Fighting Has No Place in Hockey


talloola
#31
Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

People have got to watch that video.

As a former amateur boxer (my dad was a club fighter or semi-pro), I can attest to the unpleasant nature of a good hit like that. But at least in boxing you are fighting someone your size, he is directly in front of you, you anticipate the punch and can minimize it by ducking or moving away from it, or use your arms/hands to deflect much of it. In hockey your arms are down and holding a stick, you cannot brace yourself, often you are hit by a much bigger man, and just as often you cannot anticipate or deflect it in any way. This fascinating video proves all that.

Hockey has got to do away with needless violence before more damage is done. There simply is no other choice.

I can't get that video to come in.

1) the NHL is doing a lot to do away with headshots/while bodychecking. I think they have made good
progress on this matter, but these things don't happen overnight, but I have seen much improvement
in the last few months, since shanahan has come in to enforce the head shot rule, he is doing a
good job.

2) the hockey fight is not someone being punched while they have their stick in their hand, and if the
video showed that type of a fight, then it has shown a rare fight.
The players drop their gloves, face each other and fight.

you know, it really doesn't matter if you or joe or ken or the guy across the street don't like
the way hockey is played, then don't be part of the watching of the game, watch something you do
like.

I hate bull fighting, and would never watch it, I think it is cruel and ignorant, but thats
what they do, I have to make sure I don't watch it.

I find downhill skiing very stressful, it is very dangerous.
(do you want it banned because of the death that just happened)


I watch the sateboarders learning many tricks, shown on tv, very dangerous, they will be the
best customers of the physio people for years to come.

Boxing is ridiculous, how many older boxers are walking around with half a brain today, just
ask mohammid ali, but he would probably to it all over again if he could go back in time.

I think car racing is insane.

The blind side punch to the head (eg. bertuzzi to steve moore) is a rare sight in the game.
Also the deliberate high stick to the head is rare, but playing a game with a
stick will bring 'non deliberate' hits to the head with the stick, and that
can't be helped, its just the way it is, far too fast to never happen.

the worst accidents happen from the puck, or a skate cut, eg. taylor hall
just over a week ago, freak accident, and a skate cut his forhead.

All of the above choose to do what they do, who am I to enforce and push my opinion
onto them.
Last edited by talloola; Jan 28th, 2012 at 12:29 AM..
 
damngrumpy
#32
I remember the bad old days in the early and mid seventies. The junior leagues banned it
they also banned using product sponsorships in their names etc. We all know how that
turned out. First the money for sponsorship and transportation suffered in many areas and
the sticks came up with spearing being the worst. In no time the fans began to drop off.
In the end, fighting returned and the sponsorship names now include the names of the arenas
and even in small towns. Also the checks became more dangerous.
In the end they backed off and the games traditions were restored. As it is the game has
become so wimpy that I rarely watch it anymore, except for the odd Montreal game.
They keep hounding away at hockey like they do smoking and no I am not a smoker.
Leave things alone, for nearly a hundred years the game was just fine until the sophisticated
folks decided there was too much violence. Like I say, hockey is not hockey anymore and
I for one have begun to drift away from the game.
 
talloola
+1
#33
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpyView Post

I remember the bad old days in the early and mid seventies. The junior leagues banned it
they also banned using product sponsorships in their names etc. We all know how that
turned out. First the money for sponsorship and transportation suffered in many areas and
the sticks came up with spearing being the worst. In no time the fans began to drop off.
In the end, fighting returned and the sponsorship names now include the names of the arenas
and even in small towns. Also the checks became more dangerous.
In the end they backed off and the games traditions were restored. As it is the game has
become so wimpy that I rarely watch it anymore, except for the odd Montreal game.
They keep hounding away at hockey like they do smoking and no I am not a smoker.
Leave things alone, for nearly a hundred years the game was just fine until the sophisticated
folks decided there was too much violence. Like I say, hockey is not hockey anymore and
I for one have begun to drift away from the game.

years ago the game was a joke, no more classy than roller derby. some class must be in the game.

the game now has more speed, bigger players, and harder bodychecking than ever before, (not because
the players are meaner, because they are faster and bigger, hence the hits are harder)

the players now a true athletes, no more sitting around after the games drinking beer andepartying all night.

they have better trainers, dieticians, sleep doctors, real doctors, better coaches, better management,
better equipment, better skates, much more competetive between players trying to make teams.
At the amateur/junior levels and even younger, they prepare themselves much better than ever
before, clinics all summer, power skating, hockey schools, fitness training, there is no
such thing in the junior world as taking the summer off, as they might fall behind someone else
who is training all summer. It is a very serious road to the NHL, and it was never like that
before.

The goons and poor skaters never make the team any more, a tough guy must be able to play
the game, or he won't make anybodys team.

Common sense is making sure the game becomes safer because of the knowledge of concussions, and
that is being done, but by no means is the game softer, it is tougher now than it has ever
been, (without bench clearing brawls and spearing and stick swinging to injure.)

when one listens to the old players talk about their games, THEY are the first ones to explain
how much better the players are today, and many many of them know they would never make the team
now, whereas they did 30 or 40 years ago.
 
damngrumpy
#34
They have made it a politically correct sport to the point where its not worth watching but
then we will never agree on that will we
 
wulfie68
+1 / -1
#35
First off, anyone declaring a debate is "case closed" because they say so is an idiot. Sorry Gopher, but just because you want it to be, doesn't make it so: you can make your case, and feel secure in your logic but that doesn't mean you fairly weighed/represented all sides of an issue and speak for all the stakeholders.

I agree that link to concussions is something to take into account but really, more NHL concussions are caused by headshots from checks ("clean" or otherwise) than fights. I also think we don't want to go back to the days when rivalrys were defined by enforcer bouts (that often did seem more staged than something that evolved from the play) like Probert vs Domi vs Kocur or Semenko vs Otto.

Fact: fans still love fights. Fans in most venues are on their feet and cheering almost as loud for a good scrap as they are for a home team goal. Part of the thrill in watching collision sports like hockey and football is seeing how much the guys can take and still maintain a semblance of control. Its the same type of thing that draws people to other fighting sports, be it UFC, boxing or whatever. Most of us don't need to see a fight when we watch a game, but we don't see it as a huge negative.

Fact: as much bodily contact as there is in high level hockey, and the fact that these guys are often playing to support their families mean that the tension/emotion level is very high amongst players. Add in something they see as dangerous to them/their friends and something they perceive as a threat to their livelihood and things will boil over at times. Todd Bertuzzi, with his infamous incident is a case in point: when he went after Moore, he was trying to avenge a wrong done to his friend and the best player on his team. we can criticize him for his decision making process, but the motivational factors are something most of us can identify with: if someone threatens my ability to look after my wife and son, I get extremely angry too.

Fact: when the fighting has declined in the past (like in the 90s) the stick swinging incidents and other cheap shots rose. Many of us remember McSorely on Brashear and there were other ugly incidents in that era too. Low bridge hits by guys like Bryan Marchement and the Samuelsson brothers were more common. Its an ugly truth the fighting in the NHL and minor pros does force a level of accountability in the player base. At the same time, dropping the gloves everytime a teammate takes a hard hit because they didn't keep their head up is ridiculous.

I know people like to point to the Olympic tournaments as great hockey with no fights but there are different factors at play: the teams don't go through the same bonding process as a pro team, simply because the schedule is shorter; their livelihoods often aren't at stake; the rivalries aren't fresh enough to build antagonism like in professional leagues.

In the end, the only way fighting will go away is through a lot more rigid enforcement of the rules than the NHL and its affiliate leagues are willing to do. They need to call a lot more penalties and hand out supplemental discipline on the cheap hits, the stick work etc. to take away the motivation to fight. They also need to come down on those that are fighting too easily... but its a very difficult balancing act to do that and still keep the physicality in hockey: I LIKE watching a collision sport, not figure skating.
 
talloola
#36
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpyView Post

They have made it a politically correct sport to the point where its not worth watching but
then we will never agree on that will we

absolutely not
 
Spade
#37
Ban fighting in hockey, medical journal urges - Health - CBC News
 
petros
#38
Only ban it at the professional level.
 
Mowich
#39
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

I am not a fight fan by any stretch of the imagination. But I don't think you can ever completely get rid of fighting in hockey. It's a fast paced, contact sport...fighting is bound to happen.

Where it's gone too far is all the staged fighting, the teams who load up on goons instead of hockey players, that's what's gone too far. It's got to be treated as something that happens instead of a tactic of the game.

Compared to what went on before the lock-out, today's game has far less goons than it once did. It was the goon battles that drove me away from hockey and it was the changes that Shanahan helped bring about that brought me back. Fights will always be a part of hockey but the frequency with which they occur these days is much less than what we once witnessed.
 
L Gilbert
#40
If you're going to play hockey, play the puck, not other people. As a spectator I get annoyed when I come to watch a game and see playing time wasted on scraps between juvenile egos.
 
Spade
+1
#41
Georges Laraque on fighting and drugs in the NHL.
Most NHL tough guys hate to fight, says Georges Laraque in new book - thestar.com

CBC Books - Georges Laraque on The Current
 
talloola
#42
Quote: Originally Posted by SpadeView Post

Georges Laraque on fighting and drugs in the NHL.
Most NHL tough guys hate to fight, says Georges Laraque in new book - thestar.com

CBC Books - Georges Laraque on The Current

I'm not disputing anything laroque said in his book, for I haven't read it, and don't intend to read
it.

He said a lot about the subject when his book was released, why?, to sell the book.

No different than any other author, or celebrity who has a book coming out.

Drugs and sports is a totally different subject. Laroque's era of hockey is finished, now he
has a different way to make money. Good for him.

I don't find any connection at all to drugs and fighting in hockey, if george laroque does, fine,
I don't agree with him.

Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

If you're going to play hockey, play the puck, not other people. As a spectator I get annoyed when I come to watch a game and see playing time wasted on scraps between juvenile egos.

Don't you agree with body checking either?

I watch many games thru the week, compared to the length of a hockey game, a fight takes less than
a minute, many times less than 20 seconds.

I watch lots of games with no fights at all.

Quote: Originally Posted by MowichView Post

Compared to what went on before the lock-out, today's game has far less goons than it once did. It was the goon battles that drove me away from hockey and it was the changes that Shanahan helped bring about that brought me back. Fights will always be a part of hockey but the frequency with which they occur these days is much less than what we once witnessed.

exactly, back in the day of the broadstreet bullies, etc., fighting was seen far too often, and
many times, in a group, not just two guys, that doesn't happen often now, once in a while.
 
L Gilbert
#43
Quote: Originally Posted by talloolaView Post

Don't you agree with body checking either?

It's in the normal playing of the game. I play rugby, which is a much more violent sport than hockey, and checking is frequent. But extremely rarely does anyone ignore playing long enough to go beat on someone else simply because he was checked by them. We just get up and play more and hope there's an opportunity for reciprocity during the game. If there isn't, everyone forgets and we all have a bunch of beers afterwards. We expect to get bruised and bashed around simply because that's the nature of rugby. So fighting about it is ridiculous.

Quote:

I watch many games thru the week, compared to the length of a hockey game, a fight takes less than
a minute, many times less than 20 seconds.

I don't care. Fighting still isn't in any handbook of hockey that I know of.

Quote:

I watch lots of games with no fights at all.

Good. Then the players must have been playing hockey instead.
 
Spade
#44
This season, approximately one-third of the games have had a fight or two. There has been no appreciable change in the last 10 years. Fighting is still part of the NHL "culture."
Hockey fight statistics - NHL - hockeyfights.com (external - login to view)
 
talloola
#45
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

It's in the normal playing of the game. I play rugby, which is a much more violent sport than hockey, and checking is frequent. But extremely rarely does anyone ignore playing long enough to go beat on someone else simply because he was checked by them. We just get up and play more and hope there's an opportunity for reciprocity during the game. If there isn't, everyone forgets and we all have a bunch of beers afterwards. We expect to get bruised and bashed around simply because that's the nature of rugby. So fighting about it is ridiculous.

I don't care. Fighting still isn't in any handbook of hockey that I know of.

Good. Then the players must have been playing hockey instead.

exactly, and beating, as in body checking, is part of the flow of the game, part of the rules
of the game, part of the enjoyment of the game, makes the game much harder to play, it would
be so easy for those players to zip all over the place avoiding each other, but the first ones
to 'not' enjoy that type of play, is the players, the love what they do.
 
L Gilbert
+1
#46
Quote: Originally Posted by talloolaView Post

exactly, and beating, as in body checking, is part of the flow of the game, part of the rules
of the game, part of the enjoyment of the game, makes the game much harder to play, it would
be so easy for those players to zip all over the place avoiding each other, but the first ones
to 'not' enjoy that type of play, is the players, the love what they do.

No. I meant beating as in fighting. Checking is NOT fighting. Checking is part of the game, fighting isn't; simple as that.
If rugby players fight, they are given 5 minutes out. The next infraction means they are ejected from the game.

Quote: Originally Posted by SpadeView Post

This season, approximately one-third of the games have had a fight or two. There has been no appreciable change in the last 10 years. Fighting is still part of the NHL "culture."
Hockey fight statistics - NHL - hockeyfights.com (external - login to view)

Yeah, it's a part of the culture, not the game.
 
gerryh
+1
#47
In response to those making comments about "the old days" not having the fights they have now or not hiring players solely as enforcers, I have to ask..... what fairyland are you from?

Bobbie Clarkes Philidelphia Flyers, damn near the entire team were "goons". Tiger Williams was drafted as a fighter and shyte disturber.... he sure as hell wasn't hired for skating talent. The man couldn't skate to save his life.


Players from "the good ol days" wouldn't make the cut today. Players today are bigger, faster, and a hell of alot more technically versed in the game. Back in the "good ol days" fast players like Rocket Richard and Bobby Orr were few and far between, an anomaly. These days, if you can't skate fast, you're not playing. Changes in equipment (skates) and conditioning have made this a fact of the sport.

What I am hearing from the detractors of today's NHL is that they really just want to see the game slowed back down to where it used to be. The fact is, todays junior teams could have given the teams from the 60's a run for their money and the cup. The game, and the players, have come a long way from 40 - 50 years ago.
 
TenPenny
+1
#48
Quote: Originally Posted by talloolaView Post

I watch lots of games with no fights at all.


And they're good games. There's no need of fighting in hockey.
 
gopher
+2
#49
Quote:

nobody said the league wouldn't exist without fighting

Perhaps you missed all the discussions on Fox or ESPN radio which asserted that NHL would die if fighting was banned. This does not mean the fans who call in view it that way - just that the reporters see it like that. Not surprising, of course, as fights means major headlines, more newspaper sales, and more air time for these critics.

Quote:

I LIKE watching a collision sport

So do I, genius. But I prefer fights that are under controlled situations like martial arts and boxing. As you can plainly see from the video, players are getting seriously injured and their careers (and lives) are getting cut short because they are not controlled in the NHL.
 
wulfie68
#50
Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

As you can plainly see from the video, players are getting seriously injured and their careers (and lives) are getting cut short because they are not controlled in the NHL.

I know, over the years there have been some significant injuries from fighting incidents. I can recall Stu Grimson getting some cheek bones broken (in one of the semi-staged bouts against Dave Brown in an Edmonton-Calgary game), and I think it was Steve Smith broke his leg falling badly in a fight. Thats really about it. I'm not saying it was right but Steve Moore was injured because he WOULDN'T fight Bertuzzi, not because he did. Sure Georges Larocque and some others are complaining about it now that they are out, but there is no evidence aside from their anecdoates that former enforcers have it any worse than any other player going from a lucrative career on the ice to life after hockey. There have been tons of other players who have struggled to make that transition too. In short there is no proof that enforcers have had it worse than anyone else after retirement, just some anecdotes that could support a number of different situations.

I honestly think that the NHL is making strides by a) going after head shots and b) that they got rid of that idiot Colin Campbell and have Brendan Shanahan in charge of supplemental discipline: he is a lot more reasoned and even handed than his predecessors were (as he demonstrated in his finally suspending Ovechkin for his dangerous hits, which Campbell had repeatedly ignored).
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

And they're good games. There's no need of fighting in hockey.

Nah. Some of them are still snoozers. Its not fighting or lack of that makes a good game.
 
talloola
+2
#51
Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

Perhaps you missed all the discussions on Fox or ESPN radio which asserted that NHL would die if fighting was banned. This does not mean the fans who call in view it that way - just that the reporters see it like that. Not surprising, of course, as fights means major headlines, more newspaper sales, and more air time for these critics.



So do I, genius. But I prefer fights that are under controlled situations like martial arts and boxing. As you can plainly see from the video, players are getting seriously injured and their careers (and lives) are getting cut short because they are not controlled in the NHL.

a fight is controlled till one or both of the players obviously have had enough,(that doesn't take long), or until one or both
fall down, there is no punches allowed once a player has fallen, and almost all of the time, a player
will,( of his own accord), never punch a player that player has fallen.

it is a controlled fight fairly quickly after it starts, the linesmen are right there to intervene
at any point they decide is time.

One of the most sensitive parts of a fight is making sure one of them doesn't hit their head on the
ice, when falling down, but I have also seen a player hang onto the other player, preventing him from
hitting his head.
Most times when the fight is finished, (usually well under a minute), they nod to each other, and I
have seen one pat the other on the shoulder, almost a thank-you. Amongst the excitement of a fight,
there is also an element of respect.

Everyone who demands a certain kind of behavior from the players, always forget, it is the players who
play the game, who have played the game from little children, it is their game, not YOURS, or mine,
yet so many want to boss them around like they are still children and tell them how to play, what to do,
don't fight, do fight, just leave them alone, and along with the players association and the NHL, they
will monitor themselves, eg. a very good approach to reducing the concussions. they are all doing
their best to deal with that, and it is noticeably improving.

Brenden Shanahan played the game from a child, retired from the NHL, and now is totally in charge of
suspensions, fines and controlling players who step over the line.
He is NOT a businessman who is trying to make a big profit, he is not an owner, or a manager, he an
EX PLAYER, and has the players safety and good standing in his mind, and will do what he needs to do
to help them do better.

Each time he hands out a suspension he shows a complete video, explaing why the infraction deserved
a certain number of games suspension.
It is very clear to anyone who watches, there is no 'grey' area.

GOOD FOR HIM, he is doing a good job.
 
Spade
#52
There is a different reality.
The
 
gopher
+1
#53
The REAL game of hockey ~ shinty (Camanachd) played in the Scottish Highlands:

2012 Lovat Cup - YouTube (external - login to view)


Played with good sportsmanship and without needless violence.
 
Spade
#54
End fighting in Junior Hockey - The Globe and Mail

To quote from the article:
"Junior hockey is a business, and fighting feeds that business. It is the dark side of the national game – teenagers offering up their brains in the usually vain hope of a National Hockey League career. The overwhelming majority will not get even a sniff of the NHL. They need their brains intact.

"The rules of Canada’s game were not set in stone on a mountain top. There is no earthly reason to put teenagers’ brains through a meat grinder to keep purists happy."
 
petros
+1
#55
I think all Canadian boys need to learn how to fight on ice wearing skates.
 
damngrumpy
#56
Unless things get completely out of control I don't think those in a bar fight should
be charged with assault either. Fighting has always been part of the game and way
back they were rough and tough, and they had talent as well, now we have to endure
wimps like Wayne. Yes he is a nice guy, a great community minded person and I
agree with all that but he got special treatment. First he was a gate attraction so one
couldn't nail him like anyone else. Then there was the fact that he could trip others
or what ever but he couldn't stand up for himself, he would have had the crap beat
out of him.
I agree the game is fast, there are many players who are extremely good and the game
should be played with a minimum of violence but violence is part of the game always
has been and it should remain.
 
gerryh
+1
#57
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpyView Post

Unless things get completely out of control I don't think those in a bar fight should
be charged with assault either. Fighting has always been part of the game and way
back they were rough and tough, and they had talent as well, now we have to endure
wimps like Wayne. Yes he is a nice guy, a great community minded person and I
agree with all that but he got special treatment. First he was a gate attraction so one
couldn't nail him like anyone else. Then there was the fact that he could trip others
or what ever but he couldn't stand up for himself, he would have had the crap beat
out of him.
I agree the game is fast, there are many players who are extremely good and the game
should be played with a minimum of violence but violence is part of the game always
has been and it should remain.


Really? Ok....what special treatment did he get? Be specific and back up your assertions.

I do know that semenko was hired by Edmonton specifically to be Gretzky's "bodygaurd". To ensure that no one touched him and to take care of anyone that did touch him. Otherwise, Gretzky wasn't given any special treatment by others.
 
Cannuck
#58
Wayne Gretzky Punched By Dave Taylor - YouTube (external - login to view)

Gretzky fights Broten - YouTube (external - login to view)

Ulf Samuelsson knocks out Wayne Gretzky's wife - YouTube (external - login to view)
 
petros
#59
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

Really? Ok....what special treatment did he get? Be specific and back up your assertions.

I do know that semenko was hired by Edmonton specifically to be Gretzky's "bodygaurd". To ensure that no one touched him and to take care of anyone that did touch him. Otherwise, Gretzky wasn't given any special treatment by others.

I remember seeing Wayne in a few fights, slashing, cross checking and dirty elbows to the adam's apple. He wasn't a wimp.
 
Omicron
#60
How about tripping?

If I trip and slide down like someone taking second base, does that count?

Tell the Queen I can set things up to validate the socio-cultural legitimate power of her reign, all the way through to her eldest son's eldest son, and tell her husband to stop glowering at cameras like he's being used because we already know that.

What we're doing has been described by corn-hole mathematicians as impossible... the asymptotic bringing together of king-ship with the will of the people.

If done it will be the first time, like the first time relativity gets brought together with quantum physics.

For this tune I was going to play


But because of interference from Lucifer Puppets being told they can buy more time before being eated, I have to play this one they didn't notice to block.

tunes.digitalock.com/fromsmal...thingscome.mp3 (external - login to view)

By the way... and I am speaking totally to Canadians here...

Nanchukas are the best non-gun tool.

Wrap them in ensolite so it does not crack skulls.

Seriously... it makes all the difference when you pad them. Otherwise they are perfect personal defense weapons.

Just figure out the best way to pad nanchukas (I used white early-70's ensolite) and you won't be doomed for breaking skulls.

Have you ever seen how thin human skulls are?

Ever tried to break a raw egg by pushing it between your hands between top and bottom?

You type God wanted to keep going after His war against His own creation is saying no more than you.
Last edited by Omicron; Jan 29th, 2012 at 01:44 AM..
 

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