British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Sal

#1Feb 23rd, 2013

Here this will stir some things up within the church.

Cardinal Keith O’Brien, Britain’s most senior Catholic figure, points to ecclesiastical celibacy as having no ‘divine origin’

Britain’s most senior Catholic has suggested Catholic priests should be able to marry and have children, saying the demand for celibacy was not of “divine origin”.
In one of the most significant breaks with Catholic orthodoxy, Cardinal Keith O’Brien said many priests found it “very difficult to cope” with the celibate life and suggested lifting that ban could soon happen in the wider church.
The cardinal suggested that the next pope could review the marriage ban for priests. Marriage is allowed in some cases within the church already. The English Catholic church has accepted married former Anglican priests, under a policy introduced in 2011 by the present pope, Benedict XVI.

British cardinal: Next pope should review marriage ban since ‘Jesus didn’t say that’ | The Raw Story

He will be: the only Catholic from the UK involved in the conclave in the Vatican next month to choose Benedict’s successor.

O’Brien said he could “hardly believe it” when he heard Pope Benedict had announced his resignation. The cardinal said he would welcome a new, young pope from outside Europe for the first time.

Goober

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 23rd, 2013

As long as it is not this fellow who some say is in the running.

Virulent anti-Semite on short list to become next pope | Full Comment | National Post
Among those being considered to succeed Pope Benedict XVI is a notorious anti-Semite, Cardinal Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras. His name has appeared on various media short lists and his photograph was featured, along with other possible candidates, on the front page of the Miami Herald. He was also under consideration the last time around, and his Latin American heritage is considered a plus this time. He is very charismatic and popular in his home country and was recently invited to speak to Latino Catholics in the United States.

To put it most simply, Rodriguez Maradiaga is an out and out Jew-hater. He has said that “the Jews” are to blame for the scandal surrounding the sexual misconduct of priests toward young parishioners. The Jews? How did Rodriguez Maradiaga ever come up with this hare-brained idea? Here is his “logic”: He begins by asserting that the Vatican is anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian (as he says it should be). It follows, therefore, that “the Jews” had to get even with the Catholic Church, while at the same time deflecting attention away from Israeli injustices against the Palestinians. The Jews managed to do this by arranging for the media—which he says they control—to give disproportionate attention on the Vatican sex scandal.

Listen to Rodriguez Maradiaga’s own words:

“It certainly makes me think that in a moment in which all the attention of the mass media was focused on the Middle East, all the many injustices done against the Palestinian people, the print media and the TV in the United States became obsessed with sexual scandals that happened 40 years ago, 30 years ago. Why? I think it’s also for these motives: What is the church that has received Arafat the most times and has most often confirmed the necessity of the creation of a Palestinian state? What is the church that does not accept that Jerusalem should be the indivisible capital of the State of Israel, but that it should be the capital of the three great monotheistic religions?”
Rodriguez Maradiaga then goes on to compare the Jewish controlled media with “Hitler,” because they are “protagonists of what I do not hesitate to define as a persecution against The Church.”

Or this Cardinal who should be defrocked.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...-for-new-pope/

scandal in L.A. is similar to the scandal in Boston that eventually led Cardinal Bernard Law to resign as archbishop of Boston. One key difference is that, for years, Cardinal Mahony successfully fought the release of key personnel documents relating to his administration’s handling of abuse cases. Ultimately, a judge ordered their release.

READ: Cardinal Mahony Says He’s ‘Scapegoat’ in Scandal

The documents were so damning the current Archbishop of Los Angeles, Jose Gomez, issued a public rebuke of his predecessor. Gomez said Cardinal Mahony would no longer perform any public duties on behalf of the archdiocese.

For an archbishop to publicly upbraid a cardinal – who outranks him in the church hierarchy – was without precedent in recent history.

Just as Cardinal Law’s participation in the 2005 conclave became a focal point for anger over the abuse scandal, Cardinal Mahony is taking the heat this time around.

This week, a fellow prince of the church even chimed in, suggesting, in the most diplomatic way possible, that Mahony think twice before coming to Rome.

Speaking to the Italian newspaper La Repubblica, Cardinal Velasio de Paolis called it “disturbing” that Cardinal Mahony should participate in the election the new pope.

“But,” he noted, “the rules have to be respected.”

earth_as_one

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 23rd, 2013

In the early days of Christianity, most priests married. Celibacy came later.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerica...orical_origins

Goober

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 23rd, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one

In the early days of Christianity, most priests married. Celibacy came later.
Clerical celibacy (Catholic Church) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unknown to many is the fact that the Church has priest who are married. Ministers from other faiths who are married and convert can be accepted into the Priesthood.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/07/us...anted=all&_r=0

damngrumpy

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 23rd, 2013

Celibacy came as a result of many scandals at the time within the church and now
they have even worse scandals in the church as a result of an ill conceived idea.
It is long over due that this ban was lifted it has already ruined enough lives. Nothing
about a law that is Divine that destroys peoples lives

coldstream

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 23rd, 2013

It's true that Priestly Celibacy is a 'Church' law... not a religious law. But... celibacy has been deeply embedded in the Church since the Desert Fathers of the first centuries.. and in monastic communities ever since.. which are interconnected with the priesthood. You first have to understand that the Catholic priesthood is a sacrificial priesthood... whose primary responsibility in the celebration of the sacraments and at the heart of that is the Sacrifice of the Mass. It's not about worldy ambitions or distractions.

Married priests were allowed in the Church in the first millennium. It is still allowed under strict conditions in Eastern Rite churches.. (no marriage after ordination, no divorce.. and usually limited to parish priests not bishops). So hypothetically it could change. But don't bet on it. The core reason that marriage is not allowed is that it is a contradiction in vocations. The priest's vows to live in poverty, chastity, obedience to the Church.. ultimately cannnot be reconciled to the vocation of a married man.. whose prime responsibility is to his family.

It's really not even up for discussion.. as much so for women priestesses.

BTW.. the Abuse Scandals have NOTHING to do with celibacy.. they have everything to do with homosexuality in the priesthood. A high priority of the new Pontiff should be to purge the homosexuals who have inundated the priesthood.. into the Vatican itself.. as frauds to the vocation.

FiveParadox

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 23rd, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by coldstream

BTW.. the Abuse Scandals have NOTHING to do with celibacy.. they have everything to do with homosexuality in the priesthood. A high priority of the new Pontiff should be to purge the homosexuals who have inundated the priesthood.. into the Vatican itself.. as frauds to the vocation.

You've been talking some mad smack, coldstream.

In fact, there are a litany of causes for the sex abuse scandals that have rocked the Catholic church. Leading, by the way, to the bankruptcy of eight Catholic dioceses since 2004. The number of settlements has been tremendously alarming. The moral bankruptcy and hypocrisy is spectacular.

In 2003, the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Louisville paid $25.7 million to settle with 240 lawsuits involving church workers and 34 priests; also in 2003, the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston agreed to pay $85 million to settle with 552 victims. In 2007, the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Portland paid $75 million to 177 victims; the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Seattle paid $48 million to more than 160 victims; the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Los Angeles paid $660 million to over 500 victims; and, the Roman Catholic Diocese of San Diego paid $198.1 million to 144 victims. In 2008, the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Denver paid $5.5 million to 18 more victims.

1950-2007 settlements have been totaled an est. $2 billion. But who's counting?

Seminary Training
Catholic clergy themselves have suggested that seminary training for priests needs to be improved, due to inadequate emotional support for ordained men, and inadequate support to prepare for and endure celibacy. A recent memoir even suggests that there are some aspects of seminary training that actually predispose Catholic priests to sexually abuse minors.

Purported Treatment of Abusers
In the John Jay Report, released in 2004, it was revealed that up to 40% of priests and deacons who sexually abused minors were treated by psychiatrists before being reassigned to continue their functions as clergy. Before much of the research surrounding child sexual abuse was published, really picking up in the 1980s, the Catholic church thought that priests could simply be treated upon reports of abuse, and then promptly returned to work.

Homosexuality as a Cause?
This has been determined to not be a cause. It should be made clear that a man's sexual activity is not necessarily indicative of his self-identified sexual orientation (which is the only basis upon which sexual orientation can be considered and determined). Notwithstanding over 80% of reported victims being male, there is no statistical link between homosexuality and child sexual abuse in the church. There have been studies to demonstrate this (see sources).

Sources

Archdiocese to pay victims $25.7 for sex abuse (source)
Boston archdiocese agrees to pay a record $85 million to victims of abuse (source)
Portland archdiocese ends bankruptcy with $75 million settlement (source)
Archdiocese to pay $660M for claims (source)
San Diego priest abuse claims settled (source)
Denver archdiocese settles 18 sex-abuse cases (source)
Study: Gays not to blame for pedophile priests (source)
A unique perspective on sexual abuse by priests (source)
The nature and scope of the problem of sexual abuse of minors by priests and deacons (source)
The causes and context of sexual abuse of minors by Catholic priests in the United States (source)
Church report cites social tumult in priest scandals (source)

Spade

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 23rd, 2013

Most rites in the Catholic Church permit a married priesthood. The Latin Rite which is only one of many equals is the exception. Mind you there are as Goober said numerous married priests in the Latin Rite as well. It is overdue, and so are women priests.
Certainly would help reduce scandal.

Besides, Jesus was a Jew not a Catholic.

wulfie68

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 23rd, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by coldstream

BTW.. the Abuse Scandals have NOTHING to do with celibacy.. they have everything to do with homosexuality in the priesthood. A high priority of the new Pontiff should be to purge the homosexuals who have inundated the priesthood.. into the Vatican itself.. as frauds to the vocation.

Bulls***.

First, most of the scandals involve pedophiles, not homosexuals. The 2 are not the same. Get over your uneducated hate.

Secondly, if you don't think the scandals are not at least in part abetted by the vow of celibacy that priests are required to take, you're an idiot: if they have legitimate, lawful ways to release sexual tension, then there won't be as much need to find clandestine ways to do it.

This doesn't mean that all scandals will disappear but the cases of abuse will probably drop to be more in line with the rest of society (assuming of course they are elevated to begin with). There exists the possibility that new scandals could arise from possible nepotism (like in the days of the Borgias) but it also documented that the mandatory vows of celibacy prove an impediment to attracting new priests into the clergy; something widely bemoaned in the Western Church.

karrie

#10 Top Rated Post

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 23rd, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by coldstream

BTW.. the Abuse Scandals have NOTHING to do with celibacy.. they have everything to do with homosexuality in the priesthood. A high priority of the new Pontiff should be to purge the homosexuals who have inundated the priesthood.. into the Vatican itself.. as frauds to the vocation.

Odd. I'd have thought the pedophilia in the priesthood had to do with pedophilia.

Quote: Originally Posted by Spade

Certainly would help reduce scandal.

Yes, because thankfully pedophiles never get married.

The only thing that will help protect children is to teach them and institutions that no one is above the law. Teachers, priests, police, firemen, doctors... none of them.

Quote: Originally Posted by wulfie68

Secondly, if you don't think the scandals are not at least in part abetted by the vow of celibacy that priests are required to take, you're an idiot: if they have legitimate, lawful ways to release sexual tension, then there won't be as much need to find clandestine ways to do it.

Priests who are not pedophiles give in sometimes and break their vows. Hookers, affairs, etc. But celibacy can't turn a man into a pedophile. Priests who abuse children do so because they are pedophiles, plain and simple, celibacy or not.

The notion that a dry spell could drive a man to sex with children is abhorrently twisted thinking of the sort that saw families bury abuse because wives blamed themselves.

Spade

#11

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 23rd, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by karrie

Odd. Yes, because thankfully pedophiles never get married.

Many thousands of priests left their vocation because they wished to marry. The Church protected and transferred from parish to parish paedophile priests,in part, because of a priest shortage.

Why the problem then in the Latin Rite?

Not all scandals involve paedophilia.
Thoughts on the Vatican's 'gay lobby' | National Catholic Reporter
Legion of Christ's deception, unearthed in new documents, indicates wider cover-up | National Catholic Reporter

The Old Medic

#12

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 23rd, 2013

In actual fact, there are thousands of married Priests in the Catholic Church, who did not convert.

The Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church almost all allow a married man to be ordained a Priest. You MUST marry before you are ordained a Deacon, or you can never marry. If you want to try to become a Bishop, you also do not marry (or your wife must die before you can become a Bishop).

For those that do not know about the Eastern Rites, these are the Churches in Greece, Russia, the Balkans, etc. that either did not split away when the Orthodox did, or they later came back within the authority of Rome. Most of their services are essentially identical with their Orthodox counterparts (e.g. Russian Orthodox - Russian Catholic; Greek Orthodox - Greek Catholic; Syrian Orthodox - Syrian Catholic, etc.). It is just that they acknowledge the Bishop of Rome as the head of the entire church.

Many Latin Rite Catholics are not even aware that there are Eastern Rite Churches in the Catholic Church. And the vast majority of Protestants have little in the way of actual knowledge about the Catholic Church, much les that there are various Rites within it.

Spade

#13

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 23rd, 2013

Well, of course!

And if an Eastern cleric were chosen pope, it would breathe more fresh air into the institution than Vatican II ever dreamt of.

gopher

#14

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 23rd, 2013

Clerics in the Bible were married. Thus, no basis for celibacy.

Spade

#15

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 24th, 2013

Yes, rabbis were married; it was a necessary condition. Jesus was called "Rabbi" by his followers. Therefore, Jesus was married.
QED

Cliffy

#16

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 24th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by Spade

Yes, rabbis were married; it was a necessary condition. Jesus was called "Rabbi" by his followers. Therefore, Jesus was married.
QED

Doesn't rabbi just mean teacher? Kinda like guru?

Jesus, if he existed, would have been married. The church removed most references to his marriage because somehow to them, knowing a woman in a carnal sense would make him seem less gawd like. What a silly perception, unless you happen to be a male chauvinist pig.

Spade

#17

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 24th, 2013

Yes, it means master or lord-a term of respect. I was being obnoxious.

So unlike me...

Goober

#18

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 24th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by Spade

Yes, rabbis were married; it was a necessary condition. Jesus was called "Rabbi" by his followers. Therefore, Jesus was married.
QED

Did some checking and Rabbis were not required to marry.

coldstream

#19

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 24th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by karrie

Odd. I'd have thought the pedophilia in the priesthood had to do with pedophilia.

Yes, because thankfully pedophiles never get married. .

Actually in the vast majority of cases it had to do with homosexual pederasty.. which differs from pedophilia.. involving the predation and sexual abuse of vulnerable adolescent males.

Machjo

#20

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 24th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by Sal

Here this will stir some things up within the church.

Cardinal Keith O’Brien, Britain’s most senior Catholic figure, points to ecclesiastical celibacy as having no ‘divine origin’

Britain’s most senior Catholic has suggested Catholic priests should be able to marry and have children, saying the demand for celibacy was not of “divine origin”.
In one of the most significant breaks with Catholic orthodoxy, Cardinal Keith O’Brien said many priests found it “very difficult to cope” with the celibate life and suggested lifting that ban could soon happen in the wider church.
The cardinal suggested that the next pope could review the marriage ban for priests. Marriage is allowed in some cases within the church already. The English Catholic church has accepted married former Anglican priests, under a policy introduced in 2011 by the present pope, Benedict XVI.

British cardinal: Next pope should review marriage ban since ‘Jesus didn’t say that’ | The Raw Story

He will be: the only Catholic from the UK involved in the conclave in the Vatican next month to choose Benedict’s successor.

O’Brien said he could “hardly believe it” when he heard Pope Benedict had announced his resignation. The cardinal said he would welcome a new, young pope from outside Europe for the first time.

That's a slippery slope. I don't remember the Gospel establishing a priesthood as such either.

FiveParadox

#21

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 24th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by coldstream

Actually in the vast majority of cases it had to do with homosexual pederasty.. which differs from pedophilia.. involving the predation and sexual abuse of vulnerable adolescent males.

Actually in the vast majority of cases it had nothing to do with homosexuality.

See the half-dozen studies I cited above. Where's your proof? Or are you going to continue blowing smoke?

coldstream

-3

#22

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 24th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by FiveParadox

Actually in the vast majority of cases it had nothing to do with homosexuality.

See the half-dozen studies I cited above. Where's your proof? Or are you going to continue blowing smoke?

Of course they had to do with homosexuality. I don't consider any of your studies valid.. They mostly seem to deal with existence of pedarasty in the priesthhood.. which i've never denied.

Church studies show that between 4 - 6% of priests in the West have commited pederasty.. going from a single isolated act to habitual behaviour involving scores or even hundreds of young men. It is much less prevelant in the Developing World, where there are stronger social prohibitions against homosexuality.

That sais nothing of the Church or its rules for celibacy.. only that there is a group of degenerate imposters in the priesthood.. who entered the life because it provided a convenient cover, protection (at one time) and opportunities for their crimes.

There's any number of phony academic studies out there.. always in service of some political agenda.. and none is more powerful.. or more corrupt now than than of lobby for homosexual affirmation, legitimization and celebration.

Cliffy

#23

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 24th, 2013

And denial isn't a river in Egypt.

karrie

#24

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 24th, 2013

Lumping sexual predators in with consensual sexuality of any sort is flawed. I find the notion of attempting to label homosexuality according to the actions of pedophiles or ephebophiles as flawed as attempting to claim that all straight men are rapists just because some are.

gerryh

+3 / -1

#25

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 24th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by coldstream

Of course they had to do with homosexuality. I don't consider any of your studies valid..

That's because you're an ignorant, brainless bigot. It's because of ignorant fu ckwads like yourself that the Catholic Church is in the fix it is in right now.

Spade

#26

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 24th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by Goober

Did some checking and Rabbis were not required to marry.

Can a Rabbi Get Married? - Marriage

gopher

#27

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 24th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by Goober

Did some checking and Rabbis were not required to marry.

The Bible does not require rabbis to marry. In the Talmud it is suggested that an unmarried man could not be qualified to teach Torah to children. But it is not explicitly stated that a rabbi has to be married.

JBG

#28

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 24th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by Sal

Here this will stir some things up within the church.

Cardinal Keith O’Brien, Britain’s most senior Catholic figure, points to ecclesiastical celibacy as having no ‘divine origin’

Britain’s most senior Catholic has suggested Catholic priests should be able to marry and have children, saying the demand for celibacy was not of “divine origin”.
In one of the most significant breaks with Catholic orthodoxy, Cardinal Keith O’Brien said many priests found it “very difficult to cope” with the celibate life and suggested lifting that ban could soon happen in the wider church.

The Protestant Church was founded in large part because much of Catholicism had nothing to do with Jesus or the Bible. Then again who am I to say? I only use the Old Testament.

Quote: Originally Posted by gopher

The Bible does not require rabbis to marry. In the Talmud it is suggested that an unmarried man could not be qualified to teach Torah to children. But it is not explicitly stated that a rabbi has to be married.

What is encouraged is that Rabbis be fully involved in the community and ordinary life.

Spade

#29

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 25th, 2013

To help stem the flow of scandal, priests should be permitted to marry in the Latin Rite. Celibacy should be optional. Even the Cardinal in the OP is under a cloud. Time to acknowledged that priests should be allowed to express their sexuality.

Serryah

#30

Re: British Cardinal Says: Jesus didn't say priests shouldn't marry.

Feb 25th, 2013

Quote: Originally Posted by coldstream

Of course they had to do with homosexuality. I don't consider any of your studies valid.. They mostly seem to deal with existence of pedarasty in the priesthhood.. which i've never denied.

Church studies show that between 4 - 6% of priests in the West have commited pederasty.. going from a single isolated act to habitual behaviour involving scores or even hundreds of young men. It is much less prevelant in the Developing World, where there are stronger social prohibitions against homosexuality.

That sais nothing of the Church or its rules for celibacy.. only that there is a group of degenerate imposters in the priesthood.. who entered the life because it provided a convenient cover, protection (at one time) and opportunities for their crimes.

There's any number of phony academic studies out there.. always in service of some political agenda.. and none is more powerful.. or more corrupt now than than of lobby for homosexual affirmation, legitimization and celebration.

You know what, Coldstream, it doesn't matter WHAT your sexual preference is, abusing kids sexually is WRONG. End of story, full stop, no passing go.

Such things are disgusting not only to straight people, but also a lot of gays. Pedophiles are PEDOPHILES, when it comes to abuse of kids, it's got nothing to do with sex in any sort of normal sense. It's power; it's that power that allows an adult of either sex to abuse a child of either sex. As disgusting as it is to think about, it's the power to get someone to do something to you, which feels "good", and you are in total and complete control.

The only difference between an adult sexually abusive relationship and a child sexually abusive relationship is the innocence and youth of the child. In essence, it's still all about the same thing; Power.

Your adamant continual ignorance that says these... things (because face it, pedophiles of any sex are not worth being called human) are strictly "gay" is just...

I am going to say it. To continually say that the pedophiles doing this to kids are ALL gay in my eyes makes you JUST as bad as them.

By your logic, we should also start claiming that all pedophiles are heterosexuals, because there are opposite sex abuse going on as well. And we could, except you seem to think it can't happen, that all pedophiles are homosexual. Well they're not. These things used opportunity and the male dominance of their positions (priesthood) and the male focus of their institution (men dominate the Catholic Church) to prey on mostly boys (because boys are the "helpers" of most churches). That's why it's mostly male/male. It has nothing to do with gender but all to do with accessibility and availability.

Your continual lies and half-to-non truths about this entire subject does nothing but harm innocent gay men by lumping them into a disgusting practice that has nothing to do with gayness what so ever.

And if you are a representation of what your "God" believes, then I hope your faith dies a quick and painful death soon.

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