municipalities the helpless victims of all those who chose to publish untrue imputations which injure their reputations," Mr. Schaljo argues.

After Mr. Gilliland finishes arguing in Milton for Mr. Kirouac, he will go to Perth on behalf of the CCLA, which is seeking to join the Montague Township case to support Mr. Page.

The township council is suing Mr. Page for $50,000 for what its statement of claim, filed in August in Ontario Superior Court in Perth, describes as "a campaign of willful vilification" against the council.

Mr. Page, who has lived in the township for 30 years, said in an interview that he wrote the Ontario Fire Marshal about what he saw in January after he and his wife were the first people at the scene of a fire in which a woman died.

After he wrote to the fire marshal, he said he received a letter from the reeve of the township warning him that statements he made were defamatory and that he could be sued.

But he continued writing to provincial officials and spoke at a June council meeting, making statements that the suit, which has not been tested in court, also asserts defamed the council.

Mr. Page said he was surprised by the lawsuit. "You don't expect libel suits from your municipality because you expressed concerns about their service."

Lois Bennett, president of the Montague Ratepayers Association, said she called the CCLA when the council sued Mr. Page, who was a member of the association's executive.

"Our interest is not in the body of the case. Our interest is in the fact that this is freedom of speech, and a man should be allowed his constitutional rights to speak his mind," Ms. Bennett said.
The council's lawyer, Timothy Ray, said that his client had no choice but to sue Mr. Page.

"My view of it is, you know, that, when you get a campaign going, as happened here against the council . . . they've got no other option to bring things to a halt than to do what we did," Mr. Ray said.

Mr. Page's lawyer, Paull Leamen, said he will move to have the suit dismissed on the grounds that Mr. Page's statements to government officials were legally protected, that his motive was the safety of township residents and that his words were not defamatory.

http://www.thehaltonherald.ca/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=6
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
3,786
0
36
Toronto
www.mytimenow.net
Re: Courts will rule on public's right to criticize city hal

iamcanadian said:
Courts will rule on public's right to criticize city hall
Cases focus on libel suits against citizens accused of defaming municipalities
By JAMES RUSK
Tuesday, December 20, 2005 Page 19 Today’s Globe & Mail

The limits of how far a citizen can go in criticizing a local government will be tested this week in two Ontario Superior Court cases.

Today in Milton, the court will hear a motion to dismiss as unconstitutional a libel suit by the town of Halton Hills against Acton resident Al Kirouac for statements he made in an article and related postings by the public about a town official on a local website, The Halton Herald, run by Mr. Kirouac.

On Thursday in Perth, a motion will seek to dismiss a similar libel suit against Donald Page, a resident of Montague Township, east of Smiths Fall, whom the municipality is suing over statements about the operations of the township's volunteer fire department.
Each case tests two related points, neither of which appears to have been ruled on by an Ontario court, said a municipal lawyer who asked not to be named because of an association with one of the parties.

One point is whether a 2001 change in the Ontario Municipal Act that gave municipalities the rights and privileges "of a natural person" means a local government has the right to sue for libel, just as a corporation can do under its legal status as a natural person.

If a municipality can sue for defamation, the court would then have to decide what is the line of fair criticism beyond which a person cannot go without causing damage to the municipality's reputation and goodwill, which are essential for its ability to do business.

The Canadian Civil Liberties Association is concerned that citizens will be deterred from fighting city hall if governments follow the lead of the two municipalities.

"The effect of what they are doing is to muzzle citizen criticism," Alan Borovoy, general counsel of the CCLA, said in an interview in which he also stated he could not comment on the merits of either suit.

"The issue is the propriety of a government in a democracy suing a citizen for defamation arising out of criticisms that citizen may make of government conduct. . . . Legal actions of this kind are incompatible with a viable right to free speech," Mr. Borovoy said.
Mr. Kirouac's lawyer, Ryder Gilliland, argues in his brief to the court that "a public body suing a civilian for defamation is antithetical to freedom of expression and, therefore, unconstitutional."

He also says Mr. Kirouac is alleged to have criticized a town employee, Terry Alyman, director of parks and recreation, not the town. If the motion to remove the town from the suit prevails, a suit by Mr. Alyman against Mr. Kirouac will continue.

Halton Hills lawyer John Schaljo replies that the municipality must have the right to protect its reputation, that accusations against an employee can damage the entire town, and that it would be premature to dismiss the town's suit without hearing the facts in the case.

"There is no basis in principle for holding that a municipal corporation, empowered by statute to sue in its own name, cannot maintain an action for libel. To hold otherwise would leave municipalities the helpless victims of all those who chose to publish untrue imputations which injure their reputations," Mr. Schaljo argues.

After Mr. Gilliland finishes arguing in Milton for Mr. Kirouac, he will go to Perth on behalf of the CCLA, which is seeking to join the Montague Township case to support Mr. Page.

The township council is suing Mr. Page for $50,000 for what its statement of claim, filed in August in Ontario Superior Court in Perth, describes as "a campaign of willful vilification" against the council.

Mr. Page, who has lived in the township for 30 years, said in an interview that he wrote the Ontario Fire Marshal about what he saw in January after he and his wife were the first people at the scene of a fire in which a woman died.

After he wrote to the fire marshal, he said he received a letter from the reeve of the township warning him that statements he made were defamatory and that he could be sued.

But he continued writing to provincial officials and spoke at a June council meeting, making statements that the suit, which has not been tested in court, also asserts defamed the council.

Mr. Page said he was surprised by the lawsuit. "You don't expect libel suits from your municipality because you expressed concerns about their service."

Lois Bennett, president of the Montague Ratepayers Association, said she called the CCLA when the council sued Mr. Page, who was a member of the association's executive.

"Our interest is not in the body of the case. Our interest is in the fact that this is freedom of speech, and a man should be allowed his constitutional rights to speak his mind," Ms. Bennett said.
The council's lawyer, Timothy Ray, said that his client had no choice but to sue Mr. Page.

"My view of it is, you know, that, when you get a campaign going, as happened here against the council . . . they've got no other option to bring things to a halt than to do what we did," Mr. Ray said.

Mr. Page's lawyer, Paull Leamen, said he will move to have the suit dismissed on the grounds that Mr. Page's statements to government officials were legally protected, that his motive was the safety of township residents and that his words were not defamatory.

http://www.thehaltonherald.ca/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=6

I don't know at first glance this looks pretty un-democratic. I mean a government is not a person, and should be scrutinized by it's people and the citizens should not feel threatend to speak there mind.

odd
 

Papachongo

Nominee Member
Dec 6, 2005
71
0
6
nootaksas
Re: Courts will rule on public's right to criticize city hal

I don't know at first glance this looks pretty un-democratic. I mean a government is not a person, and should be scrutinized by it's people and the citizens should not feel threatend to speak there mind.

odd
Damn Skippy!
We should all be asking questions about our government. This world would be a little better if all people everywhere questioned their authority figures.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
Re: Courts will rule on public's right to criticize city hal

One point is whether a 2001 change in the Ontario Municipal Act that gave municipalities the rights and privileges "of a natural person" means a local government has the right to sue for libel, just as a corporation can do under its legal status as a natural person.

Here's the problem. Governments...municipal, provincial, or federal...are not natural persons and should not be given the same rights as real people. Neither should corporations. Both are decidedly unnatural entities and need to be criticised freely, and sometimes whacked across the eyes, to keep them in line.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
3,786
0
36
Toronto
www.mytimenow.net
Re: Courts will rule on public's right to criticize city hal

Reverend Blair said:
One point is whether a 2001 change in the Ontario Municipal Act that gave municipalities the rights and privileges "of a natural person" means a local government has the right to sue for libel, just as a corporation can do under its legal status as a natural person.

Here's the problem. Governments...municipal, provincial, or federal...are not natural persons and should not be given the same rights as real people. Neither should corporations. Both are decidedly unnatural entities and need to be criticised freely, and sometimes whacked across the eyes, to keep them in line.

I was going to mention about Corperations but thats slightly different.

I mean this sounds border lined facsist to me.
 

missile

House Member
Dec 1, 2004
4,846
17
38
Saint John N.B.
Re: Courts will rule on public's right to criticize city hal

Just in case "they" win,I'd like to take this opportunity to state that our mayor is one of the biggest jackasses I've ever seen-and just another Irving stooge. :)
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
RE: Courts will rule on p

I wonder if they sue people in other jurisdictions? As far as I know governments can't sue you in Manitoba. At least Sam Katz's lawyers haven't been in touch with me.;-)

So if say bad things about the municipal governments in Ontario, can they sue me here in Manitoba?
 

missile

House Member
Dec 1, 2004
4,846
17
38
Saint John N.B.
Re: Courts will rule on public's right to criticize city hal

It does sound like this idea came from the USA, where any criticism of their leaders is taken very personally. I say if the pols can't stand any criticism,they should go into a more reputable line of work...like prostitution or dealing drugs.
 

Summer

Electoral Member
Nov 13, 2005
573
0
16
Cleveland, Ohio, USA (for now...)
Re: Courts will rule on public's right to criticize city hal

Reverend Blair said:
One point is whether a 2001 change in the Ontario Municipal Act that gave municipalities the rights and privileges "of a natural person" means a local government has the right to sue for libel, just as a corporation can do under its legal status as a natural person.

Here's the problem. Governments...municipal, provincial, or federal...are not natural persons and should not be given the same rights as real people. Neither should corporations. Both are decidedly unnatural entities and need to be criticised freely, and sometimes whacked across the eyes, to keep them in line.

All you have to do is look south to see the outcome of granting "personhood" to entities that are NOT people. Corporate personhood here in the States is an enormous factor in many of our problems today.

Look, be afraid, and take care not to travel our path, for that way lies the madness that prevails in the U.S. today.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
730
0
16
www.expose-ontario.org
RE: Courts will rule on public's right to criticize city hal

In Ontario you can't take a municipality to court. The bureaucrats working in government and those in the Justice system will work together to stop it.

The systems are all interconnected and interwined into a mafia like organization of entittlement, priviledge and connections.

They are then managed by the public lawyers who are totally professionally incompetent and lack any integrity to be able to do anything right.

The public lawyer then apply the ethics of gangsters when providing professional legal advice to elected representatives who blindly follow their legal advice by playing stupid on the difference between right or wrong.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
Re: Courts will rule on public's right to criticize city hal

All you have to do is look south to see the outcome of granting "personhood" to entities that are NOT people. Corporate personhood here in the States is an enormous factor in many of our problems today.

Look, be afraid, and take care not to travel our path, for that way lies the madness that prevails in the U.S. today.

We do the same here in Canada, Summer. Corporations get personhood. If you ever get a chance, watch a film called The Corporation. It's all about where that leads...and corporations as textbook psychopaths.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
730
0
16
www.expose-ontario.org
RE: Courts will rule on public's right to criticize city hal

The textbook phychopaths is what people become from holding public authority without personal accountability for many years.

This is why the uppermost circles of public services are populated by phychopaths.

In corporations there are the checks and balances of competition and market conditions that serve to weed-out those that might become corrupted by personal power.

They are very few in private enterprise today because of all the regulations and controls corporation face plus the people in private sectors tend to advance from personal competence and incompetence tends to get nipped in the bud.

Not so with public activities where public power is always aquired illegitemetly from abuse of ethics and connections that have nothing to do with the persons competence.

Lack of advancement from personal competence is the single most culprit in public corruption, which serves to advance the people with the least personal integrity.
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
1,947
2
38
www.kdm.ca
RE: Courts will rule on public's right to criticize city hal

i think you should refrain from the use of absolutes, iamcanadian.

this inability to openly question a government body does not bode well though. Governments should be completely open and transparent. Completely questionable.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
730
0
16
www.expose-ontario.org
RE: Courts will rule on public's right to criticize city hal

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is the absolute I am applying and it is without question an absolute condition without exceptions.

How else can one say it?
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
730
0
16
www.expose-ontario.org
RE: Courts will rule on public's right to criticize city hal

When you deal with Canadian Government this is all there is to talk about that is behind everything that goes on.

You may be referring to my patented signature line. Otherwise, if I am posting about anything governmental in Canada then yes this may be part of my answer to most everything that goes on.

Because I know that this is always the case from significant personal experience over the last 30 years and because Canada is one of the few countries on earth where people are so afraid of their own government enough to never talk about these things openly.
 

Summer

Electoral Member
Nov 13, 2005
573
0
16
Cleveland, Ohio, USA (for now...)
Re: RE: Courts will rule on public's right to criticize city

iamcanadian said:
When you deal with Canadian Government this is all there is to talk about that is behind everything that goes on.
Oh, hardly.

You may be referring to my patented signature line. Otherwise, if I am posting about anything governmental in Canada then yes this may be part of my answer to most everything that goes on.
Patented? LOL. And no, I'm talking about your posts. You say the same thing over and over, even on topics it doesn't realy pertain to. Johnny one- note.

Because I know that this is always the case from significant personal experience over the last 30 years and because Canada is one of the few countries on earth where people are so afraid of their own government enough to never talk about these things openly.
You've never been to the U.S. have you? And anyway, in both countries I hear plenty of talking about it.