Greatest Dutchmen

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Rick van Opbergen

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They had the election "100 Greatest Dutchmen" yesterday, interesting to see, and ehh a lot of people I hadn't heard of before. Anyway, the concept seems to be that through this week, we can chose which Dutchmen will make up the top ten, in what rank. We already voted for this top 100, but now we still have to decide what will be the precise top ten. They have given ten names. Here they are in alfabetical order (surname, first name):

Cruijff, Johan - renowed footballplayer;
Drees, Willem - Dutch prime-minister, "vadertje Drees" (father Drees), helped the Netherlands to rebuild again after the Second World War;
Erasmus, Desiderius - great humanist;
Fortuyn, Pim - murdered politician, caused a huge shift in Dutch politics;
Frank, Anne - famous Jewish girl who wrote a world-famous diary;
Gogh, Vincent van - world-famous painter;
Leeuwenhoek, Antoni van - famous scientist, developer of the microscope;
Orange, William I of - a really "vader des vaderlands" (pater patriae);
Rijn, Rembrandt van - world-famous painter;
Ruyter, Michiel Adriaenszoon de - great Dutch commander and sailor, presumably saved the Netherlands from a certain Spanish re-occupation.

Now, this seems a bit odd - I don't think that anyone of you knows them all, I seriously doubt that - but reading their biographies, whom would you believe to be the greatest Dutchman? Or is this a stupid question?

EDIT: click on their names to read their biographies.
 
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Rick van Opbergen

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Here are by the way Dutchmen who didn't made the top ten:
Aletta Jacobs (11 - famous Dutch feminist, first Dutch woman who went to university, first woman to vote); Queen Juliana (14 - Queen of the Netherlands 1948-1980, "Queen of the people"); Anton Philips(17 - founder of Philips); Fanny Blankers-Koen (29 - female athlete, "The Flying Housewife"); DJ Tiësto (40 - chosen number 01 DJ of the world).

HERE is the full list of the numbers 11-100 Greatest Dutchmen (in Dutch, just click on "volgende pagina" for the rest)
 
Haggis McBagpipe

Haggis McBagpipe

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Rick van Opbergen said:
whom would you believe to be the greatest Dutchman? Or is this a stupid question?
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Anne Frank, however touching a figure, could hardly been seen as one of the greatest Dutchmen since she didn't live long enough to become great. Famous, yes... courageous, yes... touching, yes... but great? Jeanne d'Arc, albeit young, greatly inspired her countrymen in their time of need, whereas the sad story of Anne Frank was more of a reflective thing, a demonstration of a young girl's courage and fortitude exposed after the war and, if anything, possibly causing some shame to the Dutch people for their possible (nobody knows for sure) role in the eventual betrayal of the Frank family.

Pim Fortuyn is far too recent a figure to be seriously considered. Many years and the diverse treatment of historians are needed before awarding such lofty historical significance as 'great' to any national personage.

Personally, I'd never put a sports player into the realms of a nation's greatest (or at least not in the top ten) so the footie is out.

I'd like to think that in the end, the arts reflect more about who we are than the politics (very likely a naive view), and thus exert the more subtle yet greater influence in the defining of national character. Regardless, the artist has the more honest character, he is driven by his art not his quest for power. Further, there is a lack of hype in the historical treatment of an artist over that of a politician (I need only remind all that Reagan is now seen as a hero, and one day, so will wee Dubya), so I'm going to cast my vote for Van Gogh, whose work is magnificent, and which perfectly captures what I perceive as the Dutch character.
 
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Rick van Opbergen

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Should I have made a poll by the way? Anyway, Van Gogh seems to be leading ... good choice. Now, my vote will eventually go for .... William of Orange! Now, I'm not a real fan of the Dutch monarchy, but I do have to say that he is our ehm well I don't know it in Canadian terms, so I'll say he's our George Washington.

peapod said:
My vote is for "Rick van Opbergen" record holder for eating egg salad sandwiches :p
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Two days I ate eggsalad sandwiches for breakfast ... TWO DAYS! :roll: :wink:

Thanks for the reply, both Jillyvn and Haggis. Haggis, for what I know, or what is believed, is that the Frank family was indeed betrayed by a Dutchman (I believe they say it was their Dutch maid, or else a Dutch Nazi), and they were arrested by a famous Dutch Jewhunter who - as he said - "stopped counting the number of Jews I betrayed after I reached the 200". We should also take in consideration that more than 75% of Dutch Jewry died in the Holocaust, one of the highest numbers in Nazi-occupied Europe.

I also think - as you do - that people like Pim Fortuyn and Johan Cruijff are not real contestants in this top ten. The fact that many people did vote for them is because the murder of Pim Fortuyn is very recent, and has shocked a lot of people, while Johan Cruijff is a big TV-personality now, and therefore a much seen person.[/quote]
 
Haggis McBagpipe

Haggis McBagpipe

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Re: RE: Greatest Dutchmen

Rick van Opbergen said:
By the way: how many of the contestants had you heard of before?
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Well, all of them except for Ruijff and Ruyter.

Funny you chose William of Orange, for that was going to be my choice but I changed my mind for the reasons stated in my original post.
 
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Rick van Opbergen

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Well I kinda agreed with your critic remarks why you prefer an artist and not a politician, but for some kind of reason, I do have the feeling William of Orange should be seen as the Greatest Dutchman ... he's part of our national identity, more over as he is the ancestor of our Dutch monarchs ... I was actually doubting whether to choose William of Orange or Vincent van Gogh ... but ehh you have heard of Willem Drees before?
 
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Rick van Opbergen

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Willem Drees is actually popular among the older generations, because he was really the prime-minister the Netherlands needed after the Nazi years. I mean, 10% of all Dutch houses were destroyed, 270,000 Dutchmen were killed, there was a lot of hunger - especially in the north - and hundreds of thousands wanted to emigrate (especially to Canada, Australia and the US); it was a chaotic time. But he knew what he had to do.

When I was talking about this with my mom, she even thought Drees to be the Greatest Dutchman ever (and that, while she was born in 1960), but as having been a nurse, she eventually went for Antoni van Leeuwenhoek...
 
Haggis McBagpipe

Haggis McBagpipe

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Re: RE: Greatest Dutchmen

Rick van Opbergen said:
Haha I bet you know him because of his "cookies" incident not? That Marshall came to Drees's home, and said when he was giving a little biscuit said "well this country surely needs our help" (or something in that order...)
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No, I didn't know him for that reason, but that sounds like one of those good stories! I know very little about Drees except that he was at the helm, so to speak, during the Dutch recovery from the war. I feel he was responsible, in large part, to bringing the Dutch around to a more global view. Other than that, I know nothing about him... or his biscuit! :cool:
 
Andem

Andem

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Re: RE: Greatest Dutchmen

LadyC said:
Huh.
Until I read through this thread, I wasn't aware there was such a thing as a great Dutchman..............



;)
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I hope that was a part of a funky BC sense of humour! Ofcourse most countries have great people. Especially Europe! The Dutch are great people whatever which way you look at them.
 
Haggis McBagpipe

Haggis McBagpipe

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Re: RE: Greatest Dutchmen

Andem said:
Of course most countries have great people. Especially Europe! The Dutch are great people whatever which way you look at them.
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Absolutely true, Andem! I like Europeans in general, even though I have to whisper VERY quietly the fact that they have a much better grasp on world events than we North Americans do. :cool: I know Rick is going to be in here like a flash, saying it ain't so, but that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.
 
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