Top dentists make $1 million on reserves


dumpthemonarchy
#1
This seems a little steep. These dentists must get paid as soon as they get up, get on the plane, to the time they get off the plane and go to bed. This seems a little pricey. A better system of dental care for aboriginals is required. There is one, it's called being a Canadian. I pay for all my dental costs. I could dig being on the aboriginal dental plan. Where do I make my appointment? I don't know why dental plans aren't part of medical plans. Unfair.

From the article:

" Health Canada spent $194 million on dental services in 2009-10, the most recent year for which it has issued an annual report, up more than nine per cent. Still, the report notes that many First Nations people go without dental care at all, as just 36 per cent of those eligible had any kind of dental appointment in 2009-10. "



Top dentists gross $1M a year on First Nations reserves



Top dentists gross $1M a year on First Nations reserves







By Tom Blackwell, Postmedia News February 4, 2012






The average full-time dentist in Canada makes $142,000 a year, according to Statistics Canada.

Photograph by: Bryan Schlosser , Leader-Post files




Treating impoverished First Nations patients is a surprisingly lucrative enterprise for the country's dentists, with the six highest-billing practitioners receiving more than $1 million a year from Health Canada, according to government figures the National Post obtained.

Subtracting the 60 per cent of dental billings typically spent on staff salaries and other overhead, the top 25 billers would earn personal income from work on aboriginal patients of about $200,000 to $640,000 a year, the Health Canada statistics suggest. The average full-time dentist in Canada makes $142,000 a year, according to Statistics Canada.


The figures, released under the Access to Information Act, come as the cost of dental care for aboriginals who suffer from sky-high rates of dental decay climbs swiftly, with spending on the program jumping more than nine per cent per capita in 2009-10.

The department says the steep billings are explained at least partly by the fact that several of the dentists have multiple clinics on different reserves and provide specialized services, though one on the list is under investigation for possible irregularities.

Representatives from the Assembly of First Nations and aboriginal health groups were not available for comment.


A Winnipeg-based expert says the numbers may appear lofty but are not out of line, especially since a limited number of dentists serve the First Nations market, often providing urgent or emergency care.


"These practitioners may be among the few in an area who are willing to go to these (remote) communities," said Robert Schroth, a dentist and researcher with the Manitoba Institute for Child Health. "They are the only show in town, and there may be few competitors."


Schroth was co-author of a Canadian Peadiatric Society report last year that highlighted the extent of poor dental health among aboriginals, suggesting that more than nine in 10 young children have cavities in their baby teeth, some with so many they require surgery under a general anesthetic.


Dr. Robert MacGregor, president of the Canadian Dental Association, said it is hard to judge the billing figures, because there are a lot of unknowns. But those dentists who serve First Nations communities tend to work hard, he said.


"We do know the disease rate is higher in the aboriginal population, so there's more work to be done," he said. "If a person is working 12-hour days, which is not uncommon, as I understand, in some of these clinics . . . that obviously makes an impact on your income."

Health Canada pays for a number of health services for aboriginal people under the Non-insured Health Benefits (NIHB) program, including dental care, prescription drugs and eye care.


All of those on the list of the 25 highest-revenue dentists billed at least $500,000, with the top six ranging from $1.1 million to $1.6 million. The identity and location of the practitioners were removed by the department for privacy reasons.


Seven of the dentists on the list have multiple clinics on different reserves, each with their own support or technical staff, and two of the dentists are specialists, whose fees tend to be higher, said Oliva Caron, a spokeswoman for Health Canada, in an email response to questions.


The dentists' staff can include dental "therapists," who are allowed to perform limited procedures, such as minor fillings. High billing can also result from practitioners visiting remote communities, said Caron.


At the same time, the NIHB program has a "rigorous" audit system for the 14,000 dental practitioners who do work for the department, with particular focus on those claiming large sums, she said. "Every provider on this list of top-25 providers has been audited by the program, and many have been audited multiple times," said the official.


Any inappropriate billings must be repaid, repeat offenders are de-listed and evidence of fraud is turned over to police and regulatory colleges, she said.


Health Canada spent $194 million on dental services in 2009-10, the most recent year for which it has issued an annual report, up more than nine per cent. Still, the report notes that many First Nations people go without dental care at all, as just 36 per cent of those eligible had any kind of dental appointment in 2009-10.






 
TenPenny
#2
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

This seems a little steep. These dentists must get paid as soon as they get up, get on the plane, to the time they get off the plane and go to bed. This seems a little pricey.

Are you saying that dentists who do work on the reserves are not paid fee-for-service?
 
dumpthemonarchy
+2
#3  Top Rated Post
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

Are you saying that dentists who do work on the reserves are not paid fee-for-service?

Likely they are as the dental college/association/union ensures this. According to the article, the fed govt pays the whole shot. I'm not keen on this system because it does not benefit me despite my taxes that pay for it. The system I have is that I pay for the dental services I need, no govt assistance here. This is unfair and unequal.
 
TenPenny
+1 / -1
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

Likely they are as the dental college/association/union ensures this. According to the article, the fed govt pays the whole shot. I'm not keen on this system because it does not benefit me despite my taxes that pay for it. The system I have is that I pay for the dental services I need, no govt assistance here. This is unfair and unequal.

You're a whiny little man, aren't you?
 
dumpthemonarchy
+1
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

You're a whiny little man, aren't you?

I would just like equal treatment thanks. I'm not sure why some people get free services and I don't. Could you explain, please.Try not to get into the long complicated history of the situation. I tire of listening to apologists of the system who get paid good money to justify inequality. They're such geniuses, with my money too.
 
TenPenny
-1
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

I would just like equal treatment thanks. I'm not sure why some people get free services and I don't. Could you explain, please.

Because they are aboriginals, we signed treaties with them.

I'm pretty sure the 'treatment' you get is more than equal, if you bothered to figure it out.
 
dumpthemonarchy
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

Because they are aboriginals, we signed treaties with them.

I'm pretty sure the 'treatment' you get is more than equal, if you bothered to figure it out.

Yes, I live much better than the average aboriginal, despite the fed govt giving them over $10 billion per year, which is about $10,000 per head for one million of them. Not including dental, social and corrections services which are also free. The latter three services they get far too much of. They get bad treatment here, and treaties don't work any more.

Treaties were signed by the British and aboriginals really lived as aboriginals prior to the 19th and 20th centuries. And the British needed them to fend off American, French and Spanish power.They didn't have cars or the internet then. Time to update things and officially integrate them and improve their living standards and make them equal Canadians.
 
damngrumpy
#8
What would we do without the anti native statement of the day? My answer to you
is simple SO What?
 
dumpthemonarchy
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpyView Post

What would we do without the anti native statement of the day? My answer to you
is simple SO What?

To over $10 billion, per year! You shrug. Brilliant response. You fail.

Many many many reserves like Attawaspiskat are going to go one forever until someone complains, complains, complains and tries to get something changed for the better. Business as usual is producing quite a lot of misery. Ho hum they say.
 
taxslave
+1
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

To over $10 billion, per year! You shrug. Brilliant response. You fail.

Many many many reserves like Attawaspiskat are going to go one forever until someone complains, complains, complains and tries to get something changed for the better. Business as usual is producing quite a lot of misery. Ho hum they say.

Don't get your knickers in a knot little man about things you don't understand.
That is GROSS pay. Poor journalism. Out of that would come airfares, office expense, materials, office help and on & on.

Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

Yes, I live much better than the average aboriginal, despite the fed govt giving them over $10 billion per year, which is about $10,000 per head for one million of them. Not including dental, social and corrections services which are also free. The latter three services they get far too much of. They get bad treatment here, and treaties don't work any more.

Treaties were signed by the British and aboriginals really lived as aboriginals prior to the 19th and 20th centuries. And the British needed them to fend off American, French and Spanish power.They didn't have cars or the internet then. Time to update things and officially integrate them and improve their living standards and make them equal Canadians.

The cost to taxpayers is $10bil. How much of that do the white bureaucrats in Ottawa eat up?
 
dumpthemonarchy
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

Don't get your knickers in a knot little man about things you don't understand.
That is GROSS pay. Poor journalism. Out of that would come airfares, office expense, materials, office help and on & on.

The cost to taxpayers is $10bil. How much of that do the white bureaucrats in Ottawa eat up?

One million is 7x more than the average dentist makes. So complicated. Let's derail this federal gravy train. Don't understand, funny. It may be rocket science to some people, but it's not to me because it's actually not.

I'm glad you understand that the well educated lawyer bureaucrats eat most of the $10 B yearly, and eat too well. I'd be willing to fire them all and give out $10,000 per aboriginal for a few years. Permanent welfare never works as entitlement and guilt kick in that hinder progress and development. You can't untimately do well in the modern world unless you earn money.
 
Ron in Regina
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

One million is 7x more than the average dentist makes. So complicated. Let's derail this federal gravy train. Don't understand, funny. It may be rocket science to some people, but it's not to me because it's actually not.


You would go to the average dentist if you needed dental work. The dentist
wouldn't pack up and fly several hundred miles to wherever you are, and
pay for his own accomodations & meals and such out'a pocket to do so,
and then have to bill out to a Gov't entity and have to wait for payment.

I'm sure that's factored into what is being billed out.
 
taxslave
+1
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

One million is 7x more than the average dentist makes. So complicated. Let's derail this federal gravy train. Don't understand, funny. It may be rocket science to some people, but it's not to me because it's actually not.

I'm glad you understand that the well educated lawyer bureaucrats eat most of the $10 B yearly, and eat too well. I'd be willing to fire them all and give out $10,000 per aboriginal for a few years. Permanent welfare never works as entitlement and guilt kick in that hinder progress and development. You can't untimately do well in the modern world unless you earn money.

Lots of years I grossed over 5 million logging and still lost money. Gross pay is not a relevant number without a list of expenses. It is not necessarily a gravy train.
The average dentist does not run an office. He may rent a chair in an office but not have many expenses. A dentist I know has 12 chairs in his office and about 20 staff and over a million in equipment. Those chairs have to be full most of the day to make it pay. He also told me that the highest bankruptcy group in Canada is the one chair dental office because there is so much expensive equipment needed to operate that one chair can not cover the costs.
 
dumpthemonarchy
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in ReginaView Post

You would go to the average dentist if you needed dental work. The dentist
wouldn't pack up and fly several hundred miles to wherever you are, and
pay for his own accomodations & meals and such out'a pocket to do so,
and then have to bill out to a Gov't entity and have to wait for payment.

I'm sure that's factored into what is being billed out.

But I have to spend my time and money to see my dentist.

Running a dentists office is a biz, so they hire managers. But making 7x more than the norm requires more investigation by the media on this system.
Last edited by dumpthemonarchy; Feb 19th, 2012 at 11:57 PM..
 
damngrumpy
#15
Yes you do have to pay for your own ride, the fact is there is no regular dentist in that
region of the country and therefore the dentist is going to charge his expenses to the
department. The bills are justified for the reasons expressed above and therefore as
I said who cares, the money is accounted for.
Everyday I see articles about lets get the natives and every time people respond with
facts that put it into perspective and unfortunately for you, you lose. the same would
be charged to any group in the north that required dental care I am sure.
What about all those people who work in the north I guess native or not they should not
be given some consideration for the work environment after all you have to pay for your
ride to work right? This is becoming a silly conversation as nothing is a miss here the
costs justify the service.
 
dumpthemonarchy
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpyView Post

Yes you do have to pay for your own ride, the fact is there is no regular dentist in that
region of the country and therefore the dentist is going to charge his expenses to the
department. The bills are justified for the reasons expressed above and therefore as
I said who cares, the money is accounted for.
Everyday I see articles about lets get the natives and every time people respond with
facts that put it into perspective and unfortunately for you, you lose. the same would
be charged to any group in the north that required dental care I am sure.
What about all those people who work in the north I guess native or not they should not
be given some consideration for the work environment after all you have to pay for your
ride to work right? This is becoming a silly conversation as nothing is a miss here the
costs justify the service.

I wouldn't mind a look at some at these expense sheets. Like, does do the dentists own the plane? Or is it contracted out? Dentists, as far as I understand, do dental work, when they're not working pulling teeth or something, they shouldn't get paid. Are they on salary or get paid by the job? Are they paid by the hour? I think we need more info here. Why fed govt dentists make 7x more than the national average is not really clear to me. Your putting "perspective" is just to go along. You don't know any more than me.

I think chiefs themselves and the fed govt have done a fine job in "lets get the natives". Have you ever heard of Attawaspisak? I would never live in such shacks. I don't think they should either. We've got third world politics operating here, and they shouldn't.
 
TenPenny
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

Yes, I live much better than the average aboriginal, despite the fed govt giving them over $10 billion per year, which is about $10,000 per head for one million of them.

So tell me, what is your problem? You don't like the fact that you live better?

Sounds like you have an issue between the ears.
 
CDNBear
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

I'm not sure why some people get free services and I don't. Could you explain, please.

Because of collective bargaining. Maybe you should spread some of your anger around to the unions too.

Quote:

I tire of listening to apologists of the system who get paid good money to justify inequality. They're such geniuses, with my money too.

Ya, we're all tired of union apologists too.

Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

I don't know why dental plans aren't part of medical plans. Unfair.

My dental plan is tied to my medical plan.

I see you'll soon be getting a company paid plan, that's unfair, since I have to pay for my own.
 
Walter
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

Lots of years I grossed over 5 million logging and still lost money.

You had a good accountant.
 
dumpthemonarchy
#20
Many good socialists go into govt so they can be Santa Claus, it can be okay. I remember an instructor at a community college in BC telling us in a class that when the college opened in the late 1960s, the union asked for the store and school admin gave it to them. Great pay and benefits in those days. Now it has gone too far the other way for many, especially in the private sector. The fed govt wishes to continue this tradition, which I agree with to a point.

I can see paying a premium for dentists to work up north or in remote areas, that is an issue for doctors across the country, but 7x more for dentists is a bit steep. For a dentist to make $1 million a year means he earns $500 an hour, 8 hours a day, 21 days a month, for 11 months.
 
CDNBear
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

Many good socialists go into govt so they can be Santa Claus, it can be okay. I remember an instructor at a community college in BC telling us in a class that when the college opened in the late 1960s, the union asked for the store and school admin gave it to them. Great pay and benefits in those days. Now it has gone too far the other way for many, especially in the private sector. The fed govt wishes to continue this tradition, which I agree with to a point.

I can see paying a premium for dentists to work up north or in remote areas, that is an issue for doctors across the country, but 7x more for dentists is a bit steep. For a dentist to make $1 million a year means he earns $500 an hour, 8 hours a day, 21 days a month, for 11 months.

You didn't read your own OP?
 
TenPenny
#22
In most offices, the dentist bills for all the work done by him, his assistants, and the hygienists, and any denturists working in the clinic.

dumpthemonarchy is assuming that the dentist is a single person working alone, which would be somewhat surprising. Perhaps it's true; do you have any evidence that it is the case?
 
dumpthemonarchy
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

In most offices, the dentist bills for all the work done by him, his assistants, and the hygienists, and any denturists working in the clinic.

dumpthemonarchy is assuming that the dentist is a single person working alone, which would be somewhat surprising. Perhaps it's true; do you have any evidence that it is the case?

The article talks about mainly dentists, and the supporting infrastructure, which may actually be relevant. But we need to see more info here.

Dentists have always been called better businessmen than doctors, and better golfers.
 
Ron in Regina
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

The article talks about mainly dentists, and the supporting infrastructure, which may actually be relevant. But we need to see more info here.

Dentists have always been called better businessmen than doctors, and better golfers.


Sort of unrelated, but I know someone (not a Dentist) who does work on
many northern reserves and remote communities, on a contract basis,
for the Federal Gov't.

He pays (out of pocket, up front) all of his expenses for travel and
accomodations and so on and so forth, and then bills out and waits for
cash to come back from the Gov't for his pay. I'm sure his billing reflects
not only his expenses and his pay (for his expertise, & willingness to do
the job and put up with the funding structure), but the fact that he has to
put out the cash for everything up front, & wait to be paid after the fact.

I'm assuming that Dentists flying to these remote places may be facing
the same or similiar realities, and their billing reflects this. I'm also
assuming that it would be easier to stay at home and run their practices,
avoiding the whole travel & wait for $$$ from the gov't eventually thing, so
to attract someone to bother putting up with that hastle, we see larger pay
than would otherwise be seen to just do a job and go home for supper
everynight to their family and their own beds.
 
Cannuck
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in ReginaView Post

Sort of unrelated, but I know someone (not a Dentist) who does work on
many northern reserves and remote communities, on a contract basis,
for the Federal Gov't.

He pays (out of pocket, up front) all of his expenses for travel and
accomodations and so on and so forth, and then bills out and waits for
cash to come back from the Gov't for his pay. I'm sure his billing reflects
not only his expenses and his pay (for his expertise, & willingness to do
the job and put up with the funding structure), but the fact that he has to
put out the cash for everything up front, & wait to be paid after the fact.

I'm assuming that Dentists flying to these remote places may be facing
the same or similiar realities, and their billing reflects this. I'm also
assuming that it would be easier to stay at home and run their practices,
avoiding the whole travel & wait for $$$ from the gov't eventually thing, so
to attract someone to bother putting up with that hastle, we see larger pay
than would otherwise be seen to just do a job and go home for supper
everynight to their family and their own beds.

I used to do a lot of contract work up north back in the eighties. We billed out at $1000 per day. That wasn't my take home (unfortunately).
 
Ron in Regina
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

I used to do a lot of contract work up north back in the eighties. We billed out at $1000 per day. That wasn't my take home (unfortunately).


The Guy I'm thinking about lives well, but is usually waiting on $20,000 to
$30,000 in out of pocket expences and pay to show up from the Fed's....
and this is ongoing on a month to month basis as I understand it. His
billing would reflect this.
 
TenPenny
+1
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

The article talks about mainly dentists, and the supporting infrastructure, which may actually be relevant. But we need to see more info here.

Dentists have always been called better businessmen than doctors, and better golfers.

That's because dentists operate as a business, doctors are treated as glorified public servants, and folks complain if the office is closed, and expect everything for nothing from doctors.

We need to see more info here, although it doesn't seem to stop some people (read: you) from making bizarre conclusions, and then whining because your mommy gave you 1/2 teaspoon less milk than someone else got, and his cookie had more chocolate chips on it, and your pillow wasn't as soft, and you really need a nap.
 
petros
#28
The lost children: Northern Sask. kids often in need of dental care
 
Cannuck
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in ReginaView Post

The Guy I'm thinking about lives well, but is usually waiting on $20,000 to
$30,000 in out of pocket expences and pay to show up from the Fed's....
and this is ongoing on a month to month basis as I understand it. His
billing would reflect this.

We did OK with the oil patch but we also did business with aboriginal communities and the federal government. The Feds were brutal when it came to paying the bills. Some of the aboriginal groups were good and some were so bad we decided to work through Indian Affairs rather than deal directly. As slow as the feds were, we at least knew we would eventually get paid. In any event, there was a significant amount of money spent by the company up front. It wasn't quite the money tree some folks think.
 
dumpthemonarchy
#30
The secondary issue here is all the bureaucratic details of payment. The primary point is that aboriginals are getting this service for free. Dental service was not mentioned in any treaty made in earlier centuries. Aboriginals have to get dental services because they would be even more unhealthy than they already are, and this patchwork cannot work as well as the dental service most Canadians get. Like many services provided by the fed govt, it is too expensive and lousy. Centralised planning here misses most aboriginals.
 

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