Judge bans woman from entering plea in court after she refused to remove burka

Blackleaf

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So often do we hear stories of liberal judges making bizarre decisions which are in favour of the criminal rather than the victim that when one makes the right decision it comes as a bit of a shock. Such as in this case.

A judge told a Muslim woman she must remove her burkha in court before she can enter a plea after she refused to reveal her face.

Judge Peter Murphy said the principle of open justice overrode the 21-year-old woman's religious beliefs, and warned there was a risk a different person could go into the dock pretending to be her.

The woman, from Hackney, east London, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, appeared before Blackfriars Crown Court in central London today charged with intimidating a witness.



Judge orders Muslim woman to remove burkha during court appearance then bans her from entering plea after she refuses



  • Judge Peter Murphy said open justice overrides religious belief in court
  • Woman, 21, said she cannot remove her veil in front of men at all
  • Judge said there is a risk someone could pretend to be her in the dock
  • Case adjourned so lawyers can argue whether the defendant must remove her veil
  • Defendant, who cannot be named, is charged with intimidating a witness
By Rob Cooper
23 August 2013




Demand: Judge Peter Murphy said the Muslim defendant must remove her burkha in the courtroom because the principle of open justice overrode the 21-year-old woman's religious beliefs

A judge told a Muslim woman she must remove her burkha in court before she can enter a plea after she refused to reveal her face.

Judge Peter Murphy said the principle of open justice overrode the 21-year-old woman's religious beliefs, and warned there was a risk a different person could go into the dock pretending to be her.

The woman, from Hackney, east London, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, appeared before Blackfriars Crown Court today charged with intimidating a witness.

She said she cannot remove the veil in front of men because of her religious beliefs.

Judge Murphy told her: ‘It is necessary for this court to be satisfied that they can recognise the defendant.

‘While I obviously respect the right to dress in any way she wishes, certainly while outside the court, the interests of justice are paramount.

‘I can’t, as a circuit judge, accept a plea from a person whose identity I am unable to ascertain.’

He added: ‘It would be easy for someone on a later occasion to appear and claim to be the defendant.

‘The court would have no way to check on that.’

Her barrister, Claire Burtwistle, told the court the woman was not prepared to lower her veil at all while men were in the room.

‘In front of women, it is not an issue’, she said. ‘It is simply men that she will not allow to see her face.’


Hearing: The woman, who appeared before Blackfriars Crown Court in central London, is charged with witness intimidation. The case has been adjourned for legal argument about whether she has to remove her burkha

Ms Burtwistle suggested herself, a female police officer or a female prison guard could identify the defendant and confirm to the court that it is the same person as in the police arrest photos.



Under the veil: The judge said there is a risk that if a Muslim woman was allowed to cover her face with a veil in court a different person could pretend to be her (file photo)

Prosecutor Sarah Counsell added that the police officer in charge of the case was content that he recognised the defendant while she was in the burkha.

But Judge Murphy rejected the suggestions, saying: ‘It seems to me to be quite fundamental that the court is sure who it is the court is dealing with.

‘Furthermore, this court, as long as I am sitting, has the highest respect for any religious tradition a person has.

‘In my courtroom also, this sometimes conflicts with the interests of a paramount need for the administration of justice. In my courtroom, that’s going to come first.’

The judge added: ‘There is the principle of open justice and it can’t be subject to the religion of the defendant whether the principle is observed or not.

‘I am not saying this because of the particular form of dress by this defendant, I apply that to any form of dress that had the same issues.’

Judge Murphy adjourned the case for legal argument over whether the defendant should have to remove her veil.

It will be heard again on September 12, when the defendant is expected to enter a not guilty plea and go to trial.

The defendant is alleged to have intimidated a witness, in Finsbury Park, north London, in June.



 

Cliffy

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Why do judges still wear those absolutely ridiculous wigs. Reminds me of a Monty Python skit. I can't take them seriously.
 

Omicron

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Why do judges still wear those absolutely ridiculous wigs. Reminds me of a Monty Python skit. I can't take them seriously.


Canadian Judges don't wear wigs.

Anyway, if I'd been the judge, I'd tell the woman she can keep her burka on if she can pass a full-body MRI scan before testifying.

Of course, that would delay the trial while engineers install an MRI gateway to the witness stand, so she'd better hope she's not on the prosecution side.
 

Omicron

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The court might consider getting blowing $15 on a thumb print scanner.

That in conjunction with the type of body-scanners used at airports.

Of course, to get the thumb-print initially certified, the woman would have to take her burka off in front of a female officer to link the association between who she is with the thumbprint, but, that makes me wonder...

Suppose the courtroom was presided by a female judge, and all the support staff and police officers and observers in the audience were female.

Could she take her burka off then?
 

Omicron

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Why? Because I'm curious if Muslims would have a problem with a woman taking off her burka to be judged in an all-female court of law.
 

Dixie Cup

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Sep 16, 2006
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So often do we hear stories of liberal judges making bizarre decisions which are in favour of the criminal rather than the victim that when one makes the right decision it comes as a bit of a shock. Such as in this case.


A judge told a Muslim woman she must remove her burkha in court before she can enter a plea after she refused to reveal her face.

Judge Peter Murphy said the principle of open justice overrode the 21-year-old woman's religious beliefs, and warned there was a risk a different person could go into the dock pretending to be her.

The woman, from Hackney, east London, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, appeared before Blackfriars Crown Court in central London today charged with intimidating a witness.

Judge orders Muslim woman to remove burkha during court appearance then bans her from entering plea after she refuses





  • Judge Peter Murphy said open justice overrides religious belief in court
  • Woman, 21, said she cannot remove her veil in front of men at all
  • Judge said there is a risk someone could pretend to be her in the dock
  • Case adjourned so lawyers can argue whether the defendant must remove her veil
  • Defendant, who cannot be named, is charged with intimidating a witness
By Rob Cooper
23 August 2013




Demand: Judge Peter Murphy said the Muslim defendant must remove her burkha in the courtroom because the principle of open justice overrode the 21-year-old woman's religious beliefs

A judge told a Muslim woman she must remove her burkha in court before she can enter a plea after she refused to reveal her face.

Judge Peter Murphy said the principle of open justice overrode the 21-year-old woman's religious beliefs, and warned there was a risk a different person could go into the dock pretending to be her.

The woman, from Hackney, east London, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, appeared before Blackfriars Crown Court today charged with intimidating a witness.

She said she cannot remove the veil in front of men because of her religious beliefs.

Judge Murphy told her: ‘It is necessary for this court to be satisfied that they can recognise the defendant.

‘While I obviously respect the right to dress in any way she wishes, certainly while outside the court, the interests of justice are paramount.

‘I can’t, as a circuit judge, accept a plea from a person whose identity I am unable to ascertain.’

He added: ‘It would be easy for someone on a later occasion to appear and claim to be the defendant.

‘The court would have no way to check on that.’

Her barrister, Claire Burtwistle, told the court the woman was not prepared to lower her veil at all while men were in the room.

‘In front of women, it is not an issue’, she said. ‘It is simply men that she will not allow to see her face.’


Hearing: The woman, who appeared before Blackfriars Crown Court in central London, is charged with witness intimidation. The case has been adjourned for legal argument about whether she has to remove her burkha

Ms Burtwistle suggested herself, a female police officer or a female prison guard could identify the defendant and confirm to the court that it is the same person as in the police arrest photos.



Under the veil: The judge said there is a risk that if a Muslim woman was allowed to cover her face with a veil in court a different person could pretend to be her (file photo)

Prosecutor Sarah Counsell added that the police officer in charge of the case was content that he recognised the defendant while she was in the burkha.

But Judge Murphy rejected the suggestions, saying: ‘It seems to me to be quite fundamental that the court is sure who it is the court is dealing with.

‘Furthermore, this court, as long as I am sitting, has the highest respect for any religious tradition a person has.

‘In my courtroom also, this sometimes conflicts with the interests of a paramount need for the administration of justice. In my courtroom, that’s going to come first.’

The judge added: ‘There is the principle of open justice and it can’t be subject to the religion of the defendant whether the principle is observed or not.

‘I am not saying this because of the particular form of dress by this defendant, I apply that to any form of dress that had the same issues.’

Judge Murphy adjourned the case for legal argument over whether the defendant should have to remove her veil.

It will be heard again on September 12, when the defendant is expected to enter a not guilty plea and go to trial.

The defendant is alleged to have intimidated a witness, in Finsbury Park, north London, in June.




Sigh - it's NOT a religious requirement - that's a lie. Why does this continue to be even an issue? She needs to remove the burka period!!!

IMHO
 

petros

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Nov 21, 2008
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Why? Because I'm curious if Muslims would have a problem with a woman taking off her burka to be judged in an all-female court of law.
How did she get a driver's license, bank account, library card, education all without her taking off her doohickey?
 

damngrumpy

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I don't see a problem here, a person should not be able to disguise themselves from
the court. This keeps coming up the burka is not religious garb it is a customary
article. I think the judge made the right decision here. The other question that comes
to mind is how the Canadian law will be affected. We have a law stating you cannot
wear a disguise at any form of demonstration. The next street protest could see all
Muslim women arrested for concealing their identity. We should insist on knowing the
identity of anyone testifying or being charged with a crime period.
 

Omicron

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Sigh - it's NOT a religious requirement - that's a lie. Why does this continue to be even an issue? She needs to remove the burka period!!!

IMHO

Yeah, really. She can still keep her head-cover on while lowering the face-veil.

The fact that she's charged with witness-intimidation says a lot. It implies she's one of those burka-bitches who slap around younger women for not subjecting themselves to burka-tyrany the way she had to when she was young.

How did she get a driver's license, bank account, library card, education all without her taking off her doohickey?

Good point. My guess would be that she might have insisted that the people taking her driver's licence photo etc. were female, and they complied.

Hmm.. which means... she can reveal herself to guys through a photo, but not in real life.

I wonder if a smart lawyer could mess up the heads of Sharia judges by linking that to the proscription they have about making "graven images".
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Yeah, really. She can still keep her head-cover on while lowering the face-veil.

The fact that she's charged with witness-intimidation says a lot. It implies she's one of those burka-bitches who slap around younger women for not subjecting themselves to burka-tyrany the way she had to when she was young.



Good point. My guess would be that she might have insisted that the people taking her driver's licence photo etc. were female, and they complied.

Hmm.. which means... she can reveal herself to guys through a photo, but not in real life.

I wonder if a smart lawyer could mess up the heads of Sharia judges by linking that to the proscription they have about making "graven images".
Who says a guy took her drivers license photo?

It's still only $15 for a USB thumb print scanner.
 

Omicron

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I don't see a problem here, a person should not be able to disguise themselves from
the court.

It's vital to the system. We don't want to falsely accuse anyone. We don't want to encourage a system where a woman of power could force one of her handmaids to take a rap for her. We don't and we won't.

She's hiding something, and it's more than her face.

This keeps coming up the burka is not religious garb it is a customary
article.

Exactly. It's a custom among some Islamic denominations, and has nothing to do with core Islamic teachings.

It's the total flip-side of fringy Doukhobor extremists demanding the right to stand buck-naked in a courtroom.

I think the judge made the right decision here.
Hmm... wouldn't a normal result be that she gets held in a limbo-like "pre-trial" cell indefinitly until she's willing to identify herself?

Call them "Schrodinger Cat-Boxes"... she may or may not be who she says she is, but we won't know until we see.

The other question that comes
to mind is how the Canadian law will be affected. We have a law stating you cannot
wear a disguise at any form of demonstration. The next street protest could see all
Muslim women arrested for concealing their identity.
I wonder how that would get interpreted by Taliban. They throw marching women into prison just for marching.

My hunch is, the burka-woman would say to each other something like, "Canada and Taliaban are the same... we march and they throw us in prison". :roll:

We should insist on knowing the
identity of anyone testifying or being charged with a crime period.
Goes without saying.

I'd be curious to hear their responses when it's explained that's it's to protect them from Kangaroo-Courts. Once explained, they might say, "But we *want* Sharia Law".
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Relevant language from the article:

Prosecutor Sarah Counsell added that the police officer in charge of the case was content that he recognised the defendant while she was in the burkha.

Which leads to the question: why is it that we can trust officers to identify evidence, but not trust them to identify persons?

That's why I said earlier judges should not lie. Because this judge was clearly lying. There are plenty of ways this woman could be identified. If the judge simply said "This is Britain, and by our legal traditions, people may not cover their faces in court." That's not discrimination, it applies to all.

But coming up with a stupid identification excuse to justify his decision puts the entire evidentiary process at risk. If I were a British barrister defending, say, a drug dealer, I would use this to argue that the police could not validly say that the drugs in evidence were the same as the package they found on my client.
 

petros

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Nov 21, 2008
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Relevant language from the article:

Prosecutor Sarah Counsell added that the police officer in charge of the case was content that he recognised the defendant while she was in the burkha.

Which leads to the question: why is it that we can trust officers to identify evidence, but not trust them to identify persons?

That's why I said earlier judges should not lie. Because this judge was clearly lying. There are plenty of ways this woman could be identified. If the judge simply said "This is Britain, and by our legal traditions, people may not cover their faces in court." That's not discrimination, it applies to all.

But coming up with a stupid identification excuse to justify his decision puts the entire evidentiary process at risk. If I were a British barrister defending, say, a drug dealer, I would use this to argue that the police could not validly say that the drugs in evidence were the same as the package they found on my client.
The judge has bias and the case could be tossed or another judge selected to take over.

And it's still only $15 for a USB thumb print scanner
 

Tecumsehsbones

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The judge has bias and the case could be tossed or another judge selected to take over.

And it's still only $15 for a USB thumb print scanner
That's a perfectly valid solution. As is having a woman officer take her into a side room, verify that she is the person charged, and come back into the courtroom and so testify.

Or, as I said, the judge could flat-out say "This is Britain, and you must follow our rules."

It's his waffling that does the harm.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Just another xenophobe trying to push his personal bias. In the UK, a defendant doesn't even have to show in court unless to testify and for sentencing.