No justice in leniency shown to aboriginal offenders


Goober
#31
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

I have no problem accepting help. I have have a problem with expecting it, especially when you mismanage what you get by contract.

This was a generalization - At times you never know what another mans life is like until you see it first hand.
It was referring to communities working together - I should have been more specific on that.
 
L Gilbert
+1
#32
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

LOL, no, I was referring to the part about dealing with how poorly our society can fix their society.

I was curious about tense for the most part. As I see it, apart from contractual obligations, it ours job to fix where we are now.

Well, I was a bit sloppy in my usage of terms, too, so I take partial responsibility for the confusion. lol
We haven't been able to fix anything, so I'd be much happier if our society HELPED their societies get back on track. Of course, this isn't 300 years ago so there has to be modifications everywhere.

Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

I have no problem accepting help. I have have a problem with expecting it, especially when you mismanage what you get by contract.

That throws a wrench into things, alright.
 
CDNBear
+2
#33
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

This was a generalization - At times you never know what another mans life is like until you see it first hand.

This is true. But I've seen it first hand, not all of it, but enough to make me wary about all the plight being the fault of someone other than.

Quote:

It was referring to communities working together - I should have been more specific on that.

I'd like to see that too. When I've been part of such co-operative ventures, there's always someone on one side or the other that wants to make it difficult, by dwelling on the peripherals.

Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

That throws a wrench into things, alright.

I see a lot of bitching about it, but other than the Feds recently making demands of First Nations leaders making their accounts public, it's been my experience that when confronted with documented fraud. The Feds seem to go blind. Especially when it involves Pocket Injins.
 
L Gilbert
+2
#34
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

This is true. But I've seen it first hand, not all of it, but enough to make me wary about all the plight being the fault of someone other than.

I'd like to see that too. When I've been part of such co-operative ventures, there's always someone on one side or the other that wants to make it difficult, by dwelling on the peripherals.

I see a lot of bitching about it, but other than the Feds recently making demands of First Nations leaders making their accounts public, it's been my experience that when confronted with documented fraud. The Feds seem to go blind. Especially when it involves Pocket Injins.

Yeah, idiotic politicians is another wrench in the works.
 
wulfie68
+2
#35
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

Yeah, idiotic politicians is another wrench in the works.

At times I do sort of feel for the Feds on native issues as it seems in most cases, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Thanks (in large part) is due to the way so many of the original treaties were worded and the ways some gov't officials have tried to get around them but it doesn't end there. If they ignore issues and hope they go away ( a time honoroed bureaucratic response), they are negligent and not honoring the deals made. If they adopt/implement a plan that someone doesn't agree with they are insensitive/irresponsible and still held as not honoring the deals made. If they go after corruption of "pocket injuns" they are called racist for persecuting natives for crimes they (the Feds/the White Man) created. I realize a lot of the negativity comes from idiots in all corners but it still creates a no-win air surrounding much of what occurs...
 
L Gilbert
#36
Quote: Originally Posted by wulfie68View Post

At times I do sort of feel for the Feds on native issues as it seems in most cases, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Thanks (in large part) is due to the way so many of the original treaties were worded and the ways some gov't officials have tried to get around them but it doesn't end there. If they ignore issues and hope they go away ( a time honoroed bureaucratic response), they are negligent and not honoring the deals made. If they adopt/implement a plan that someone doesn't agree with they are insensitive/irresponsible and still held as not honoring the deals made. If they go after corruption of "pocket injuns" they are called racist for persecuting natives for crimes they (the Feds/the White Man) created. I realize a lot of the negativity comes from idiots in all corners but it still creates a no-win air surrounding much of what occurs...

Nope. Cooperation between societies is one remedy. There may be others.
Personally, I have no problem with there being 1 or 101 different societies in this country. We have provinces with their own laws, customs, traditions, etc., we can treat each society as its own province. They don't have to even stake a claim on real estate for that.
 
dumpthemonarchy
#37
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

Canada's sure given aboriginals special treatment ever since Europeans landed here alright. Still does. Aboriginal societies in trouble are a direct result of outsider interference. That influence destabilized the societies here, and seems to have trouble figuring out what to do about it. I think there's a perfectly simple solution.
You seem to just want to snivel about how natives deal with how poorly our society can fix their societies. That helps a great big bunch.

Here's some info: ABORIGINAL JUSTICE SYSTEMS (external - login to view)

You want a melting pot rather than a multicultural country? Go to the States. It isn't any better there.


I read about a quarter of the first link and took two quotes from it below. In the first quote, it seems like most aboriginals want to avoid the justice system, who doesn't. To be so passive and unwilling to learn is a plan doomed to failure.

In the second quote, talk of culturally appropriate administration of justice is trying to force a square peg into a round hole. It creates many jobs for lawyers, but achieves little succes for aboriginals. The federal govt will produce numerous papers, say everything is getting better, bend over backwards to help, and police will continue to arrest people who break the law, whatever their race. There is nothing unique about aboriginals in Canada.

Aboriginals used to make their own law, that time is over now. Equality is the mantra now.


"When they do engage the legal system, or become engaged by it, the manner in which their problems are dealt with often is out of tune with their unique position as Aboriginal people. As a result, they have come to mistrust the Canadian legal system and will avoid it when possible. Even when they do have to deal with it, we find that they simply minimize their exposure to it. This can take the form of inappropriate guilty pleas, failure to attend court appearances and a perpetual passivity that manifests itself in an apparent air of indifference about what happens to them in court."

"Solutions must ensure that the administration of justice to Aboriginal people is culturally appropriate."
 
CDNBear
+1
#38
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

It creates many jobs for lawyers, but achieves little succes for aboriginals.

I beg to differ. The diversion portion of Gladue, has less rate of recidivism than the mainstream legal system.

In fact, Gladue ensures programs are available to First Nations, that are not accessible to non natives, until they are sentenced.

With such positive results, the complaints about limited access to mainstream services, from Court mental health workers, are many.

 
L Gilbert
#39
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

I read about a quarter of the first link and took two quotes from it below. In the first quote, it seems like most aboriginals want to avoid the justice system, who doesn't. To be so passive and unwilling to learn is a plan doomed to failure.
In the second quote, talk of culturally appropriate administration of justice is trying to force a square peg into a round hole. It creates many jobs for lawyers, but achieves little succes for aboriginals. The federal govt will produce numerous papers, say everything is getting better, bend over backwards to help, and police will continue to arrest people who break the law, whatever their race. There is nothing unique about aboriginals in Canada.
Aboriginals used to make their own law, that time is over now. Equality is the mantra now.
"When they do engage the legal system, or become engaged by it, the manner in which their problems are dealt with often is out of tune with their unique position as Aboriginal people. As a result, they have come to mistrust the Canadian legal system and will avoid it when possible. Even when they do have to deal with it, we find that they simply minimize their exposure to it. This can take the form of inappropriate guilty pleas, failure to attend court appearances and a perpetual passivity that manifests itself in an apparent air of indifference about what happens to them in court."

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
Who gives a crap about which system is used for whom as long as whatever system is used has better effects? If the native idea of justice works better then I'm fine with it. If it also works for the rest of us, so much the better. But ours obviously doesn't work for the aboriginals and doesn't even work all that well for the rest of us.
 
dumpthemonarchy
#40
Qrong. Our system is not perfect, but it works. Canadians think crime is going down.
 
Goober
#41
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

Qrong. Our system is not perfect, but it works. Canadians think crime is going down.

And you hate Natives - First Nations - Aboriginals. You should get a life.
 
L Gilbert
+1
#42
A bit of reading: try from about a third the way down if you want to stick to just aboriginals and law - FNIP: Prospects for Aboriginal Justice in Canada> (external - login to view)

Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

Qrong. Our system is not perfect, but it works.

Sort of. As bear pointed out, there's less recidivism than with our system.
Quote:

Canadians think crime is going down.

It's irrelevant what most Canadians think. But, although the crime RATE is going down slightly, the NUMBER of crimes is increasing (because of population increase). Not sure about the difference between violent and non-violent crimes or their rates).

"Return to custody
Overall, 47.4% of the sample was re-admitted to federal custody within one year of release -- 21.9% because of a conviction for a new offence. This high recidivism rate illustrates the relatively high-risk nature of the sample offenders. Cognitive skills training generally targets offenders at high risk of recidivism.

Roughly 44.5% of those who completed the program were re-admitted to custody (see Figure 1), compared with 50.1% of the waiting-list control group and 58.2% of those who dropped out of the program (17.3% of the overall sample). The difference (p<.05) between the program group and the control group represents an 11% reduction for those who completed the program." Correctional Service of Canada - FORUM on Corrections Research (external - login to view)


Look at the graph about 2/3 of the way down the page here The Aboriginal Justice Strategy - JustResearch Issue 15 (external - login to view)
 
dumpthemonarchy
#43
The people who pay the taxes, doesn't matter what they think? I wonder who pays for the aboriginal justice system? There is an AJS to help them to assimilate easier into society. It's a temporary measure. Canadians are obviously flexible in doing what is necessary to reduce violent crime.
 
CDNBear
+2
#44
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

The people who pay the taxes, doesn't matter what they think?

Not really. The contract has been ratified.

Quote:

I wonder who pays for the aboriginal justice system?

What Aboriginal justice system? You mean Gladue? It comes from the MAA, right off the top.
 
L Gilbert
#45
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

The people who pay the taxes, doesn't matter what they think?

Good grief, how dense can you get? I said it was irrelevant to the topic, not to Canada in general. people's thoughts have no influence over crime rates. DUH
Quote:

I wonder who pays for the aboriginal justice system?

Well go find out then.
Quote:

There is an AJS to help them to assimilate easier into society. It's a temporary measure. Canadians are obviously flexible in doing what is necessary to reduce violent crime.

Like I said, if the AJS works better, it works better. You said it didn't.
Why not make it un-temporary.
 
CDNBear
#46
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

Good grief, how dense can you get?.

That was a rhetorical question right?
 
taxslave
#47
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

Yeah, idiotic politicians is another wrench in the works.

There is another kind?

I suspect that the restorative justice system works better in remote communities where the guilty party may be removed from his/her family and community than it does closer to cities where there is often less of a sense of community and family.
 
CDNBear
+3
#48
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

There is another kind?

I suspect that the restorative justice system works better in remote communities where the guilty party may be removed from his/her family and community than it does closer to cities where there is often less of a sense of community and family.

It worked quite well for the young lad that was left in my charge for a year, whose crime was committed in southern Ontario, though he lived in Northern Ontario.

In fact, the bulk of the kids that I have had contact with through Gladue, have had their charges stayed, withdrawn, or had their sentences stayed, because they came to the program, completed it and then stayed to mentor other youth.

I support the premise of the Gladue process, for first time youthful offenders. I've seen it work.
 
L Gilbert
#49
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

That was a rhetorical question right?

Uh, yeah.

Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

There is another kind?

The relatively intelligent but misguided ones. There are also the sleazy, nefarious, intelligent ones.

Quote:

I suspect that the restorative justice system works better in remote communities where the guilty party may be removed from his/her family and community than it does closer to cities where there is often less of a sense of community and family.

I think that can be worked around.
 
dumpthemonarchy
#50
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

Who gives a crap about which system is used for whom as long as whatever system is used has better effects? If the native idea of justice works better then I'm fine with it. If it also works for the rest of us, so much the better. But ours obviously doesn't work for the aboriginals and doesn't even work all that well for the rest of us.

It matters what system is used because there has to be consistency and equality in the system. The problem is this, the Canadian system of justice is "the system". We will never adopt an aboriginal system, they are tweaking our system. Tweaking means temporary mnor adjustments which are acceptable due to distance, culture, language, wealth and other factors that increase public safety. Public safety, that means everyone in Canada and the world.
 
CDNBear
#51
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

Tweaking means temporary mnor adjustments which are acceptable due to distance, culture, language, wealth and other factors that increase public safety. Public safety, that means everyone in Canada and the world.

Are you refering to "In the public interest"?

If so, finding a system that better serves a portion of the populace, to prevent/decrease recidivism, IS in the public interest.
 
L Gilbert
+1
#52
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

It matters what system is used because there has to be consistency and equality in the system. The problem is this, the Canadian system of justice is "the system". We will never adopt an aboriginal system, they are tweaking our system. Tweaking means temporary mnor adjustments which are acceptable due to distance, culture, language, wealth and other factors that increase public safety. Public safety, that means everyone in Canada and the world.

You didn't quite get the point. I'm not sure you ever will, so might as well forget it.

Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Are you refering to "In the public interest"?

If so, finding a system that better serves a portion of the populace, to prevent/decrease recidivism, IS in the public interest.

I don't think he understands.
 
CDNBear
#53
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

I don't think he understands.

Like so many others around here that are confounded by how the criminal legal system works.
 
ironsides
#54
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

It matters what system is used because there has to be consistency and equality in the system. The problem is this, the Canadian system of justice is "the system". We will never adopt an aboriginal system, they are tweaking our system. Tweaking means temporary mnor adjustments which are acceptable due to distance, culture, language, wealth and other factors that increase public safety. Public safety, that means everyone in Canada and the world.

There is no reason to adapt or change to anything the Canadian system of justic is the law of the land. Murder is murder, robbery is robbery. The Aboriginal Police force have to enforce the Canadian legal system unless laws are totally different in Canada. In the U.S. Native police forces have the same powers as State police within their reservations, even allowed to hot pursuit outside the reservation if needed. If they need extra help, they ask for it, unless it is a federal issue other police agency's stay out.
 
SLM
#55
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post


I don't think he understands.

That's the understatement of the year.

Now I realize it's still January but I sincerely think you got a shot at the title with that one.
 
L Gilbert
+2
#56
lol Oh, goody. Do I have to do a cover shot and centerfold?
 
SLM
#57
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

lol Oh, goody. Do I have to do a cover shot and centerfold?

Um,you've caught me unawares. I actually haven't made that part up yet.

If we do go centerfold, you'll be okay with full monty right? lol.
 
L Gilbert
+1
#58
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

Um,you've caught me unawares. I actually haven't made that part up yet.

If we do go centerfold, you'll be okay with full monty right? lol.

Monty Python?
 
dumpthemonarchy
#59
Quote: Originally Posted by ironsidesView Post

There is no reason to adapt or change to anything the Canadian system of justic is the law of the land. Murder is murder, robbery is robbery. The Aboriginal Police force have to enforce the Canadian legal system unless laws are totally different in Canada. In the U.S. Native police forces have the same powers as State police within their reservations, even allowed to hot pursuit outside the reservation if needed. If they need extra help, they ask for it, unless it is a federal issue other police agency's stay out.



It is a complicated idea for some, the criminal law is the same across the country. There is little evidence even the tweaks in the justice system are working for aboriginals as they continue to fill the jails because they keep committing the crimes so police keep charging them. People who make less money commit more crime and most aboriginals are poor and uneducated. Tweaks treat the symptom, not the cause. The cause is a lack of equality for aboriginals.
 
CDNBear
+1
#60
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

It is a complicated idea for some...

Which is why you don't get it.

Quote:

There is little evidence even the tweaks in the justice system are working for aboriginals as they continue to fill the jails because they keep committing the crimes so police keep charging them.

There is?

Quote:

People who make less money commit more crime and most aboriginals are poor and uneducated.

There's more of the hateful, people keep pointing out.

Quote:

The cause is a lack of equality for aboriginals.

That's one of the issues. It's about time you acknowledged that.
 

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