Has Obama just pushed Harper into a Carbon Tax?

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
24,691
116
63
Moving
Has Obama just pushed Harper into a Carbon Tax?
Obama’s pragmatist side wins out in Keystone comments | Full Comment | National Post

Mr. Oliver wouldn’t say whether he felt more or less confident of Keystone’s approval after hearing the speech.

The ambiguity of Mr. Obama’s statement may force the Harper government to do something it clearly does not want to do — impose regulations on the oil and gas sector.

Both Canada and the U.S. have pledged to reduce emissions by 17% below 2005 levels by 2020, but Canada will need to bring in new regulations to curb emissions from the oil and gas industries if it is to hit its targets. Stephen Harper is said to have resisted attempts to bring in new rules, particularly since his Conservative party has made such great play of mocking the NDP’s “$21-billion tax on everything.”

The Harper government has been promising to regulate since it was elected in 2006. Peter Kent, the Environment Minister, said he would release a notice of intent to regulate by mid-year but when Parliament broke last week there was still no sign of new rules.

Canada likely does not figure high on Mr. Obama’s priority list right now but, as far as it does, it’s a fair bet that he is keen to push the Harper government to introduce tough climate change regulations, and so provide him some cover to approve Keystone.

The expectation in Ottawa is that the Conservatives will eventually bring in regulations that allow provincial governments to run their own show, as long as they meet or exceed national standards. The best guess is that the feds will endorse the Alberta model, where large emitters are obliged to reduce the intensity of their emissions by 12% or pay $15 a tonne into a technology fund. The government of Alberta has suggested that this 12:15 plan could be increased to a 40:40 ratio (a 40% reduction in emissions and a $40 a tonne levy for excess emissions). The proposal went down badly with industry, which portrayed it as too draconian, and most observers now think the federal proposal will be in the 30:30 range (30% reduction; $30 a tonne levy).

Canada seizes on Obama's Keystone XL pipeline requirements - The Globe and Mail

But the President’s description of the project as one to move “oil from Canadian tar sands down to refineries in the Gulf” used the term “tar,” favoured by anti-pipeline activists. Proponents of Keystone XL prefer the less dirty term “oil sands” to describe the vast deposits in Alberta.

It was the first time Mr. Obama had directly referred to Keystone XL in months.

The President’s comment will re-ignite the already furious debate over whether Keystone XL will add to the overall carbon emission blamed for global warming or simply be neutral because the resources will be extracted whether or not the pipeline is built. Its backers, including Prime Minister Stephen Harper – who has called approval so obvious that it’s a “no brainer” – may find the President’s comments unsettling.

The Canadian government, responding to Mr. Obama, seized on the President’s requirement that the Keystone XL project does not drive up greenhouse gas emissions.

“Today President Obama made clear that Keystone XL would be approved if it does not significantly exacerbate the problem of greenhouse gas emissions,” Canadian Natural Resources Minister Joe Oliver said in statement.

Canada was quick to point out that a recent U.S. State Department report forecast no significant increase in emission-causing activity.

“We agree with President Obama’s State Department Report in 2013 which found that, ‘approval or denial of the proposed Project is unlikely to have a substantial impact on the rate of development in the oil sands, or on the amount of heavy crude oil refined in the Gulf Coast area’,” Mr. Oliver said.

Although Mr. Obama said his climate change strategy was about far more than the decision over whether “to build one pipeline” the fact that he pointedly referred to Keystone XL amounts to a victory for the burgeoning array activists opposed to the project who have turned it into a litmus test of the President’s approach to climate change.

On the broader issue, Mr. Obama said it was past time to curb carbon emissions, which, he said, threaten the planet.

“As a president, as a father and as an American, I’m here to say we need to act,” Mr. Obama said, after removing his jacket and telling a broiling crowd they could do the same.

The President said he was ordering officials to launch the first-ever federal regulations on carbon dioxide emitted by new and existing power plants. Other aspects of the plan will boost renewable energy production on federal lands, increase efficiency standards and prepare communities to deal with higher temperatures.

He also said new standards would be required to defend coastal cities against inevitable sea-level rise.

Unless we act, “we will suffer the consequences together,” he said.

The initial response to the President’s speech from leading anti-Keystone XL activists – who have morphed the project from a pipeline into an iconic decision that will test the President’s commitment to make a major effort on climate change – was cautiously optimistic.

“This is an appropriate standard that the President appears to be setting on Keystone XL,” said Bill McKibben, founder of 350.org “It’s encouraging news for certain.”

Mr. Obama was openly scornful of so-called deniers, those who claim man-made carbon emissions have nothing to do with global warming or, in some cases that Earth isn’t actually warming.

“We don’t have time for a meeting of the flat-earth society” he said, and urged his legions of young supporters to rally behind the cause of sweeping carbon reduction to save the planet.

“The politics will be tough,” the President said, acknowledging the – at least in the United States – the Republican-controlled House of Representatives is dead set against carbon limits, which they regard as job-killing meddling by the federal government.
 

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
24,691
116
63
Moving
The biggest thing that's getting pushed here is Harper's motivation to move the bitumen to the East or West coast and cut-out the middle man in the Gulf entirely.

3 pipelines would be best. And not to Kitimat, Prince Rupert would be a better choice.
 

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
24,691
116
63
Moving
Nunavut is in the race these days, potentially backed by the Feds..... Methinks that Christy C might want to be proactive in approving the LNG facilities on the Left coast sooner rather than later.
For the BC pipeline the money will come from the Feds. The Prov cannot set a precedent.
They have approved 3 (6 is what I believe is proposed and they will get the nod) LNG terminals from what I recall and gave them exemptions under BC`s carbon tax-rules.
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
28,429
146
63
A Mouse Once Bit My Sister
For the BC pipeline the money will come from the Feds.

Money for the P/L comes from the private sector... The Nunavut play would require that a deep water port be constructed, that's where the Feds would come in.... Any P/L through Nunavut would be funded entirely through the private sector

The Prov cannot set a precedent. They have approved 3 (6 is what I believe is proposed and they will get the nod) LNG terminals from what I recall and gave them exemptions under BC`s carbon tax-rules.

The risk BC takes is that if they nix bitumen but accept gas (and the port is built in Nunavut); AB resource companies might just look towards supporting the Northern facilities as they would already be shipping crude.

Clark is playing a high stakes game in allowing one and not the other (unless she gets her bribe money that is)
 

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
24,691
116
63
Moving
Money for the P/L comes from the private sector... The Nunavut play would require that a deep water port be constructed, that's where the Feds would come in.... Any P/L through Nunavut would be funded entirely through the private sector



The risk BC takes is that if they nix bitumen but accept gas (and the port is built in Nunavut); AB resource companies might just look towards supporting the Northern facilities as they would already be shipping crude.

Clark is playing a high stakes game in allowing one and not the other (unless she gets her bribe money that is)



She will get the money.
Mind you going North would cost 15-20 Billion, at a kin and the private sector would want loan guarantees to start but open up the Mackenzie for oil and gas exports.
NEB - Mackenzie Gas Project - Reasons for decision - Volume 2 - Chapter 1 Introduction

http://www.mackenziegasproject.com/theProject/overview/index.html
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
28,429
146
63
A Mouse Once Bit My Sister
She will get the money. Mind you going North would cost 15-20 Billion, at a kin and the private sector would want loan guarantees to start but open up the Mackenzie for oil and gas exports.

Clark is forcing the issue of moving North and there is a proposal on the books. Factor-in the opportunity for TCPL to reverse an existing line and now you open up the East coast... None of this will happen without supply contracts from the producers and the smart play for Ontario, Que or Nunavut is to tie the development of LNGs with bitumen transport which will require contracts for the supply of gas.

Once those decisions are made to go East and/or North and the process gets moving, it is too late for BC.

Like I said, it's a high stakes game and Ms Clark has already played all her cards.
 

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
24,691
116
63
Moving
Clark is forcing the issue of moving North and there is a proposal on the books. Factor-in the opportunity for TCPL to reverse an existing line and now you open up the East coast... None of this will happen without supply contracts from the producers and the smart play for Ontario, Que or Nunavut is to tie the development of LNGs with bitumen transport which will require contracts for the supply of gas.

Once those decisions are made to go East and/or North and the process gets moving, it is too late for BC.

Like I said, it's a high stakes game and Ms Clark has already played all her cards.

And it opens the North with a deep water port.
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
28,429
146
63
A Mouse Once Bit My Sister
And it opens the North with a deep water port.

There's more upside in Harper backstopping a Northern port and developing Eastern refining facilities than there is in forcing a line through BC. Harper is playing this perfectly

Problem for Christie is that she can't see the forest through the clear-cut on this... She's been advised that there are only a handful of p/l technical jobs in it for BC. She hasn't opened her eyes to the service companies, consultants, broker/trading companies or any HQs that might set up on the coast. All high paying gigs and all of which pay taxes and recycle money into the economy.
 
Last edited:

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
24,691
116
63
Moving
Obama speech shows we’re running out of time for a market-based response to climate change | Full Comment | National Post

Introducing his long-awaited Climate Action Plan, President Barack Obama was at pains to impress upon his listeners the dangers of delay. “Our planet is changing in ways that will have profound impacts on all of humankind,” he warned, ticking off the usual list of predicted disasters: fire, flood, drought and worse. “The question is not whether we need to act,” he said. “The question now is whether we will have the courage to act before it’s too late.”

The sense of urgency would perhaps be more credible had the speech come in his first year in office rather than his fifth. On the other hand, had Congress not spent the last four years failing to pass legislation to set up a national carbon emissions trading system, on which the president had previously pitched his hopes, he might have had more trouble making the case for the sweeping assertions of executive authority the plan entails.

And in this there is a warning of another kind: when the better policy options have been ruled off limits, the worse options are all that is left. Everything that makes carbon pricing such an attractive idea is missing from the president’s plan. Instead there is a grab bag of all the bad old ideas on environmental regulation that carbon pricing was supposed to replace.
Related

Rivals read what they want in Obama Keystone XL remarks
Terence Corcoran: The heat gets to Obama’s logic
New pipeline rules call for minimum $1B clean-up fund for major oil lines

To recap: the accumulation of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, widely held to be responsible for climate change, is not the work of a handful of big polluters, but the consequence of millions of individual choices by producers and consumers, large and small. To alter behaviour on the scale required to turn this around means entering into every one of these transactions, to impress upon producers and consumers the costs they impose on others, and thus to reward them for reducing their emissions.

Signalling costs in this way is precisely the role that prices perform generally; all that is needed is to adapt them to include the costs of carbon, whether by making the right to emit legally scarce, but tradeable — and thus priceable — or by slapping a levy directly onto the price of every good or service in proportion to its carbon content. In short, by cap-and-trade or a carbon tax.

To be fair, the president’s proposals will surely have some effect in reducing emissions, but at far greater cost to the economy than is necessary. Simply telling large power plants to reduce their emissions to a certain level, for example, offers them no incentive to go further than required. Without a provision for trading unneeded credits, moreover, it means a higher average cost per ton of emissions reduced, since comparatively more will be carried out by plants that find it costly to reduce, and less by plants that can do it easily and cheaply.

Imposing higher fuel economy standards on automobile makers, a second part of the plan, is not just inefficient but counterproductive, since it does nothing to raise the cost of carbon but rather lowers the cost of driving (more miles per gallon equals fewer gallons to the mile). As emissions reductions strategies go, encouraging people to drive more would seem one of the less well considered.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
109,404
11,454
113
Low Earth Orbit
Obeyma wants more than just one barrel in ten being North Dakota Bakken crude in the XL and then there is Soros and GE who stand to make big bucks off of oil by rail while getting taxpayers to fund their "green coal" NG projects.

The reason man went to pipelines is because oil by rail is ridiculous.
 
Last edited:

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
28,429
146
63
A Mouse Once Bit My Sister
Obama insists that the Canadian people bend over and obey him by imposing a carbon tax scheme. How do you Canadians like being told by Obama what you must do?

I am not sure if the White House understands that there are more options on he table here.

Time will tell what happens, but if Obama wants a carbon tax, maybe it makes sense to apply the tax in AB before it crosses into N Dakota.

PS - we promise that the money will go towards CCS.. Honest!
 

BaalsTears

Senate Member
Jan 25, 2011
5,732
0
36
Santa Cruz, California
I am not sure if the White House understands that there are more options on he table here.

Time will tell what happens, but if Obama wants a carbon tax, maybe it makes sense to apply the tax in AB before it crosses into N Dakota.

PS - we promise that the money will go towards CCS.. Honest!

Frankly I hate to see the good people of Canada living at the beck and call of American political elites. I'm ok with keystone pipeline as long as Canadians use the taxes collected to fund beer and pizza parties in Kamloops and Kipling.

Canada's best bet is to send the tar sands oil west to China. The Chinese are building the world's largest refining complex. I would be reluctant to further entangle my affairs and economy with New Amerika.

Wouldn't a deep water port on the Arctic Ocean be just what the doctor ordered in terms of marketing its tarsands? Such ports would also enhance Canadian claims to the coastal shelf on the north American shore of the Arctic Ocean.
 

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
9,949
21
38
kelowna bc
If Christi approves the northern gateway there will be hell to pay in this Province.
this company is not in keeping the objectives of BC residents. Kinder Morgan is a
different matter but the pipeline to the North forget it.
Its not just environmentalists that are opposed its clear we don't want it despite all
their lying advertising. I'm no tree hugger but I support the greenies on this one.
I also don't want anything to do with Keystone, it sells out Canada plain and simple.
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
28,429
146
63
A Mouse Once Bit My Sister
Frankly I hate to see the good people of Canada living at the beck and call of American political elites. I'm ok with keystone pipeline as long as Canadians use the taxes collected to fund beer and pizza parties in Kamloops and Kipling.

Canadians have to step-up and assume their share of the blame on this.. Decades have passed and never was the move made to expand the customer base and reach.

I do like the idea you forward to the expenditure of the taxes although I might have to include a location a little closer for me... I'll make sure that you get an invitation to the party.

Canada's best bet is to send the tar sands oil west to China. The Chinese are building the world's largest refining complex. I would be reluctant to further entangle my affairs and economy with New Amerika.

The Chinese petroleum companies are already here in droves and have pledged the money to build the p/l. Now it's just a matter of political will and having one (or more) approved.

Wouldn't a deep water port on the Arctic Ocean be just what the doctor ordered in terms of marketing its tarsands? Such ports would also enhance Canadian claims to the coastal shelf on the north American shore of the Arctic Ocean.

In many ways it makes a lot of sense (especially in the long term). However, from an economics standpoint, there are existing ports on both coasts that will service the foreign demand.... That said, I'm sure taht you've observed the backlash on this and it is all politically driven.

I do believe that you will see the development of a Northern port and likely reversal of an existing East/West to Ontario/Quebec.... All of which will be at the direct expense of BC in lost opportunity costs.

If Christi approves the northern gateway there will be hell to pay in this Province.

Suit yourself... Enjoy the numerous hikes in: gas taxes, PST and other eco-initiatives taxes in the next few years

this company is not in keeping the objectives of BC residents.

Says you?

Since when do you know a thing about the company or have the capacity to speak on behalf of all BC residents.

PS - Clark has already indicated that she'll move the line through as long as BC gets their blackmail money.... Environmental concerns indeed.

Almost forgot to ask - how's that ongoing 100 year eco-disaster of Victoria dumping 100's of thousands of raw sewage into the ocean coming along?

Kinder Morgan is a different matter but the pipeline to the North forget it.

Of course it's different - it's been there for many years and you can't block it

I'm no tree hugger but I support the greenies on this one.

Not a tree-hugger?.. Go back and read your rants and unfounded accusations on this and then get back to me

I also don't want anything to do with Keystone, it sells out Canada plain and simple.

Thanks for the laugh... Canada is a resource export nation
 

hunboldt

Time Out
May 5, 2013
2,427
0
36
at my keyboard
Canadians have to step-up and assume their share of the blame on this.. Decades have passed and never was the move made to expand the customer base and reach.

I do like the idea you forward to the expenditure of the taxes although I might have to include a location a little closer for me... I'll make sure that you get an invitation to the party.



The Chinese petroleum companies are already here in droves and have pledged the money to build the p/l. Now it's just a matter of political will and having one (or more) approved.



In many ways it makes a lot of sense (especially in the long term). However, from an economics standpoint, there are existing ports on both coasts that will service the foreign demand.... That said, I'm sure taht you've observed the backlash on this and it is all politically driven.

I do believe that you will see the development of a Northern port and likely reversal of an existing East/West to Ontario/Quebec.... All of which will be at the direct expense of BC in lost opportunity costs.



Suit yourself... Enjoy the numerous hikes in: gas taxes, PST and other eco-initiatives taxes in the next few years



Says you?

Since when do you know a thing about the company or have the capacity to speak on behalf of all BC residents.

PS - Clark has already indicated that she'll move the line through as long as BC gets their blackmail money.... Environmental concerns indeed.

Almost forgot to ask - how's that ongoing 100 year eco-disaster of Victoria dumping 100's of thousands of raw sewage into the ocean coming along?



Of course it's different - it's been there for many years and you can't block it



Not a tree-hugger?.. Go back and read your rants and unfounded accusations on this and then get back to me



Thanks for the laugh... Canada is a resource export nation

YOU tell um bear you cutting. off victoria poo fed Salmon, tonto...