Member
Posts: 172 
Location: 7000 ft. asl and on full auto
Location: 7000 ft. asl and on full auto
July 27th, 2004, 01:07 AM
Quoting
I don't think that can be safely assumed at all. The Jews have (one of?) the most persecuted peoples in history. The Romans, Christians, Europe in the middle ages, and of course... Hitler. If Ms. Rice has any idea of history, may we assume that this is what she meant?
While Rice does not elaborate on this "hardness and determination," or provide specifics, we can safely assume she is talking about Israel's relationship with the Arabs, both Palestinian and those surrounding the Zionist state.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,490
Location: Canada
Location: Canada
July 27th, 2004, 01:17 AM
Quoting
Yes Paco. The Jews have been through a lot as you mentioned. But if you read the article carefully, you can see that the state of Israel was built by using the same methods of torture, killing and persecution that was used on them. The Pals are fighting the same way the Jews fought for their freedom and I am afraid that when the Pals are free, they are going to use the same thing against other people. It is a crazy cycle. The reason is that the Jews have known nothing but torture by their enemy. So they use it. Now the Pals are being subjected to the same and the new Pal generation is learning the same thing. When the chance come, they will use it too.
Quoting
I don't think that can be safely assumed at all. The Jews have (one of?) the most persecuted peoples in history. The Romans, Christians, Europe in the middle ages, and of course... Hitler. If Ms. Rice has any idea of history, may we assume that this is what she meant?
While Rice does not elaborate on this "hardness and determination," or provide specifics, we can safely assume she is talking about Israel's relationship with the Arabs, both Palestinian and those surrounding the Zionist state.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,103
July 27th, 2004, 09:49 AM
Nothing happened in a vaccum-- much like Sabra and Shatilla. Why do you think the Christians went on a rampage-- out of love?
The assertion you make is, as I said, absurd. The Jews in the region had been persecuted for decades-- a govt/religious sponsored policy designed to make the region 'judenrein'-- a policy designed to keep rage focused outward rather than inward-- a policy designed to keep these autocratic regimes in power.
That the area jews defended themselves was their right.
Further, though I'm no fan of Sharon, he was never the real problem. The real problem was, and remains, the despotic Arab regimes in the region. The constant calls of 'itbach al yahudi!-- slaughter the jews!-- is heard to this day. Just this week, 'esteemed' Sheikh Yousef Al-Qaradhawi was quoted as publicly declaring: 'There is No Dialogue between Us and the Jews Except by the Sword and the Rifle'. Couple that with regional racist and hate filled textbooks and school curriculums (despite promises to change), it isn't hard to see why the chasm is so great.
The good news is that some attitudes are beginning to change-- see Arab press coverage of Qaradhawi here: http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD75304
My point is that the oversimplification of decades of conflict only serve to exacerbate an already difficult situation.
Further, the notion that despotic leaders (including Arafat) in the region have been acting in good faith is laughable. If they are comfortable enough repressing and murdering their own people (of which there are countless examples) and present themselves as credible, it isnt a secret that their dealings with Israel have been less than honourable.
Quote:
While I agree that there is plenty of blame to go round, the notion you mention is absurd.
you can see that the state of Israel was built by using the same methods of torture, killing and persecution that was used on them
Nothing happened in a vaccum-- much like Sabra and Shatilla. Why do you think the Christians went on a rampage-- out of love?
The assertion you make is, as I said, absurd. The Jews in the region had been persecuted for decades-- a govt/religious sponsored policy designed to make the region 'judenrein'-- a policy designed to keep rage focused outward rather than inward-- a policy designed to keep these autocratic regimes in power.
That the area jews defended themselves was their right.
Further, though I'm no fan of Sharon, he was never the real problem. The real problem was, and remains, the despotic Arab regimes in the region. The constant calls of 'itbach al yahudi!-- slaughter the jews!-- is heard to this day. Just this week, 'esteemed' Sheikh Yousef Al-Qaradhawi was quoted as publicly declaring: 'There is No Dialogue between Us and the Jews Except by the Sword and the Rifle'. Couple that with regional racist and hate filled textbooks and school curriculums (despite promises to change), it isn't hard to see why the chasm is so great.
The good news is that some attitudes are beginning to change-- see Arab press coverage of Qaradhawi here: http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD75304
My point is that the oversimplification of decades of conflict only serve to exacerbate an already difficult situation.
Further, the notion that despotic leaders (including Arafat) in the region have been acting in good faith is laughable. If they are comfortable enough repressing and murdering their own people (of which there are countless examples) and present themselves as credible, it isnt a secret that their dealings with Israel have been less than honourable.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,490
Location: Canada
Location: Canada
July 27th, 2004, 04:11 PM
Jewish Zealots Blocked From Entering Site
Jul 27, 5:01 PM (ET)
By DAN WALDMAN
JERUSALEM (AP) - Police turned back about 30 Jewish zealots to enter a disputed Jerusalem holy site under Muslim control Tuesday, saying the act could incite Palestinian violence.
The demonstration was by The Temple Mount Faithful, a group dedicated to rebuilding a biblical temple destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 B.C. and again by the Romans in 70 A.D.
The group wants to remove two mosques - the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa - built on the ancient site. Muslim tradition says the site is where the Prophet Muhammad ascended to heaven.
Tuesday is the Jewish holiday of Tisha B'Av, or the 9th of the month of Av, on which Jews believe both temples were destroyed.
Riot police armed with clubs and automatic weapons guarded the entrance to the 11-acre elevated plaza known to Jews as the Temple Mount and to Muslims as Haram a-Sharif.
They told the demonstrators they couldn't enter the compound because of a threat to public security.
The site, taken over by Israel in the 1967 Middle East War, has become a tinderbox for Israeli-Palestinian tensions. A visit by then-opposition leader Ariel Sharon in September 2000 sparked widespread Palestinian rioting that quickly escalated into the current round of violence.
Temple Mount Faithful leader Gershon Solomon was unbowed by the police action.
"Our struggle in the past 37 years is to re-liberate the Temple Mount," he said. "We will remove the Arab Islamic enemy."
In recent years the group has stepped up efforts to gain access to the site, but has been consistently rebuffed by police supported by Israeli Supreme Court rulings, which have recognized the holy site's religious sensitivity.
On Saturday, Public Security Minister Tsachi Hanegbi warned that Jewish extremists might try to destroy the two mosques to enflame Israeli-Arab tensions and sabotage the prime minister's plan to withdraw Israeli troops and settlers from the Gaza Strip.
The Western Wall, Judaism's holiest site, forms one of the outer walls of the compound.
Jewish Zealots Blocked From Entering Site
Jul 27, 5:01 PM (ET)
By DAN WALDMAN
JERUSALEM (AP) - Police turned back about 30 Jewish zealots to enter a disputed Jerusalem holy site under Muslim control Tuesday, saying the act could incite Palestinian violence.
The demonstration was by The Temple Mount Faithful, a group dedicated to rebuilding a biblical temple destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 B.C. and again by the Romans in 70 A.D.
The group wants to remove two mosques - the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa - built on the ancient site. Muslim tradition says the site is where the Prophet Muhammad ascended to heaven.
Tuesday is the Jewish holiday of Tisha B'Av, or the 9th of the month of Av, on which Jews believe both temples were destroyed.
Riot police armed with clubs and automatic weapons guarded the entrance to the 11-acre elevated plaza known to Jews as the Temple Mount and to Muslims as Haram a-Sharif.
They told the demonstrators they couldn't enter the compound because of a threat to public security.
The site, taken over by Israel in the 1967 Middle East War, has become a tinderbox for Israeli-Palestinian tensions. A visit by then-opposition leader Ariel Sharon in September 2000 sparked widespread Palestinian rioting that quickly escalated into the current round of violence.
Temple Mount Faithful leader Gershon Solomon was unbowed by the police action.
"Our struggle in the past 37 years is to re-liberate the Temple Mount," he said. "We will remove the Arab Islamic enemy."
In recent years the group has stepped up efforts to gain access to the site, but has been consistently rebuffed by police supported by Israeli Supreme Court rulings, which have recognized the holy site's religious sensitivity.
On Saturday, Public Security Minister Tsachi Hanegbi warned that Jewish extremists might try to destroy the two mosques to enflame Israeli-Arab tensions and sabotage the prime minister's plan to withdraw Israeli troops and settlers from the Gaza Strip.
The Western Wall, Judaism's holiest site, forms one of the outer walls of the compound.
