Woman denied haircut goes to Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario


Locutus
#1
A request for a lunch-hour haircut has turned into a battle over human rights, pitting freedom of religion against a woman’s right not to be denied service based on her gender.

Faith McGregor walked into the Terminal Barber Shop on Bay St. in June to get a haircut — the “businessman,” short on the sides, tapered, trim the top. The shop, like many barbers in Toronto, doesn’t do women’s haircuts. But McGregor, 35, said she wanted a men’s cut.

Shop co-owner Omar Mahrouk told her his Muslim faith prohibits him from touching a woman who is not a member of his family. All the other barbers said the same thing.

“For me it was just a haircut and started out about me being a woman. Now we’re talking about religion versus gender versus human rights and businesses in Ontario,” said McGregor.

She filed a complaint with the Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario almost immediately, saying she felt like a “second-class citizen.”


more about this whining


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/arti...nal-of-ontario


 
Most helpful post: The members here have rated this post as best reply.
SLM
+8
#2  Top Rated Post
Well, all I can say is it's a good thing we've solved world hunger, crime, poverty and that there are no more wars so that we can focus on this really important stuff.
 
lone wolf
+2
#3
She could have gone to the competition. What sort of "business" person is she?
 
karrie
+3
#4
Why would you want to force someone to touch you, who doesn't want to? Let them do a reduced business, that's their problem.
 
eh1eh
+1
#5
HR Tribunal is for sucky babies. So now it's the battle of Homo against Muslim.
Hey, just thought, when the Muslim guy finds out she's a homo he'll have two reasons not to cut her hair.
 
Goober
+3
#6
My opinion- They are in business. They are discriminating based upon sex.
When it was people that perform civil marriages wanting the ability to opt out based upon Religious belief Oh my the uproar on this forum.
But then again they were Christians.
 
taxslave
+2
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

My opinion- They are in business. They are discriminating based upon sex.
When it was people that perform civil marriages wanting the ability to opt out based upon Religious belief Oh my the uproar on this forum.
But then again they were Christians.

I get your point but I don't think it is quite the same thing. The marriage commissioners are government employees delivering a government service.
 
Goober
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

I get your point but I don't think it is quite the same thing. The marriage commissioners are government employees delivering a government service.

When a black man walks into a business and is turned away based up color - when a homosexual goes for a taxi and the driver refuse because it is against his religious belief to associate with gays. Tell me where it ends. This is not about reasonable accommodation- what a useless term-

This is about a persons right to enter a licensed business providing a service and be served.

And this is purely discrimination based upon a religious and or cultural beliefs.
 
Praxius
+5
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

My opinion- They are in business. They are discriminating based upon sex.

As a male, why don't you try getting a membership to Curves (external - login to view).

Hell I got dirty looks just for stepping inside the doorway as I waiting for my ex to talk to the employees about a membership. They treated me like a fk'n sex criminal and I didn't even do a damn thing except stand there and be a male.... there wasn't anybody else there doing anything anyways, just the employees standing around talking.

If they can refuse male membership on the grounds that some of the women exercising might get "Uncomfortable" and if they can treat a man like they treated me just by standing in the entranceway waiting for my girlfriend.... than these guys can refuse to cut a woman's hair in a Barbershop based on religious beliefs... which is more justified.

Now a days, you'll easily find "Women Only" businesses and services & it's accepted by society, but any time there's a business that focuses on Men or is completely designed for Men Only, suddenly it's a Human Rights issue and society should string them up for even attempting to do anything that focuses on men only.

Give me a fk'n break.

They wouldn't cut her hair?

Go down the damn street to one of the thousands of other barbershops / hair salons that are available.

What a Wanker.

Their barbershop is a PRIVATE BUSINESS.... it is not a Public Service.
Last edited by Praxius; Nov 15th, 2012 at 09:05 PM..
 
gerryh
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

My opinion- They are in business. They are discriminating based upon sex.
When it was people that perform civil marriages wanting the ability to opt out based upon Religious belief Oh my the uproar on this forum.
But then again they were Christians.


Taxslave already answered, but I will reiterate. The people that you are talking about were/are public employees and therefore should NOT be discriminating against anyone. They can always get a different job. Their wages are paid by EVERY taxpayer. Homosexual and otherwise.

No what Goob, if I walk into a house with a broken furnace and I smell pot, or there is a mess around the furnace, I can walk right back out of that house and refuse them service. It is MY right. They can always call another heating company.
 
Goober
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by PraxiusView Post

As a male, why don't you try getting a membership to Curves (external - login to view).

Hell I got dirty looks just for stepping inside the doorway as I waiting for my ex to talk to the employees about a membership.

If they can refuse male membership on the grounds that some of the women exercising might get "Uncomfortable" than these guys can refuse to cut a woman's hair in a Barbershop based on religious beliefs... which is more justified.

Now a days, you'll easily find "Women Only" businesses and services & it's accepted by society, but any time there's a business that focuses on Men or is completely designed for Men Only, suddenly it's a Human Rights issue and society should string them up for even attempting to do anything that focuses on men only.

Give me a fk'n break.

They wouldn't cut her hair?

Go down the damn street to one of the thousands of other barbershops / hair salons that are available.

What a Wanker.

True there are women only businesses. And there is a reason for that. Upheld by a variety of courts in Canada. And they serve a well documented purpose.

So I ask do they discriminate based upon some of the following

Religion

Sexual orientation

Ethnicity

The way a person looks

Nope.

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

Taxslave already answered, but I will reiterate. The people that you are talking about were/are public employees and therefore should NOT be discriminating against anyone. They can always get a different job. Their wages are paid by EVERY taxpayer. Homosexual and otherwise.

No what Goob, if I walk into a house with a broken furnace and I smell pot, or there is a mess around the furnace, I can walk right back out of that house and refuse them service. It is MY right. They can always call another heating company.

I realize that a business can refuse service.
 
gerryh
+4
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post



I realize that a business can refuse service.


Ok, and this Barber refused service. That should be the end of it.
 
Goober
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

Ok, and this Barber refused service. That should be the end of it.

The barber refused service based upon a persons sex. Discrimination.
 
Cannuck
+1
#14
The barber refused to serve her because she had a v agina. I wonder what people would say if he refused to serve her because her t its weren't big enough.
Last edited by Cannuck; Nov 15th, 2012 at 09:30 PM..
 
gerryh
+4
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

The barber refused service based upon a persons sex. Discrimination.



It was a mens Barber shop. Owned by and operated by Muslim men. I smell a set up.
 
Goober
+2
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post



It was a mens Barber shop. Owned by and operated by Muslim men. I smell a set up.

Possibly, we know that it has been done for Christians and such. Trying to think of the Catholic Organization that after they were aware refused to rent a hall to a same sex marriage. In my opinion that was a setup.
 
PoliticalNick
+1
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

When a black man walks into a business and is turned away based up color - when a homosexual goes for a taxi and the driver refuse because it is against his religious belief to associate with gays. Tell me where it ends. This is not about reasonable accommodation- what a useless term-

This is about a persons right to enter a licensed business providing a service and be served.

And this is purely discrimination based upon a religious and or cultural beliefs.

Have you never seen a sign that says "we reserve the right to refuse service"? It is entirely within the rights of the owner/manager of any private business to refuse service. End of story and should be end of complaint.
 
captain morgan
+4
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

True there are women only businesses. And there is a reason for that. Upheld by a variety of courts in Canada. And they serve a well documented purpose.


Can't have it both ways buddy.

Either you are obliged to deliver service to all that walk through your door, or you are not obliged.
 
Praxius
+6
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

True there are women only businesses. And there is a reason for that. Upheld by a variety of courts in Canada. And they serve a well documented purpose.

Like what?

These guys have their religious beliefs saying that can't touch another female other than their wife or family member.... that's not discrimination, it's no different than Christianity telling you not to sleep around with more than your wife, just a bit more on the extreme end of the spectrum.

There is no law that forces me to place my hands on another person if I am not comfortable with doing so, including situations where someone's life is at risk.

Quote:

So I ask do they discriminate based upon some of the following

Religion

Sexual orientation

Ethnicity

The way a person looks

Nope.

Nice that you forgot to mention gender/sex.... which is the exact reason why you seem so PO'd about the Barbershop thing.... they refused service based on her being a female, as well as their own religious beliefs.

Curves just refuses service and treats you like scum based on being a male.... with no other justifications.

Again, you said:

"My opinion- They are in business. They are discriminating based upon sex."

So does Curves, but now here you are trying to spin it in your favour to make what Curves does "Ok" while what these guys did in their barbershop is not "Ok" and they're a business that should provide a service regardless of their gender.

Hypocrite.

Here's something left out of the original quote in the OP:

Quote:

“We live for our values. We are people who have values and we hold on to it. I am not going to change what the faith has stated to us to do. This is not extreme — this is just a basic value that we follow,” said Karim Saaden, co-owner of the Terminal Barber Shop.

He noted that it was a matter of adherence to faith, not a gender issue.

“In our faith, for instance, I can cut my mother’s hair, I can cut my sister’s hair, I can cut my wife’s hair, my daughter’s hair,” said Saaden.

It's not sexual discrimination and clearly stated why.

Quote:

The barbershop suggested a solution to McGregor toward the end of August, offering her a haircut from a barber willing to do so.

“It’s the principle of the matter so I turned down their lawyer’s offer and said, ‘No, I wish to continue with the tribunal,’ because this needs to be discussed and now it’s bigger than what occurred with me that one day, in one afternoon,” said McGregor.

She is asking the tribunal to force Terminal Barber Shop to offer its men’s haircuts to both genders, and suggests in her application that the shop post a sign indicating it serves both men and women. She is not seeking money.


^ Proof that she's just being a self-righteous b*tch seeking attention.

It's bigger than what occurred with her that day because she's trying to make it bigger than it really is.

And because she has issues with Muslims (obviously) she wants to humiliate them and force them to do what she wants, and basically force them to wear "idiot signs" like that woman in the US who drove up on a sidewalk to avoid a school bus stopping.....

.... She's not seeking money.... she's seeking to force them out of business.

And that's what will happen because she's attempting to force them to choose between their religion and their job.
 
Goober
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by captain morganView Post

Can't have it both ways buddy.

Either you are obliged to deliver service to all that walk through your door, or you are not obliged.

According to Laws in Canada yes you can.
 
Bar Sinister
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

Why would you want to force someone to touch you, who doesn't want to? Let them do a reduced business, that's their problem.

It may not be quite that simple. What if your religion or other deeply held beliefs also prevents paramedics from touching a woman; or a doctor for that matter? Or what if your religious beliefs extend to excude blacks or orther minorities? The fact is someone engaed in a business that serves the public must make his business open to all who wants to use it or we end up with what American Blacks faced during the segregation era.

You are right about bigots probably cutting off their noses to spite their faces, but that does not mean that they should be allowed to do so.
 
gerryh
+2
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by Bar SinisterView Post

It may not be quite that simple. What if your religion or other deeply held beliefs also prevents paramedics from touching a woman; or a doctor for that matter? Or what if your religious beliefs extend to excude blacks or orther minorities? The fact is someone engaed in a business that serves the public must make his business open to all who wants to use it or we end up with what American Blacks faced during the segregation era.

You are right about bigots probably cutting off their noses to spite their faces, but that does not mean that they should be allowed to do so.


Ya, they opened a mens Barber. They serve the "public" by offering hair cuts to men. Period.
 
Ron in Regina
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

Taxslave already answered, but I will reiterate. The people that you are talking about were/are public employees and therefore should NOT be discriminating against anyone. They can always get a different job. Their wages are paid by EVERY taxpayer. Homosexual and otherwise.

No what Goob, if I walk into a house with a broken furnace and I smell pot, or there is a mess around the furnace, I can walk right back out of that house and refuse them service. It is MY right. They can always call another heating company.


OH....I am sooo choked. "The People" above you refer to is actually "a person." I had a
well thought out response that I'd spend considerable time composing, explaining that
he is NOT a public employee, but that he had a license that he had to purchase to renew
annually from the Gov't.

Anyway, I'm choked 'cuz near the end of this thourow explanation, my computer hiccuped,
and it was just gone. Ugh!!!

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post



It was a mens Barber shop. Owned by and operated by Muslim men. I smell a set up.

Yeah, exactly like the example above of the "The People" who is actually just a "person."
 
Praxius
+7
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by Bar SinisterView Post

It may not be quite that simple. What if your religion or other deeply held beliefs also prevents paramedics from touching a woman; or a doctor for that matter?

Bad example, as Doctors and Paramedics are a Public Service, not a Private Business.

Anybody seeking those jobs holding the above religious beliefs would be idiots to think they wouldn't have to touch someone of the opposite sex eventually and would have washed out long ago during their education / training.

Quote:

Or what if your religious beliefs extend to excude blacks or orther minorities?

Indeed.... "WHAT IF"

What If??

Like what religious beliefs? What real world examples in Western Society do you have to make this "What If" worth responding to?

Quote:

The fact is someone engaed in a business that serves the public must make his business open to all who wants to use it or we end up with what American Blacks faced during the segregation era.

Hardly, and if that is truly the case.... again, stop ignoring my example of Curves and address that, because they're a worldwide, multi-million dollar business that gets away with doing the exact same thing every single day.

They meet your criteria of a business that serves the public, but continually allowed the green light to discriminate against men without a bat of an eye from most.

Is it discrimination for Big and Tall stores only supply clothing for Big & Tall people?

Is it discrimination for ******* to only employ female waitresses and no male waitresses? (Seriously?? Who'Ters is censored??)

Is it discrimination for Chippendales to only hire men??

Is it discrimination for Victoria Secret to focus so much on women's underwear and not men as well??

How far down the rabbit hole do you wish to go here?
 
captain morgan
+1
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

According to Laws in Canada yes you can.

Human Rights Tribunals aren't the Law
 
Serryah
+3
#26
If they were the only place in town, she might have a case but this is just... beyond stupid.

If she was offered a chance to have someone else cut her hair at the same place, and refused it, IMO it's no longer about the gender, it's about this person throwing a tizzy fit over not getting her hair cut by guys who say it's against their religion to do so. If the business is willing to compensate somehow, but she refuses, all credibility she might have had for this is gone.

Sorry, no pity, no sympathy, no empathy, just a woman who needs to get over herself.
 
JamesBondo
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by LocutusView Post

A request for a lunch-hour haircut has turned into a battle over human rights, pitting freedom of religion against a woman’s right not to be denied service based on her gender.

Faith McGregor walked into the Terminal Barber Shop on Bay St. in June to get a haircut — the “businessman,” short on the sides, tapered, trim the top. The shop, like many barbers in Toronto, doesn’t do women’s haircuts. But McGregor, 35, said she wanted a men’s cut.

Shop co-owner Omar Mahrouk told her his Muslim faith prohibits him from touching a woman who is not a member of his family. All the other barbers said the same thing.

“For me it was just a haircut and started out about me being a woman. Now we’re talking about religion versus gender versus human rights and businesses in Ontario,” said McGregor.

She filed a complaint with the Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario almost immediately, saying she felt like a “second-class citizen.”


more about this whining


Woman denied haircut goes to Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario - thestar.com


She called this business discrimination based on gender, but what if we look at this from a different angle? What if we call this gender discrimination based on religion?
 
Goober
#28
Stopps v. Just Ladies Fitness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (external - login to view)
 
Bar Sinister
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by PraxiusView Post

Bad example, as Doctors and Paramedics are a Public Service, not a Private Business.

Anybody seeking those jobs holding the above religious beliefs would be idiots to think they wouldn't have to touch someone of the opposite sex eventually and would have washed out long ago during their education / training.



Indeed.... "WHAT IF"

What If??

Like what religious beliefs? What real world examples in Western Society do you have to make this "What If" worth responding to?



Hardly, and if that is truly the case.... again, stop ignoring my example of Curves and address that, because they're a worldwide, multi-million dollar business that gets away with doing the exact same thing every single day.

They meet your criteria of a business that serves the public, but continually allowed the green light to discriminate against men without a bat of an eye from most.

Is it discrimination for Big and Tall stores only supply clothing for Big & Tall people?

Is it discrimination for ******* to only employ female waitresses and no male waitresses? (Seriously?? Who'Ters is censored??)

Is it discrimination for Chippendales to only hire men??

Is it discrimination for Victoria Secret to focus so much on women's underwear and not men as well??

How far down the rabbit hole do you wish to go here?

My example is perfect. Most doctors in Canada are private, not public services. And are you trying to tell me that there are no Muslim paramedics in Canada? I suspect there are probably many Muslim paramedics in Canada who have decided that helping women is just part of their job.

Relgion has long be used to justify acts of discrimination. In the US various racists used Christianity as jjustification for discrimination against Blacks, referring to them as the "Sons of Ham." The fact that the Sons of Ham probably never existed was beside the point; their religion said such discrimination was justified and therefore it was. To go farther have you noticed the many violations of human rights practiced by many Muslims? Try throwing acid in the face of your daughter for a start. What we have here is an immigrant to Canada who wants to introduce his religious practices into the Canadian marketplace.

As for your examples of Chippendale's and Victoria's Secret you are defelcting the discussion with a red herring. This is about a person who wanted a business that was supposedly open to the public to give her the service it advertised. She wanted a haircut; not to become a barber, she wanted the Muslim barber to cut her hair; not hire her.

We have almost a million people of Muslim descent in Canada now. Are we to except all of these people from the standards we expect of all other businesses? If so the Supreme Court of Canada is going to have to rule differently than it has in the past. I expect this appeal to the Human Rights Commission to be upheld. But we will just have to wait and see on that.
 
petros
+2
#30
Why didn't she just take it down to the wood with clippers like a real man?
 
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