The Zimmerman Defense

Retired_Can_Soldier

The End of the Dog is Coming!
Mar 19, 2006
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Certainly worth a read:

Key Disputes in the Zimmerman Trial

The trial of George Zimmerman, who is charged with second-degree murder in the 2012 death of Trayvon Martin, has focused on a handful of questions.

Who started the confrontation?


He told me the guy was getting real close to him.”
Rachel Jeantel, Mr. Martin's friend
22:23

One of the prosecution's key arguments is that Mr. Zimmerman chose to follow Mr. Martin after a police dispatcher told him not to. Ms. Jeantel said she heard Mr. Martin ask, “Why are you following me for?” and a “hard-breathing man” say, “What you doing around here?”



She said she heard a bump and Mr. Martin saying, “Get off, get off.’”
Ms. Jeantel is one of the prosecution's key witnesses, but the defense has picked away at her credibility. Mr. Jeantel acknowledged that she had lied twice: once about her age — she pretended to be 16, a minor — and then about why she did not attend Mr. Martin’s wake. She did not miss the wake because she was in the hospital, as she said at first, but because she did not want to see Mr. Martin’s body.


Defense lawyers say that once the police told Mr. Zimmerman not to follow Mr. Martin, he had turned around and was returning to his car. At that point, Mr. Martin confronted him, they maintain.



From the actual 911 call:



Who had the upper hand during the fight?


Mr. Zimmerman told the police that Mr. Martin jumped on him, pushed him to the ground, punched him and bashed his head against the pavement repeatedly. The neighbor who was closest to the altercation, John Good, said he saw a "lighter-skinned" man on bottom, wearing red or white. Mr. Zimmerman, who is Hispanic and fair-skinned, was wearing a red jacket that night.



But two other neighbors suggested that Mr. Zimmerman was on top. One woman said she saw the man on top walk away. The other said the larger man was on top, leading her to believe it was Mr. Zimmerman. But she acknowledged during cross-examination that she based her notion of who was larger on photographs of Mr. Martin when he was younger than 17, his age at the time of the shooting.



None of Mr. Zimmerman's DNA was found in scrapings from Mr. Martin's fingernails, and Mr. Martin's hands had no blood or injuries aside from small abrasions on the knuckles of his left hand pinky and ring fingers. Mr. Martin was right handed. However, there were stains on the knees of Mr. Martin's pants, and a police officer testified that Mr. Zimmerman's back was wet and had grass on it.




Who shouted for help?
“There’s someone screaming outside.”
Neighbor’s 911 call
2:35



During the fight, a neighbor called 911 to report screaming, and a male voice yelling “Help” or “Help me” can be heard in the background of the call's recording. Jurors have heard the recording in court, but Judge Debra S. Nelson has excluded the testimony of two audio experts for the prosecution. Defense experts said the science used by the state was not reliable and that it was impossible to decipher who was screaming.
Sybrina Fulton, Mr. Martin's mother, testified that the voice was her son's. Jahvaris Fulton, Mr. Martin's brother, agreed, although Mark O’Mara, a lawyer for Mr. Zimmerman, noted that previously Mr. Fulton had said in an interview that he was not sure who it was. Tracy Martin, Mr. Martin’s father, initially told the police the voice was not his son's. He later backtracked and concluded that it did belong to Mr. Martin. Mr. O'Mara points out that Mr. Zimmerman told the police that he cried for help numerous times.





How severe were Mr. Zimmerman's injuries?


The defense said Mr. Zimmerman's nose was broken, proving that he was hurt by Mr. Martin in the altercation. Convinced that Mr. Martin was going to reach for Mr. Zimmerman’s gun as he lay on the ground, Mr. Zimmerman said he pulled his weapon and shot Mr. Martin at close range in the chest. In Florida, using lethal force is legally justifiable if a person fears imminent death or great bodily harm.


Who shouted for help?


“There’s someone screaming outside.”
Neighbor’s 911 call
2:35



During the fight, a neighbor called 911 to report screaming, and a male voice yelling “Help” or “Help me” can be heard in the background of the call's recording. Jurors have heard the recording in court, but Judge Debra S. Nelson has excluded the testimony of two audio experts for the prosecution. Defense experts said the science used by the state was not reliable and that it was impossible to decipher who was screaming.
Sybrina Fulton, Mr. Martin's mother, testified that the voice was her son's. Jahvaris Fulton, Mr. Martin's brother, agreed, although Mark O’Mara, a lawyer for Mr. Zimmerman, noted that previously Mr. Fulton had said in an interview that he was not sure who it was. Tracy Martin, Mr. Martin’s father, initially told the police the voice was not his son's. He later backtracked and concluded that it did belong to Mr. Martin. Mr. O'Mara points out that Mr. Zimmerman told the police that he cried for help numerous times.





How severe were Mr. Zimmerman's injuries?


The defense said Mr. Zimmerman's nose was broken, proving that he was hurt by Mr. Martin in the altercation. Convinced that Mr. Martin was going to reach for Mr. Zimmerman’s gun as he lay on the ground, Mr. Zimmerman said he pulled his weapon and shot Mr. Martin at close range in the chest. In Florida, using lethal force is legally justifiable if a person fears imminent death or great bodily harm.


Who shouted for help?



  • play


“There’s someone screaming outside.”
Neighbor’s 911 call
2:35



During the fight, a neighbor called 911 to report screaming, and a male voice yelling “Help” or “Help me” can be heard in the background of the call's recording. Jurors have heard the recording in court, but Judge Debra S. Nelson has excluded the testimony of two audio experts for the prosecution. Defense experts said the science used by the state was not reliable and that it was impossible to decipher who was screaming.
Sybrina Fulton, Mr. Martin's mother, testified that the voice was her son's. Jahvaris Fulton, Mr. Martin's brother, agreed, although Mark O’Mara, a lawyer for Mr. Zimmerman, noted that previously Mr. Fulton had said in an interview that he was not sure who it was. Tracy Martin, Mr. Martin’s father, initially told the police the voice was not his son's. He later backtracked and concluded that it did belong to Mr. Martin. Mr. O'Mara points out that Mr. Zimmerman told the police that he cried for help numerous times.




How severe were Mr. Zimmerman's injuries?


The defense said Mr. Zimmerman's nose was broken, proving that he was hurt by Mr. Martin in the altercation. Convinced that Mr. Martin was going to reach for Mr. Zimmerman’s gun as he lay on the ground, Mr. Zimmerman said he pulled his weapon and shot Mr. Martin at close range in the chest. In Florida, using lethal force is legally justifiable if a person fears imminent death or great bodily harm.


Who shouted for help?



  • play


“There’s someone screaming outside.”
Neighbor’s 911 call
2:35



During the fight, a neighbor called 911 to report screaming, and a male voice yelling “Help” or “Help me” can be heard in the background of the call's recording. Jurors have heard the recording in court, but Judge Debra S. Nelson has excluded the testimony of two audio experts for the prosecution. Defense experts said the science used by the state was not reliable and that it was impossible to decipher who was screaming.
Sybrina Fulton, Mr. Martin's mother, testified that the voice was her son's. Jahvaris Fulton, Mr. Martin's brother, agreed, although Mark O’Mara, a lawyer for Mr. Zimmerman, noted that previously Mr. Fulton had said in an interview that he was not sure who it was. Tracy Martin, Mr. Martin’s father, initially told the police the voice was not his son's. He later backtracked and concluded that it did belong to Mr. Martin. Mr. O'Mara points out that Mr. Zimmerman told the police that he cried for help numerous times.




How severe were Mr. Zimmerman's injuries?


The defense said Mr. Zimmerman's nose was broken, proving that he was hurt by Mr. Martin in the altercation. Convinced that Mr. Martin was going to reach for Mr. Zimmerman’s gun as he lay on the ground, Mr. Zimmerman said he pulled his weapon and shot Mr. Martin at close range in the chest. In Florida, using lethal force is legally justifiable if a person fears imminent death or great bodily harm.


 

coldstream

on dbl secret probation
Oct 19, 2005
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I've tried to avoid the whole media circus.

In one sense i feel that anyone stupid enough to go around confronting people he deems to be suspicious without any authority to do so.. and who are doing nothing obviously illegal... while armed with a handgun and completely untrained as to how to evaluate or diffuse situations with minimal violence.. .. and ends up killing someone when the inevitable confrontation develops.. deserves whatever he gets.

On the other hands the open gun laws in the States that stem directly from a Wild West and vigilante ethos of American consciousness might in a literal sense mean he was completely within his rights.. in a culture where the mere appearance of threat, subjectively determined.. is sufficient to justify deadly force.

My guess is he'll be convicted of manslaughter.. and frankly deserves to spend several years in prison.. for causing a completely avoidable tragedy. Morons with guns.. what do you expect.
 
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Retired_Can_Soldier

The End of the Dog is Coming!
Mar 19, 2006
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I've tried to avoid the whole issue.

In one sense i feel that anyone stupid enough to go around confronting people he deems to be suspicious. without authority and who are simply walking home.. while armed with a handgun and completely untrained as to how to evaluate or diffuse situations with minimal violence.. and ends up killing someone when the obvious confronatation develops.. Deserves whatever he gets.

On the other hands the open gun laws in the States that stem directly from a Wild West and vigilante justice ethos of American consciousness might in a literal sense mean he was completely within his rights.

My guess is he'll be convicted of manslaughter.. and frankly deserves to spend several years in prison.. for causing a completely avoidable tragedy.

If someone was following you or asked you what you were doing in a neighborhood, would you beat them up?

Here's the 911 transcript.

911 Call Transcript
We’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy. It’s Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.
This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about. [00:25]
911 dispatcher:
OK, is he White, Black, or Hispanic?

Zimmerman:
He looks black.
911 dispatcher:
Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. He wore jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring. [00:42]
911 dispatcher:
He’s just walking around the area, the houses? OK.
Zimmerman:
Now he’s staring at me. [00:48]
911 dispatcher:
OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?
Zimmerman:
That’s the clubhouse.
911 dispatcher:
He’s near the clubhouse now?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band.
And he’s a black male.[1:03]
911 dispatcher:
How old would you say he is?
Zimmerman:
He’s got something on his shirt. About like his late teens.
911 dispatcher:
Late teens?
Zimmerman:
Uh, huh.
Something’s wrong with him. Yep, he’s coming to check me out.
He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. [01:20]
911 dispatcher:
Let me know if he does anything, OK?
Zimmerman:
OK.
911 dispatcher:
We’ve got him on the wire. Just let me know if this guy does anything else.
Zimmerman:
OK.
These *******s. They always get away.
When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and you go left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse. [1:39]
911 dispatcher:
OK, so it’s on the left hand side of the clubhouse?
Zimmerman:
Yeah. You go in straight through the entrance and then you would go left. You go straight in, don’t turn and make a left.
He’s running. [2:08]
911 dispatcher:
He’s running? Which way is he running?
Zimmerman:
Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14]
911 dispatcher:
OK, which entrance is that he’s headed towards?
Zimmerman:
The back entrance.
911 dispatcher: Are you following him? [2:24]
Zimmerman:
Yeah. [2:25]
911 dispatcher:
OK.
We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]
Zimmerman:
OK. [2:28]
911 dispatcher:
Alright, sir, what is your name? [2:34]
Zimmerman:
George. He ran.
911 dispatcher:
Alright, George, what’s your last name?
Zimmerman:
Zimmerman.
911 dispatcher:
What’s the phone number you’re calling from?
Zimmerman:
407-435-2400
911 dispatcher:
Alright, George, we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
Zimmerman:
Yeah.
911 dispatcher:
Alright, where are you going to meet with them at?
Zimmerman:
Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck. [3:10]
911 dispatcher:
Alright, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21]
Zimmerman:
Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. [3:25]
911 dispatcher:
OK, do you live in the area?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, yeah, I live here.
911 dispatcher:
OK, what’s your apartment number?
Zimmerman:
It’s a home. It’s 1950 – oh, crap, I don’t want to give it out – I don’t know where this kid is [inaudible] [3:40]
911 dispatcher:
OK, do you just want to meet with them at the mailboxes then? [3:42]
Zimmerman:
Yeah, that’s fine. [3:43]
911 dispatcher:
Alright, George, I’ll let them know you’ll meet them at …
Zimmerman:
Could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at? [3:49]
911 dispatcher:
OK, that’s no problem.
Zimmerman:
My number … you’ve got it?
911 dispatcher:
Yeah, I’ve got it. 435-2400?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, you got it.
911 dispatcher:
OK, no problem. I’ll let them know to call you when they’re in the area. [4:02]
Zimmerman:
Thanks.
911 dispatcher:
You’re welcome.
Call ends 4:
 

coldstream

on dbl secret probation
Oct 19, 2005
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If someone was following you or asked you what you were doing in a neighborhood, would you beat them up?

Here's the 911 transcript.:

If i was walking home on a public sidewalk.. i'd tell him to go f**k himself and mind his own damn business.. which is probably just what happened.. when Zimmerman drew down on him. It's likely that Zimmerman's approach was threatening and accusatory. I honestly think Zimmerman was locked and loaded for the confrontation. As i said.. he's an idiot.. and the best outcome for this would be a manslaughter conviction.. to keep other idiots off the street.. 'protecting' their neighbourhoods.
 

Retired_Can_Soldier

The End of the Dog is Coming!
Mar 19, 2006
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Alberta
If i was walking home on a public sidewalk.. i'd tell him to go f**k himself and mind his own damn business.. which is probably just what happened.. when Zimmerman drew down on him. It's likely that Zimmerman's approach was threatening and accusatory. I honestly think Zimmerman was locked and loaded for the confrontation. As i said.. he's an idiot.. and the best outcome for this would be a manslaughter conviction.. to keep other idiots off the street.. 'protecting' their neighbourhoods.

I'm glad you're not on the jury. I've seen no evidence from either side to draw this conclusion.
 

DaSleeper

Trolling Hypocrites
May 27, 2007
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My question for all the Trayvon fans out there who accuse Zimerman of looking for something to shoot......why would he call 9-1-1 "Before" doing it?
And the dispatcher saying "you don't need to do that" is not an order
 

Retired_Can_Soldier

The End of the Dog is Coming!
Mar 19, 2006
11,371
578
113
59
Alberta
My question for all the Trayvon fans out there who accuse Zimerman of looking for something to shoot......why would he call 9-1-1 "Before" doing it?
And the dispatcher saying "you don't need to do that" is not an order

Actually what transpired was:

911 dispatcher: Are you following him? [2:24]
Zimmerman: Yeah. [2:25]
911 dispatcher: OK. We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]
Zimmerman: OK. [2:28]

Zimmerman's response to the 911 "OK" operator has been conveniently edited out of almost all the news clips.