A case of Shoot the Messenger, not the Message

Twila

Nanah Potato
Mar 26, 2003
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Sorry, didn't mean to imply men as in the opposite of women. I meant man as in the species.

Mayhaps I'll stick with the term humans in the future.
 

Twila

Nanah Potato
Mar 26, 2003
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No need to apologize. In today's world it's the latest craze to bash men. Your not hip if your not degrading them.

I'm not (usually) like that. I don't believe that it's acceptable. It is unacceptable to beat women, or hate a skin colour...it is also unacceptable to bash penis owners based on their ownership.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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RE: A case of Shoot the M

'd like to know where that culture of abuse comes from. It's something that has been prevalent in most societies at one time or another, so it seems to have pretty deep roots.

I understand the division of labour in hunter-gatherer societies (man=hunter, women=gatherer) and earling farming communities (man=farmer woman=miller/food preparer). There seem to have been an abundance of matriarchies up until we started building cities though, the division of labour was more a practical matter than a cultural one.

When cities appear it seems like patriarchies become dominant.

Any of you anthropology students have an explanation or theory about that? It seems to be a taboo subject on TV and in the popular literature.
 

Twila

Nanah Potato
Mar 26, 2003
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Should I be afraid?

Nah, I try very hard not to be that way. I just slipped in the disclaimer as a back up. In case a statement is misunderstood or I unknowingly say something.
 

Rick van Opbergen

House Member
Sep 16, 2004
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Reverend Blair said:
I'd like to know where that culture of abuse comes from. It's something that has been prevalent in most societies at one time or another, so it seems to have pretty deep roots.

I understand the division of labour in hunter-gatherer societies (man=hunter, women=gatherer) and earling farming communities (man=farmer woman=miller/food preparer). There seem to have been an abundance of matriarchies up until we started building cities though, the division of labour was more a practical matter than a cultural one.

When cities appear it seems like patriarchies become dominant.

Any of you anthropology students have an explanation or theory about that? It seems to be a taboo subject on TV and in the popular literature.
Good questions Rev. Although there have been some exceptions, the division you make in labour seems to be correct. The distinction between the man as a hunter and the female as a gatherer was based on indeed a practical use of it; women could stay close to home and feed and raise the infants. There have been exceptions, as I said, for example among certain Inuit tribes, where some women also participated in hunting.

However, I don't know whether it is exactly true that with the start of the first cities, patriarchies became more dominant. In "Western" society, there seems to be a link between increasing emancipation for women compared to men, and a reinforcement of the masculine role in society by men - being the one who earns the money, while the wife is supposed to do the cleaning and raising the children. With emancipation by the way, I don't mean necessarily the fact that women got equal rights; I do mean that with the start of the Industrial Revolution, women got the change to work in the factory and earn well not as much money as the man could, but the distinction between what a man was "supposed" to do and what a woman was "supposed" to do declined.

The sharp division created in the Western world to decide what the role was of the man (the husband), and what the role was of the woman (the wife), is changing however - though slowly. Women can be leaders too, for example. Something which was denied for a very long time in the Western world.

But I do have to say this is a difficult subject. I don't know enough about gender relations in others parts in the world to make statements about a possible increasingly male dominance now compared to some centuries ago.
 

Twila

Nanah Potato
Mar 26, 2003
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Germane Greer postulated that when hunting was not necessary it became difficult for men get adjust. She explains that for thousands and thousands of years men had a role of hunting for the family, and of protecting them. That the violent tendancies of some men could be explained by their lack of "hunting".

Course she explains it alot better. her eloquence is such that it all sounded plausible. Me? I know nothing about it.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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RE: A case of Shoot the M

I wasn't thinking of the industrial revolution that encouraged us to become an urban society, Rick. I was thinking more along the lines of cities forming in Mesopotamia etc. When communities got big enough to be cities instead of villages.

People had already been farming for quite some time by then, but they got more organised. I think money replaced barter at about the same time.
 

Rick van Opbergen

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According to the ILO (International Labor Organisation):

50% of all people on this earth are women;
60% of all labor in the world is done by women;
10% of the worldincome is earned by women;
1% of the capital in this world is owned by women.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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RE: A case of Shoot the M

Sounds about right. I'm wondering how they came up with that figure about capital though. Not that I disagree, but I'm wondering if they looked at shareholders or CEOs.
 

moghrabi

House Member
May 25, 2004
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RE: A case of Shoot the M

This article is very disturbing to every muslem around the world including myself. In reality, it does not have anything to do with the religion of Islam as was mentioned in the article. It is based on cultural and/or tribal ways for dealing with women that dishonor their families by getting pregnant with marriage or having a relationship with a man without consent from parents.

But if you look at the problem, it existed long time ago and in varying cultures. According to my research, it started in Africa long before Islam arrived there. It is still practiced in non-muslem countries in Africa.

See the following:

HONOR KILLINGS IN AMERICA & ABROAD
http://www.soundvision.com/cgi-bin/print.asp?url=/info/misc/honor.asp

Some facts about the abuse of women in the United States

http://www.soundvision.com/Info/misc/wvastat.asp
 

Twila

Nanah Potato
Mar 26, 2003
14,698
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But if you look at the problem, it existed long time ago and in varying cultures.

yes, humans love to blame everything else but themselves for their shortcomings. Humans will seek out avenues for this rather then deal with why they culpible. The path of least resistence. We currently have a system in place that will insure that their will always be "victims".
 

Rick van Opbergen

House Member
Sep 16, 2004
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Reverend Blair said:
Sounds about right. I'm wondering how they came up with that figure about capital though. Not that I disagree, but I'm wondering if they looked at shareholders or CEOs.
That's a good question. To be honest with you: I have no idea :) We should take in consideration though that these estimates are about 10 years old, so the numbers might be different by now.
 

Rick van Opbergen

House Member
Sep 16, 2004
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moghrabi said:
But if you look at the problem, it existed long time ago and in varying cultures. According to my research, it started in Africa long before Islam arrived there. It is still practiced in non-muslem countries in Africa.

See the following:

HONOR KILLINGS IN AMERICA & ABROAD
http://www.soundvision.com/cgi-bin/print.asp?url=/info/misc/honor.asp

Some facts about the abuse of women in the United States

http://www.soundvision.com/Info/misc/wvastat.asp
With all respect, I thought you would present a history of honor killings, the motivations and roots. Why the article about abuse of women in the United States?
 

moghrabi

House Member
May 25, 2004
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Re: RE: A case of Shoot the Messenger, not the Message

Twila said:
But if you look at the problem, it existed long time ago and in varying cultures.

yes, humans love to blame everything else but themselves for their shortcomings. Humans will seek out avenues for this rather then deal with why they culpible. The path of least resistence. We currently have a system in place that will insure that their will always be "victims".

Hi Twila.

I did not understand your comment. Are you saying that I am trying to blame someone else for Honor killing? Please reply.