Mom defends boyfriend accused of abusing, killing tot


SLM
#1
Mom defends boyfriend accused of abusing, killing tot

By Chris Doucette, QMI Agency

Keagan Davis was covered in bruises and suffered a litany of untreated broken bones within three months of Michael Monckton moving into the toddler’s home, a jury heard Friday.
Davis, 2, died Jan. 5, 2010, while in the care of Monckton, his mom’s live-in boyfriend, who now stands accused of murder.
But in a day-and-a half on the witness stand, Leigh-Ann Worrall, 26, has yet to even hint she suspected Monckton, 28, was responsible for the injuries her child suffered leading up to his death.
Crown attorney Paul Murray showed the jury and Worrall photos of Keagan before and after Monckton came into his life in the fall of 2009.
He appears to be a normal, happy child in all of the pictures.
But in the images shot around Christmas 2009, after Monckton was laid off and had taken over the childcare duties while Worrall worked, bruises began to show.


In one photo the tot appears to have a broken blood vessel in his eye. His mom testified it was a “spider vein.”
Worrall also explained her son had a string of accidents he had in the weeks before he died, which is what Monckton told Durham Regional Police homicide detectives after his arrest Jan. 7, 2010.
In one incident, two weeks before Christmas, Worrall said Monckton “slipped” with Keagan in his arms and fell down the stairs of their basement apartment in Oshawa.
She said her boyfriend told her about the fall when she got home from work. Keagan was already in bed, so it wasn’t until the next day she saw the bruises on his spine and lower back.
On Jan. 28, Worrall said Keagan had another fall while she was sick in bed.
Her son, who was also ill, was apparently at the table eating when he turned to be sick, “slipped” off his chair and landed “face first” on the floor.
Worrall said she came out and saw Keagan on the floor covered in vomit. His nose was bleeding and he had bitten through his lip.
Monckton was with Keagan and told her what happened.
That incident left Keagan’s cheek and nose badly bruised, which could be seen in photos of Keagan playing video games and eating a gingerbread house with Monckton’s two children and niece — pictures he shot while watching the four kids.
On Jan. 2, 2010, Keagan came home from visiting Monckton’s family with a bruised shoulder, Worrall said. Her boyfriend said his nephew pushed the tot into a wooden highchair.
The forensic pathologist who conducted the autopsy has testified Keagan had internal bleeding in his belly as well as broken fingers, ribs, vertebrae and a forearm. Some injuries were allegedly recent and some occurred “weeks to months” earlier.
Monckton has pleaded not guilty to second-degree murder, assault causing bodily harm and aggravated assault.

Mom defends boyfriend accused of abusing, killing tot - Crime - Canoe.ca

Repeated incidents such as the ones described and she never doubted, never questioned? This woman is complicit in the death of her child because of what she 'chose' not to see.
 
Niflmir
+1
#2
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

Repeated incidents such as the ones described and she never doubted, never questioned? This woman is complicit in the death of her child because of what she 'chose' not to see.

Isn't that the biggest problem with domestic violence though? Often the victim through fear or loneliness rationalizes the actions and tries to defend the perpetrator. Then the prosecution has to attack the credibility of the witness, which is always a bit of a fine line.

Couldn't we just slip some cocaine into his possession? A strict liability crime like that has a much less stringent standard of evidence than killing a toddler.

In hindsight, the biggest problem with domestic violence is the violence. The biggest problem with the prosecution is the victim defending their attacker.
 
SLM
+3
#3  Top Rated Post
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

Isn't that the biggest problem with domestic violence though? Often the victim through fear or loneliness rationalizes the actions and tries to defend the perpetrator. Then the prosecution has to attack the credibility of the witness, which is always a bit of a fine line.

Couldn't we just slip some cocaine into his possession? A strict liability crime like that has a much less stringent standard of evidence than killing a toddler.

In hindsight, the biggest problem with domestic violence is the violence. The biggest problem with the prosecution is the victim defending their attacker.

I can buy, up to a certain extent, the psychological hold an abuser has over his/her victim. There's no denying that it exists, I've seen it personally. But there is also no denying that, when it comes right down to brass tacks, it is still a choice being made. An unhealthy one to be sure, but still a choice.

What I have a difficult time fathoming though is how a mother could have such denial about the suffering of her young child after only three months of a relationship. These broken bones were untreated, as stated in the article, which means that even if she completely bought into his 'excuses' she still did not seek medical care for her toddler. That, to me, crosses a line from victim into participant. I don't think it would be a stretch to see her as a co-defendant instead of a 'witness'.
 
JLM
#4
How sad can it get? How much more disgusting can a mother be?
 
Niflmir
+3
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

I can buy, up to a certain extent, the psychological hold an abuser has over his/her victim. There's no denying that it exists, I've seen it personally. But there is also no denying that, when it comes right down to brass tacks, it is still a choice being made. An unhealthy one to be sure, but still a choice.

What I have a difficult time fathoming though is how a mother could have such denial about the suffering of her young child after only three months of a relationship. These broken bones were untreated, as stated in the article, which means that even if she completely bought into his 'excuses' she still did not seek medical care for her toddler. That, to me, crosses a line from victim into participant. I don't think it would be a stretch to see her as a co-defendant instead of a 'witness'.

Certainly, there was negligence there, but that is a difficult line to draw. What is incredible is how much vetting people who want to adopt a child must go through compared to the level of incompetence that is acceptable before child protective services comes in.

On the flip side, I have heard stories where the child suffered sports related injuries but the school called child protective services anyways (or it was the ex spouse in some cases). Then you have some people invade your life insinuating that sending your child to bed without dessert because they did not clean their room is evidence of negligence. Don't even try to mention spanking to those people either...

I agree, this woman is a sad case. But I see child protective services is a sledgehammer, not a scalpel.
 
IdRatherBeSkiing
+2
#6
fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me.

I may have accepted the first 'excuse' but would have become suspicious on the next one. Actually, I would have been suspicious after the first one and kept my eyes and ears open.
 
TenPenny
+1
#7
The mother is an accessory to murder, and should be sterilized.
 
CDNBear
+2
#8
Quote:

That incident left Keagan’s cheek and nose badly bruised, which could be seen in photos of Keagan playing video games and eating a gingerbread house with Monckton’s two children and niece — pictures he shot while watching the four kids.

Why would you memorialize the results of abuse?
 
JLM
+2
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

The mother is an accessory to murder, and should be sterilized.

Euthanized!
 
SLM
+1
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

Certainly, there was negligence there, but that is a difficult line to draw. What is incredible is how much vetting people who want to adopt a child must go through compared to the level of incompetence that is acceptable before child protective services comes in.

On the flip side, I have heard stories where the child suffered sports related injuries but the school called child protective services anyways (or it was the ex spouse in some cases). Then you have some people invade your life insinuating that sending your child to bed without dessert because they did not clean their room is evidence of negligence. Don't even try to mention spanking to those people either...

I agree, this woman is a sad case. But I see child protective services is a sledgehammer, not a scalpel.

Oh, child protective services is a whole other topic altogether. Whether they're getting it right or wrong, they seem to always go overboard with it.

But had she sought medical attention for this child, it would have been reported I'm sure of it. At least the poor little boy would have had a fighting chance that way.

The article says broken bones that were untreated. I cannot believe that a toddler would not be in a lot of pain due to broken bones, how does a parent, even a parent who continually buys the what we now know to be B.S. stories about 'accidents' not seek aid for their child that is in pain? So negligence on the part of the mother at a minimum. I can understand that it may be difficult to prove in court but, were it my decision, I would have charged her and put her in front of a jury.

Quote: Originally Posted by IdRatherBeSkiingView Post

fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me.

I may have accepted the first 'excuse' but would have become suspicious on the next one. Actually, I would have been suspicious after the first one and kept my eyes and ears open.

Most people would have.

Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Why would you memorialize the results of abuse?

Because he's a sick bastard who releases his stress from being unemployed on a toddler?
 
#juan
+3
#11
[QUOTE=SLM;1664552]Oh, child protective services is a whole other topic altogether. Whether they're getting it right or wrong, they seem to always go overboard with it.

But had she sought medical attention for this child, it would have been reported I'm sure of it. At least the poor little boy would have had a fighting chance that way. [/UNQUOTE]

Agreed, but I don't believe a word of this a$$hole's story. Broken fingers, ribs, and internal injuries. I can't understand how this woman
can support his Bull-shi t unless she's part of it.
Last edited by #juan; Oct 27th, 2012 at 01:05 PM..
 
PoliticalNick
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

On the flip side, I have heard stories where the child suffered sports related injuries but the school called child protective services anyways (or it was the ex spouse in some cases). Then you have some people invade your life insinuating that sending your child to bed without dessert because they did not clean their room is evidence of negligence. Don't even try to mention spanking to those people either...

I agree, this woman is a sad case. But I see child protective services is a sledgehammer, not a scalpel.

I had an experience with CPS when my sons were young. Total BS. Neighbor called them in because I gave my oldest a swat on the *** in the yard. I wouldn't even let them in the house. I told them I spanked the boys when they needed it (which is not against the law no matter what anybody tells you). Then told them to f*ck-off and come back with an arrest warrant if they thought they had a case. Never saw them again.

If you know the law and your rights CPS is not as scary as they are made out to be.
 
JLM
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by PoliticalNickView Post

I had an experience with CPS when my sons were young. Total BS. Neighbor called them in because I gave my oldest a swat on the *** in the yard. I wouldn't even let them in the house. I told them I spanked the boys when they needed it (which is not against the law no matter what anybody tells you). Then told them to f*ck-off and come back with an arrest warrant if they thought they had a case. Never saw them again.

If you know the law and your rights CPS is not as scary as they are made out to be.

Good for you, Nick. We have a whole generation of brats who never got taken to the wood shed. Just so the bleeding hearts don't get in a lather, I'm not in favour of spanking all children, just the few who need it for serious infractions. (We've had enough debates on this issue)
 
PoliticalNick
+1
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Good for you, Nick. We have a whole generation of brats who never got taken to the wood shed. Just so the bleeding hearts don't get in a lather, I'm not in favour of spanking all children, just the few who need it for serious infractions. (We've had enough debates on this issue)

What the idiots at CPS and their civilian staff, as I call the busy-bodies, forget is there is a difference between spanking your child for doing wrong and abusing your child. These morons seem to think that corporal punishment for legitimate reasons equates to the same thing as the d*ck in the OP was doing.
 
FlowerPower
+1
#15
The title of Mom should not be given to this woman in the article.
 
damngrumpy
+2
#16
The wood shed argument always comes up. I don't believe in hitting a child in most cases.
Yes there are times when some extra correction is necessary but that should be rare.
I got maybe three spankings as a kid and gave out less than half a dozen as a parent.
One of the biggest problems is not the child its the parent. As adults we talk about the
consequences of doing something. The problem is all too often the parents do not follow
through with the supposed consequences and that is the message, oh not much will happen.
I always followed through and stuck to my guns. I got respect without becoming a willow tree.
 
PoliticalNick
+1
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpyView Post

The wood shed argument always comes up. I don't believe in hitting a child in most cases.
Yes there are times when some extra correction is necessary but that should be rare.
I got maybe three spankings as a kid and gave out less than half a dozen as a parent.
One of the biggest problems is not the child its the parent. As adults we talk about the
consequences of doing something. The problem is all too often the parents do not follow
through with the supposed consequences and that is the message, oh not much will happen.
I always followed through and stuck to my guns. I got respect without becoming a willow tree.

I was certainly not in a habit of spanking the boys. Probably had to do it 5 times combined between the 2 of them but when they were warned it was coming and they continued bad behavior I delivered. Bare butt and open hand and made sure it stung enough they would remember for a long time.

I never gave them the old 'gonna hurt me more than you' routine either. I find that to be quite lame.
 
CDNBear
+1
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

Because he's a sick bastard who releases his stress from being unemployed on a toddler?

If you have the wherewithal to concoct a cover story, you know you are doing wrong. Memorializing it with a photo seems out of place to me.

Quote: Originally Posted by PoliticalNickView Post

I had an experience with CPS when my sons were young. Total BS. Neighbor called them in because I gave my oldest a swat on the *** in the yard. I wouldn't even let them in the house. I told them I spanked the boys when they needed it (which is not against the law no matter what anybody tells you). Then told them to f*ck-off and come back with an arrest warrant if they thought they had a case. Never saw them again.

If you know the law and your rights CPS is not as scary as they are made out to be.

Given the fact that you admittedly feel violence is a normal and appropriate response to differing opinions, and the execution of ones job, it wouldn't and doesn't surprise me that their concerns were valid.
 
SLM
+1
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

If you have the wherewithal to concoct a cover story, you know you are doing wrong. Memorializing it with a photo seems out of place to me.

No kidding, that would be the 'sick bastard' part where he believes his own B.S. stories. My understanding of abusers is they actually don't believe they aren't doing anything wrong. The cover stories would not be about their shame per say but about satisfying the prying inquisitions of others who just don't "get it". The guy who's wife 'walks into a door' for example, to his (sick) mind he's justified in what he did but he knows no one else will "understand" that he had "no choice", so stories are made up to avoid having to deal with that. At least, that's the way I understand the thought process, if you can actually call it that.
 
Praxius
#20
"Fell down the stairs" seems to always be the fall back excuse.... If the kid was that injured from falling down the stairs, wouldn't the boyfriend also have a few injuries as well?

I might buy the sick/fall at the dinner table thing and could have been a careless situation that looks really bad, but it might not have.... The question that is left is, if it was from physical violence, what did the kid do at the dinner table to cause the boyfriend to inflict that level of damage, including the claim of vomit?

And the bruised shoulder could be horse play kids do, as I know I have had my fair share of injuries from situations like that....

But the nail in the coffin is the list of long term injuries noted, especially many untreated injuries.... Any parent with a brain would take their child to the hospital for such injuries so they would be treated.

And no two year old that I ever come across runs into that many unfortunate "accidents" and if they did and those accidents were as serious as stated in this report, then if it's not abuse, it's clear neglect and not keeping a better eye out for your damn kids.

Also, what 2 year old turns their head away from the table to puke? Most kids that age just puke straight forward because they don't know any better.... Maybe that was the reason why the boyfriend flew off the handle and flattened his face, cuz it was a mess he'd have to clean up and probably ruined his meal.

Slipped off his chair?

Wasn't he in a secured high chair at that age?

Or was it some rickety high chair that is easily unbalanced?

Or was he just not strapped in?

Or was he in a normal adult chair?

In any of those situations, it's still neglect.

And I have seen plenty of kids fall, even on their face. Unless they have a plain concrete floor, that level of damage would be highly suspicious and not very likely.

Sounds like a cover up by mommy because she's got kids, she's getting up in her age, and doesn't want to be left alone dealing with work and the kids by herself, while thinking she won't find another person to help her out, so she settled and now defending the guy.

And it doesn't sound like they're his biological children, thus her previous partner left (odd there's no mention of the real father or fathers of the children) and i doubt he has any connection with the kids and just sees them as money sucking burdens taking away his good time for drinking.... He's stuck with someone else's kids and doesn't know how to cope.

At first i thought, ok... Maybe this is just all a misunderstanding based on circumstances that can be portrayed in two different ways.... Thus since he lost his job and it's a man watching over the kids, any injury those kids had must be from him abusing them, thus a knee jerk reaction.... But their explanations don't add up and it's either abuse or neglect on their part.

Either way, both are guilty.
Last edited by Praxius; Oct 28th, 2012 at 06:17 AM..
 
CDNBear
+1
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

No kidding, that would be the 'sick bastard' part where he believes his own B.S. stories. My understanding of abusers is they actually don't believe they aren't doing anything wrong. The cover stories would not be about their shame per say but about satisfying the prying inquisitions of others who just don't "get it". The guy who's wife 'walks into a door' for example, to his (sick) mind he's justified in what he did but he knows no one else will "understand" that he had "no choice", so stories are made up to avoid having to deal with that. At least, that's the way I understand the thought process, if you can actually call it that.

I get that, but you rarely see the abuser keep evidence no?

I've known abusive parents. I know abusive parents. I see the results every other Thursday.

What I've never noticed, was self collected evidence.

Quote: Originally Posted by PraxiusView Post

"Fell down the stairs" seems to always be the fall back excuse.... If the kid was that injured from falling down the stairs, wouldn't the boyfriend also have a few injuries as well?

He may have fallen on the child.

Quote:

But the nail in the coffin is the list of long term injuries noted, especially many untreated injuries.... And parent with a brain would take their child to the hospital for such injuries so they would be treated.

If it wasn't for the extremely noticeable curve in our youngest boys arm, you wouldn't have been able to tell from his demeanor that it was broken.

Even the hospital staff were amazed at how calm and oblivious to his injury he was.

Quote:

And no two year old that I ever come across runs into that many unfortunate "accidents" and if they did and those accidents were as serious as stated in this report, then if it's not abuse, it's clear neglect and not keeping a better eye out for your damn kids.

Possibly. But I know grown men that seem to have a fresh injury some shape or form every week.
 
SLM
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

I get that, but you rarely see the abuser keep evidence no?

I've known abusive parents. I know abusive parents. I see the results every other Thursday.

What I've never noticed, was self collected evidence.

Yeah, I don't know. Who can understand the thinking of an effed up mind?


Quote:

If it wasn't for the extremely noticeable curve in our youngest boys arm, you wouldn't have been able to tell from his demeanor that it was broken.

Even the hospital staff were amazed at how calm and oblivious to his injury he was.

But you sought medical treatment, which is something this guy nor the mother seemed to do. And it's not one broken bone in this case but several, from what I read. So you could, conceivably miss one or possibly two (although I think it would be a real big stretch) injuries but several broken bones? Amongst all the rest of the bumps, bruises etc all over a three month period?

My son was a really rambunctious toddler, he sported some welts on his noggin at times from tearing through a room and bumping into things that were frightful to look at! But nothing even close to that kind of frequency.

(And when I say bumping I should say running head first into things! Why do little kids always run with their heads down? LOL. Good thing for him he had such a hard head. He's now fully grown, handsome and healthy and still has a hard head.)

Quote:

Possibly. But I know grown men that seem to have a fresh injury some shape or form every week.

Grown men are not toddlers though. Grown men should know better, toddlers don't. That's why you watch them as closely as you do.
 
CDNBear
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

Yeah, I don't know. Who can understand the thinking of an effed up mind?

Who knows. It could be simple case of neglect, or poor parenting, as apposed to abuse.

Quote:

But you sought medical treatment, which is something this guy nor the mother seemed to do. And it's not one broken bone in this case but several, from what I read. So you could, conceivably miss one or possibly two (although I think it would be a real big stretch) injuries but several broken bones? Amongst all the rest of the bumps, bruises etc all over a three month period?

We sought medical attention, because it was physically apparent something was wrong. If his arm didn't look like a hockey stick, his demeanor wouldn't have set off any bells.

I still bug SCB about it. She lost her sh!t when I bought them dirt bikes. They never hurt themselves once. She takes them skating, and baddabing, Kooter comes home with two pins in his arm.

Almost a full year after a car accident I was involved in, I pulled an almost three inch piece of the dash out of my lower leg.

Not all injuries are overwhelmingly obvious.

Quote:

My son was a really rambunctious toddler, he sported some welts on his noggin at times from tearing through a room and bumping into things that were frightful to look at! But nothing even close to that kind of frequency.

My youngest should be in the Guinness Book of Wold Records. It has always amazed me that he manages to injure himself doing such benign things. But while participating in higher risk activities like dirt biking, playing football, fishing or hunting, he never gets a scratch.

Quote:

Grown men are not toddlers though. Grown men should know better, toddlers don't. That's why you watch them as closely as you do.

I agree, but some people are accident prone.
 
PoliticalNick
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

I get that, but you rarely see the abuser keep evidence no?

I've known abusive parents. I know abusive parents. I see the results every other Thursday.

What I've never noticed, was self collected evidence.

He may have fallen on the child.

If it wasn't for the extremely noticeable curve in our youngest boys arm, you wouldn't have been able to tell from his demeanor that it was broken.

Even the hospital staff were amazed at how calm and oblivious to his injury he was.

Possibly. But I know grown men that seem to have a fresh injury some shape or form every week.

Defending the man CDNBoor? Says a lot about your character...or lack thereof!

Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Who knows. It could be simple case of neglect, or poor parenting, as apposed to abuse.

Defending an abuser again? Makes me wonder if it really was a skating accident, especially after this comment...
Quote:

My youngest should be in the Guinness Book of Wold Records. It has always amazed me that he manages to injure himself doing such benign things. But while participating in higher risk activities like dirt biking, playing football, fishing or hunting, he never gets a scratch.

Quote:

Almost a full year after a car accident I was involved in, I pulled an almost three inch piece of the dash out of my lower leg.

Now if you could get the piece out of your brain you might actually have a rational thought.

Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

Yeah, I don't know. Who can understand the thinking of an effed up mind?

And it is obviously effed up!

Quote:

My son was a really rambunctious toddler, he sported some welts on his noggin at times from tearing through a room and bumping into things that were frightful to look at! But nothing even close to that kind of frequency.

(And when I say bumping I should say running head first into things! Why do little kids always run with their heads down? LOL. Good thing for him he had such a hard head. He's now fully grown, handsome and healthy and still has a hard head.)

There is reasoning behind the phrase "bouncing baby boy"
 
CDNBear
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by PoliticalNickView Post

Defending the man CDNBoor? Says a lot about your character...or lack thereof!

Defending an abuser again? Makes me wonder if it really was a skating accident, especially after this comment...

Now if you could get the piece out of your brain you might actually have a rational thought.

That makes three of you that need to learn how to read.

Geezus, you managed to go from not very bright to stupid in one post, lol.
 
SLM
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Who knows. It could be simple case of neglect, or poor parenting, as apposed to abuse.

Neglect can be abuse, the younger the child the bigger the onus on the parent, or adult in charge of them, to prevent illness or injury. And again I'm still stuck on the time frame of three months here.

Quote:

We sought medical attention, because it was physically apparent something was wrong. If his arm didn't look like a hockey stick, his demeanor wouldn't have set off any bells.

Well of course you sought medical attention. Which I'm sure you would have done as well if you'd come home to a report that the child had fallen down the stairs, at least you would have checked on them, not left them alone because they were sleeping.

Quote:

I still bug SCB about it. She lost her sh!t when I bought them dirt bikes. They never hurt themselves once. She takes them skating, and baddabing, Kooter comes home with two pins in his arm.

I'm sure she takes that well, lol.

Quote:

My youngest should be in the Guinness Book of Wold Records. It has always amazed me that he manages to injure himself doing such benign things. But while participating in higher risk activities like dirt biking, playing football, fishing or hunting, he never gets a scratch.

I agree, but some people are accident prone.

I've known kids like that sure, and yes some people are accident prone. But they don't all die at the age of two.

Quote: Originally Posted by PoliticalNickView Post

Defending the man CDNBoor? Says a lot about your character...or lack thereof!


Defending an abuser again? Makes me wonder if it really was a skating accident, especially after this comment...

Okay, first of all he's not defending the guy and the implication you are making about him and his wife is really freaking out of line. I can tell you that these are not abusive people and I'm really insulted and offended on their behalf. To the point where I'm considering reporting the post. It is completely speculative, totally insulting and far, far beyond the line of what is tasteful and tactful. You should apologize.


Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

That makes three of you that need to learn how to read.

I better not be one of the three because I know damn well you were not defending the guy. I know exactly what you were saying, don't necessarily agree with all of it but I understand it completely.
 
CDNBear
+1
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

Neglect can be abuse...

No argument.

Quote:

Well of course you sought medical attention. Which I'm sure you would have done as well if you'd come home to a report that the child had fallen down the stairs, at least you would have checked on them, not left them alone because they were sleeping.

Well no, but I can't help but wonder how we would have reacted if the break wasn't noticeable.

Quote:

I'm sure she takes that well, lol.

I usually get told, lol.

Quote:

I've known kids like that sure, and yes some people are accident prone. But they don't all die at the age of two.

No, and given the level of accidents some of them have, I find that surprising.

Quote:

Okay, first of all he's not defending the guy and the implication you are making about him and his wife is really freaking out of line.

You'll have to excuse him, he isn't bright at all, for starters. And in his defence, I did insinuate his posts do indicate someone that is prone to using violence to solve disagreements and that would be a legitimate reason for CAS to visit him. I can only imagine how loud he had to be for the neighbours to hear him "spanking" his kid, that they felt compelled to call CAS.

So I stand by that observation.

Quote:

I can tell you that these are not abusive people and I'm really insulted and offended on their behalf. To the point where I'm considering reporting the post. It is completely speculative, totally insulting and far, far beyond the line of what is tasteful and tactful.

Nah, it's what he does. Well that and cry about other people trolling, lol.

Quote:

You should apologize.

It would be as empty as his head.

Quote:

I better not be one of the three because I know damn well you were not defending the guy.

Oh hell no. That was pete, EAO and pd here.

None of which comes as any great surprise.

Quote:

I know exactly what you were saying, don't necessarily agree with all of it but I understand it completely.

I know you do, but you aren't daft like pd.

Not that defending him would be abhorrent either. Having adequate defence is a crucial part of due process. Something that pd obviously doesn't believe in. I blame his underdeveloped Neanderthal intellect, "Political **** smash, it made me angry".
 
SLM
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

No argument.

Well no, but I can't help but wonder how we would have reacted if the break wasn't noticeable.

One other thing I noticed when rereading the article was the breaks included broken ribs, one of the most painful of all breaks from what I've been told. Again, I'm not looking at forensic evidence and yeah I'm relying a hell of a lot on my instincts here, but the deck of at least circumstantial evidence is mounting against him as far as I'm concerned. Where there is smoke there is often fire.

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I usually get told, lol.

Yeah that sounds about right.Lol


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You'll have to excuse him, he isn't bright at all, for starters. And in his defence, I did insinuate his posts do indicate someone that is prone to using violence to solve disagreements and that would be a legitimate reason for CAS to visit him. I can only imagine how loud he had to be for the neighbours to hear him "spanking" his kid, that they felt compelled to call CAS.

So I stand by that observation.

Ok, so first of all I was unaware of what you had insinuated, I was just reacting to what I saw before me, which to me, breached a line. If this has been a back and forth precedence already set, I'll back off that. I would be hugely insulted if someone had said that to or about me, incensed actually, and that was how and why I reacted the way I did.

I still think bringing family into things is tasteless and tactless; you and I have discussed people doing that before. But since you launched the opening shot on this one, it's a *** for tat thing so again, I'll back off and leave it entirely between you a Nick.

And I know nothing really offends you that gets said here but I personally thought the implication against SCB warranted something being said.

I do recall too the CAS post he made and, to my recollection, the spanking occurred in the back yard (sort of a one swat deal I think) that the neighbour saw.

And lastly, I doubt there will be any notice or credit given for actually defending the the post of the person offending you. But I actually think that's one of your most enduring charms: honesty.

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Oh hell no. That was pete, EAO and pd here.

I didn't think so but I didn't feel like counting posts, lol.

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Not that defending him would be abhorrent either. Having adequate defence is a crucial part of due process.

As an intellectual exercise I can see the appeal and the challenge, as a part of due process I agree that it's crucial. But this is about a young child dying far, far too young. Give him his defence and make it a good one, but I will never accept this guy, nor this woman either, as innocent whether there was active abuse or passive neglect, they are in the wrong in my eyes.
 
CDNBear
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

One other thing I noticed when rereading the article was the breaks included broken ribs, one of the most painful of all breaks from what I've been told. Again, I'm not looking at forensic evidence and yeah I'm relying a hell of a lot on my instincts here, but the deck of at least circumstantial evidence is mounting against him as far as I'm concerned. Where there is smoke there is often fire.

True, and either or, as you mentioned neglect is abuse.

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Ok, so first of all I was unaware of what you had insinuated, I was just reacting to what I saw before me, which to me, breached a line. If this has been a back and forth precedence already set, I'll back off that. I would be hugely insulted if someone had said that to or about me, incensed actually, and that was how and why I reacted the way I did.

I still think bringing family into things is tasteless and tactless; you and I have discussed people doing that before. But since you launched the opening shot on this one, it's a *** for tat thing so again, I'll back off and leave it entirely between you a Nick.

It wasn't so much a back and forth as much as it was an observation, based on his own posts. In which he seems to go right to violently reacting to things he doesn't agree with or understand.

That and his story about the neighbours calling CAS, just seemed odd.

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And I know nothing really offends you that gets said here but I personally thought the implication against SCB warranted something being said.

It isn't the first time he's taken unwarranted, unprovoked shots at SCB. So you can still think he's a **** for that.

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And lastly, I doubt there will be any notice or credit given for actually defending the the post of the person offending you. But I actually think that's one of your most enduring charms: honesty.

Brutally even.

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As an intellectual exercise I can see the appeal and the challenge, as a part of due process I agree that it's crucial. But this is about a young child dying far, far too young. Give him his defence and make it a good one, but I will never accept this guy, nor this woman either, as innocent whether there was active abuse or passive neglect, they are in the wrong in my eyes.

I've made no distinction either way, as you already know. But as you pointed out, neglect is abuse, so I agree wholeheartedly.
 
PoliticalNick
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

Okay, first of all he's not defending the guy and the implication you are making about him and his wife is really freaking out of line.

I do not know his wife and meant no implication or insinuation about her. CNDBozo I only know from CanCon and the way he treats people on here so I feel no remorse or regret at giving it right back at him.

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I can tell you that these are not abusive people and I'm really insulted and offended on their behalf.

I can only tell you that on CanCon he IS abusive and evasive and not somebody who has earned any respect from me in any way.

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To the point where I'm considering reporting the post.

Report away. The mods are well aware of the ongoing flame-war between us so I doubt they will do much. Besides which he accused me of abusing my kids first.
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It is completely speculative, totally insulting and far, far beyond the line of what is tasteful and tactful.

So are all of the things he posts about me.

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You should apologize.

I will apologize to you if you didn't know the whole story and were offended, but not to him.
 

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