Cross-Border Abortions Must be Outlawed

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Nascar_James

Council Member
Jun 6, 2005
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This is unbeleivable. If someone took my daughter and killed her baby, I would surely be tempted to take the law into my own hands. I'd gladly be willing to pay the penalty for it.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,149469,00.html


Congress Ponders Cross-Border Abortions
Friday, March 04, 2005
WASHINGTON — A Pennsylvania woman who says her teenage daughter was lured into another state by a boyfriend's parents for a secret abortion told a House panel Thursday that a federal parental notification law could have stopped it.

Marcia Carroll of Lancaster, Pa., said her pregnant daughter, 14, had decided to keep and raise her baby when her boyfriend's parents took her to a New Jersey abortion clinic to get around Pennsylvania's parental notification law. Once there, Carroll said, the family refused to take her home until she had an abortion.

"No one should be able to circumvent state laws by performing an abortion in another state on a minor daughter without parental consent," the woman told the House Subcommittee on the Constitution.

More than 30 states have parental involvement laws, but there is no federal policy requiring other states to honor them when girls cross jurisdictions secretly to obtain abortions.

Stopping the practice of transporting a minor across state lines for an abortion in order to evade parental consent or notification laws is a top legislative priority this year for abortion opponents and Republican leaders in Congress.

Supporters say the bill would protect teens from the type of incident Carroll reported. She did not name the boyfriend or his family and said the police told her they could take no action since her daughter went willingly.

Opponents of the legislation complain it would cut off an escape route for pregnant girls who have abusive parents and would punish well-meaning relatives, friends and doctors who try to help.

"This legislation will not create healthy family communication where it does not already exist, and it ignores the plight of those young people who need support most," said Laura W. Murphy of the American Civil Liberties Union.

Bills in the House and Senate would make it illegal to knowingly transport a minor across a state line to get an abortion, with the intent of evading parental involvement laws in the girl's home state.

Called the "Child Interstate Abortion Notification Act" in the House, the bill also would require that abortion providers in states without parental involvement laws notify the parent or guardian before performing the procedure on a minor resident of a different state.

The House bill makes an exception for girls who have received authorization from a judge in their home state, and for girls whose lives are endangered by the pregnancy or "a physical disorder, physical injury or physical illness."

"This bill puts young women's lives at risk, makes criminals out of caring physicians, and affects the care of all patients," Warren Seigel, a doctor and member of Physicians for Reproductive Choice and Health, told the panel.

The House bill is H.R. 748.
 

Shiva

Electoral Member
Sep 8, 2005
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Isn't there some law against abduction of minors and holding them against their will? I'm sure they could start to process this type of infraction with current legislation. People like that deserve to get the book thrown at them.
 

PoisonPete2

Electoral Member
Apr 9, 2005
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Shiva said:
Isn't there some law against abduction of minors and holding them against their will? I'm sure they could start to process this type of infraction with current legislation. People like that deserve to get the book thrown at them.

Answer - sounds like kidnapping to me. A federal offence if the victim is taken over a state border. Makes me think that this is less about kidnapping than about daughters making their own decisions against the will of their parents. That would come down to individuals making personal and private decisions. This story has a ring of falseness and deception to it? Was it a Fox story? That would explain a lot.
 

Shiva

Electoral Member
Sep 8, 2005
149
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PoisonPete2 said:
Shiva said:
Isn't there some law against abduction of minors and holding them against their will? I'm sure they could start to process this type of infraction with current legislation. People like that deserve to get the book thrown at them.

Answer - sounds like kidnapping to me. A federal offence if the victim is taken over a state border. Makes me think that this is less about kidnapping than about daughters making their own decisions against the will of their parents. That would come down to individuals making personal and private decisions. This story has a ring of falseness and deception to it? Was it a Fox story? That would explain a lot.

I was being a little rhetorical when I said that. I suppose tone doesn't always come across well through the internet. :)

Obviously there are laws against kidnapping people, and since there are already laws against doing so, why are we introducing new laws that don't directly address kidnapping? If they wanted to increase punishment for this offence, one would assume they'd increase the punishment for kidnapping right? Well, they're not doing that, they're introducing legislation to further limit abortion rights. And since we know the Republican party makes a fetish out of doing so, one must wonder if they're not acheiving their agenda under the guise of protecting these youngsters.

It's hard to believe the police could do nothing about a kidnapping, as the article states:
Supporters say the bill would protect teens from the type of incident Carroll reported. She did not name the boyfriend or his family and said the police told her they could take no action since her daughter went willingly.

The girl is only 14, afterall, and very susceptible to peer pressure, let alone pressure from elders. Can it really be called willingly?
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
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Winnipeg
RE: Cross-Border Abortion

You know what should be outlawed? Anti-choice advocates who try to legislate their religious beliefs on everybody else.
 

Hard-Luck Henry

Council Member
Feb 19, 2005
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This thread is typical of Nascar - and his ilk - misdirection and deceit. Take one case in isolation, try to present it in such a way that it looks as though those evil abortionists are going around forcing abortions on people. Cheap and tasteless. Exactly what I've come to expect.
 

Nascar_James

Council Member
Jun 6, 2005
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Re: RE: Cross-Border Abortions Must be Outlawed

PoisonPete2 said:
your banner is very misleading on this topic.

Yeah, I guess it should have read "Cross-State Abortions Must be Outlawed". However Cross-Border is in obvious reference to the state borders.
 

Nascar_James

Council Member
Jun 6, 2005
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Oklahoma, USA
PoisonPete2 said:
Shiva said:
Isn't there some law against abduction of minors and holding them against their will? I'm sure they could start to process this type of infraction with current legislation. People like that deserve to get the book thrown at them.

Answer - sounds like kidnapping to me. A federal offence if the victim is taken over a state border. Makes me think that this is less about kidnapping than about daughters making their own decisions against the will of their parents. That would come down to individuals making personal and private decisions. This story has a ring of falseness and deception to it? Was it a Fox story? That would explain a lot.

Two crimes are committed here PoisonPete. First is kidnapping, second more serious is murder. As I' ve mentioned earlier, if someone were to kidnap my daughter and kill her unborn baby, I would be willing to pay the penalty for whatever actions I'd take afterwards.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
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Winnipeg
RE: Cross-Border Abortion

Was she really kidnapped? The source you cite, Faux Gnus, is far less than reliable. You are also dealing with a fourteen year girl who was being pressured to carry out an unwanted pregnancy. For all we know, she asked to be taken to Pennsylvania.
 

Cosmo

House Member
Jul 10, 2004
3,725
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Victoria, BC
Re: RE: Cross-Border Abortion

Reverend Blair said:
You know what should be outlawed? Anti-choice advocates who try to legislate their religious beliefs on everybody else.
Amen, Rev.

What, should this child have had the baby, been forced to live on welfare and become one more statistic for the conservatives to quote?

What I find most interesting is that the fathers of these babies have NO say in whether or not the child is carried to term, but they are still slapped with support payments. It's bullshit. If girls/women insist on having babies that the fathers don't want to raise, they shouldn't be allowed to force the father to pay for it. It's just wrong.

There is a big difference between two people planning a family together then splitting up ... they are both responsible in that case ... and an accidental pregnancy that wrecks kids' lives. If I had a son in that position I'd probably do exactly what those parents did. I would do whatever needed done to protect my son's future.

The hypocrisy is overwhelming. On one hand the right wingers say "no abortion!", yet at the same time they want to take away social programs that support the consequences of these laws. Crazy.
 

manda

Council Member
Jul 3, 2005
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swirling in the abyss of nowhere la
Re: RE: Cross-Border Abortion

Reverend Blair said:
Was she really kidnapped? The source you cite, Faux Gnus, is far less than reliable. You are also dealing with a fourteen year girl who was being pressured to carry out an unwanted pregnancy. For all we know, she asked to be taken to Pennsylvania.

She may have, but then again she may not have wanted to go. At 14 I would have been scared sh#tless to say "no" to my boyfriends parents.

I don't believe in abortion myself, except for in extreme extenuating circumstances. This comes from a person who decided to keep and do a damn good job at raising the child that she had not planned, and who was conceived in a very extreme situation, at 17, and who is facing the prospect of not being able to have any more children.

Those who go out and don't proctect themselves against pregnancy, and then use abortion, and the killing of a fetuus (I believe that life begins at conception) as a means of birth control infuriate me, those who don't take responsiblity for their actions and then throw away a very precious gift of life that others (like myself) would give an arm and a leg to have. The very thought of it makes me just breakdown and cry, like I'm doing right now.

At the very least they could adopt the child out and bless those who don't have other available options with the gift of a beutiful child


It's just NOT fair
 

Cosmo

House Member
Jul 10, 2004
3,725
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Victoria, BC
RE: Cross-Border Abortion

Manda ... I agree. It's not fair at all. I have a friend who I knew would be an incredible parent who could not have babies. I even entertained the idea of having a baby for her. Well, entertained it for a split second -- the idea of having a human being growing inside my body mortifies me. I could never do it. Thankfully she now has 2 beautiful adopted girls.

I've known women who gave children up for adoption. It is one of the bravest, most selfless acts a human can do. But it affects these women for the rest of their lives. I don't know if I could be that brave. Add to the mix that most adoptive kids come from teens who are not psychologically prepared for something so enormous and it's amazing that anyone gives babies up.

I am an absolute supporter of pro choice, no ambivlance at all. But any woman strong enough to carry and child for those who cannot is a hero to me. I still maintain, however, that if the fathers of these children make it clear they don't want to raise a child or have any responsibility in it, they should be given that freedom as well. Our present laws are flawed.
 

Steve French

Nominee Member
Jul 10, 2005
55
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RE: Cross-Border Abortion

Why don't you bible thumping conservatards see if you can do something about over-turning that pesky civil rights amendment as well?
Forward into the past!
 

manda

Council Member
Jul 3, 2005
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Re: RE: Cross-Border Abortion

Cosmo said:
Manda ... I agree. It's not fair at all. I have a friend who I knew would be an incredible parent who could not have babies. I even entertained the idea of having a baby for her. Well, entertained it for a split second -- the idea of having a human being growing inside my body mortifies me. I could never do it. Thankfully she now has 2 beautiful adopted girls.

I've known women who gave children up for adoption. It is one of the bravest, most selfless acts a human can do. But it affects these women for the rest of their lives. I don't know if I could be that brave. Add to the mix that most adoptive kids come from teens who are not psychologically prepared for something so enormous and it's amazing that anyone gives babies up.

I am an absolute supporter of pro choice, no ambivlance at all. But any woman strong enough to carry and child for those who cannot is a hero to me. I still maintain, however, that if the fathers of these children make it clear they don't want to raise a child or have any responsibility in it, they should be given that freedom as well. Our present laws are flawed.

I agree whole heartedly with almost all of your post Cosmo.

I have seen dear friends, and yes, I still love them, despite the fact that I could not agree with their decision, have abortions and then feel guilty beyond belief, one to the point of being hospitalised for psychiatric evaluation. Any decision in this situation is going to affect the rest of your life, but given my position and what I have lived, I just can not agree with abortion, although, I don't hold anything against thse who can
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
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Winnipeg
RE: Cross-Border Abortion

The fathers always could have worn a rubber, Cosmo. I have little patience for those who don't use birth control and then want no part of the resultant responsibility.

I have even more trouble with the parents, teachers, and preachers who oppose sex education and the availability for birth control for kids, then don't want girls to have abortions and treat STDs as some sign from god that the kids are evil.

We do need some new laws. The first one we need is a law saying that any adult who tells a kid not to use protection is committing child abuse.
 

manda

Council Member
Jul 3, 2005
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swirling in the abyss of nowhere la
Re: RE: Cross-Border Abortion

Steve French said:
Why don't you bible thumping conservatards see if you can do something about over-turning that pesky civil rights amendment as well?
Forward into the past!

Are you actually reading anyone's posts past the first 3 words? :roll:

Holy cow! you are so far off base in everthing you are saying that I can't believe you're actually serious!
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
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yes and this thread was created to once again yabber about abortion. Nascar likes to pic and choose his links, especially the ones that benefit his neo con thinking. In every situation in life you find people that do something wrong. Nascar would have us believe that this is what abortion is all about, a smear tactic if you will. A fox network approach. Should all americans be held responible for the crimes of dubya? No, and the right to an abortion has nothing to do with this story.
 
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