"3rd Party" booted out of Attawapiskat


SLM
+2
#151
Quote: Originally Posted by captain morganView Post

The only point I raise has to do with the dissemination of public funds to 'solve' a/any problem.

Yes, like I said I have no issue with the pertinent questions.

Hard questions need to be asked sometimes. But there are too many who say they are only asking hard questions but really it's just a guise for a bigoted attitude. That is definitely not saying that anyone who asks the questions is a bigot. The problem is that too many people confuse the treaty funding with the excess funding. And how can anyone have a rational discussion with someone who doesn't' grasp the basics of a situation.

Quote:

The community of Attawapiskat receives monies based on whatever deal that they made with the Feds.. That's their business and how they decide to spend it is also their business... That said, if level of funding is not sufficient, then there has to be an analysis to determine this and (hopefully) an appropriate level of funding can be negotiated.

On the other hand, if the funding level is appropriate, but the spending decisions were poor, then simply writing blank chaeues is not the solution or fair to the tax payer.

No matter how you cut it, it is (in my opinion that is) is Attawapiskat's best interests to have a 3rd party audit done to get a handle on the reality of the situation.

I don't disagree with that. Coming from a financing background, it makes the most logical sense to me. The people of the community of Attawapiskat have a right to know exactly how their money is being spent. No different than the accountability of any mayor in any city or town right across Canada.

But it's still a completely separate issue from the idea that the initial funding is a handout.



Quote:

... I'm still waiting for my invite. Do you have the right address for me?

Bear was in charge of the invitations.
 
#juan
+2
#152
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

That's the part that, for some unfathomable reason, seems to trip everybody up.

It's their money that they're being paid, not ours. Absolutely no reasonable discussion can be had, imo, until folks get that part through their thick skulls.

It is obvious that some sort of government intervention is required when a good percentage of these people are living in squalor. If the chiefs can't distribute the funds any better then that they should be relieved of that responsibility. The thick skulls don't understand why
they all don't have roughly the same quality housing. I am just about past giving a damn.
 
JLM
+1
#153
Quote: Originally Posted by #juanView Post

It is obvious that some sort of government intervention is required when a good percentage of these people are living in squalor. If the chiefs can't distribute the funds any better then that they should be relieved of that responsibility. The thick skulls don't understand why
they all don't have roughly the same quality housing. I am just about past giving a damn.

I'm not taking sides on the financial issue because I really am not sure of ALL the facts, but I am sure if cool heads sit around a table, a satisfactory compromise can be reached. First, fix those god damned houses!
 
CDNBear
+2
#154
Quote: Originally Posted by captain morganView Post

From a strictly accounting/finance point of view, the question still must be asked.

Agreed.

Quote:

The situation that states that 'the money is theirs' is all well and good, however, the moment that they community requires financial input from the public purse, the opportunity arises to analyze exactly why that money is needed.

The community of Attawapiskat receives monies based on whatever deal that they made with the Feds.. That's their business and how they decide to spend it is also their business... That said, if level of funding is not sufficient, then there has to be an analysis to determine this and (hopefully) an appropriate level of funding can be negotiated.

Agreed. Which is exactly why the third party accounting was a necessity in my opinion.

Quote: Originally Posted by captain morganView Post

... I'm still waiting for my invite. Do you have the right address for me?

Please PM the correct one, and we'll try to get the invite out on Monday.

Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

Hard questions need to be asked sometimes. But there are too many who say they are only asking hard questions but really it's just a guise for a bigoted attitude. That is definitely not saying that anyone who asks the questions is a bigot. The problem is that too many people confuse the treaty funding with the excess funding. And how can anyone have a rational discussion with someone who doesn't' grasp the basics of a situation.

You can't ask bigots hard questions either. They ignore them, call them silly, and falsely claim they've answered them already.

Quote:

Bear was in charge of the invitations.

It's always the Bear's fault, lol. You and SCB will get along just fine!

Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

I'm not taking sides on the financial issue because I really am not sure of ALL the facts, but I am sure if cool heads sit around a table, a satisfactory compromise can be reached. First, fix those god damned houses!

I'm taking sides. I want an independent audit. Fixing the housing shortage is easy. Give everyone without livable housing, a lift to the Chiefs house.
 
SLM
#155
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post


You can't ask bigots hard questions either. They ignore them, call them silly, and falsely claim they've answered them already.

Of course not. And really, who cares what they say anyway. But the problem is they have a tendency to side track all discussions.

Quote:

It's always the Bear's fault, lol. You and SCB will get along just fine!

I distinctly remember; I bring the party mix, you handle the invites.

And I think we'd get along famously.
 
CDNBear
+1
#156
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

Of course not. And really, who cares what they say anyway. But the problem is they have a tendency to side track all discussions.

Tendency?

Quote:

I distinctly remember; I bring the party mix, you handle the invites.

I blame the hypnotic nature of your pasties.

Quote:

And I think we'd get along famously.

For some reason that makes me very nervous. Kind of like a mouse in a room full of cats.
 
SLM
#157
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Tendency?

Ok, more pointedly then, the way they dictate the terms of all discussion rendering true debate at a decent level meaningless. Better?

Quote:

I blame the hypnotic nature of your pasties.

Is it the gold tassels? I can switch them out.

Quote:

For some reason that makes me very nervous. Kind of like a mouse in a room full of cats.

Live in fear.
 
CDNBear
+1
#158
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

Ok, more pointedly then, the way they dictate the terms of all discussion rendering true debate at a decent level meaningless. Better?

Very.

Quote:

Is it the gold tassels? I can switch them out.

The shiny blue ones had me fixated. Maybe the gold ones today.

Quote:

Live in fear.

Fear can be a good thing.
 
SLM
+1
#159
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post


Fear can be a good thing.

Gets the blood pumping.
 
captain morgan
+2
#160
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post


Fixing the housing shortage is easy. Give everyone without livable housing, a lift to the Chiefs house.


You sure have a knack for coming up with effective and creative solutions.
 
JLM
#161
Quote: Originally Posted by captain morganView Post

You sure have a knack for coming up with effective and creative solutions.

Yep, Bear has (the annoying to some) habit of succinctly zeroing in on the point!
 
captain morgan
+2
#162
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

But it's still a completely separate issue from the idea that the initial funding is a handout.

My question is not founded on whether they should receive any monies, but rather, are those monies being expended to the best advantage of the community.

I see 2 separate transactions in this example. The first being a deal that they had negotiated in the past and the second being the 'emergency funds' to accommodate this specific situation. In either case, the big questions on my mind is: is the funding level appropriate and does the specific use of funds seek to maximize the value to the community.

Everything beyond that is fluff or positions in a blame game
 
SLM
+1
#163
Quote: Originally Posted by captain morganView Post

My question is not founded on whether they should receive any monies, but rather, are those monies being expended to the best advantage of the community.

I see 2 separate transactions in this example. The first being a deal that they had negotiated in the past and the second being the 'emergency funds' to accommodate this specific situation. In either case, the big questions on my mind is: is the funding level appropriate and does the specific use of funds seek to maximize the value to the community.

Everything beyond that is fluff or positions in a blame game

I think, for the most part, that we are looking at it in relatively the same way.

My initial comment was directed towards those who would say "Oh look, we're giving them more money". The erroneous issue being, of course, that we are giving them money in the first place. It's not a gift, it's a payment.

Any funding, from any source, for any reason, should come with accountability. That's a no brainer. I don't care what community or group of people you are talking about.

As far as it being two separate transactions, yes and no. It would be difficult to refute that they are inextricably linked to each other. Have the original funds been used in an appropriate manner? My guess would be not, as I find it difficult to believe that an entire community would be in such dire straights had the funds been used to the betterment of the entire community. Well, not the entire community because it seems that those on the leadership payroll are doing quite well. That's a bright red flag for one. But these situations do not spring forth overnight either, so it's not like you can simply look at the current leadership and point the finger there. Nor should they be the only ones to be held accountable, anything that involves the federal government is bound to be a bureaucratic nightmare, so I don't see treaty fund payments being any different.

And while I don't follow every single article on the topic, what I am seeing just looks like political back and forth between the feds and the chief and AFN. It's all about scoring political headlines. To me, this is not the time to be dickering back and forth, get these people into decent accommodations and do it yesterday. Then deal with issues of accountability, but make sure that they are dealt with.
 
captain morgan
+2
#164
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

I think, for the most part, that we are looking at it in relatively the same way.
My initial comment was directed towards those who would say "Oh look, we're giving them more money". The erroneous issue being, of course, that we are giving them money in the first place. It's not a gift, it's a payment.
Any funding, from any source, for any reason, should come with accountability. That's a no brainer. I don't care what community or group of people you are talking about.
As far as it being two separate transactions, yes and no. It would be difficult to refute that they are inextricably linked to each other. Have the original funds been used in an appropriate manner? My guess would be not, as I find it difficult to believe that an entire community would be in such dire straights had the funds been used to the betterment of the entire community. Well, not the entire community because it seems that those on the leadership payroll are doing quite well. That's a bright red flag for one. But these situations do not spring forth overnight either, so it's not like you can simply look at the current leadership and point the finger there. Nor should they be the only ones to be held accountable, anything that involves the federal government is bound to be a bureaucratic nightmare, so I don't see treaty fund payments being any different.
And while I don't follow every single article on the topic, what I am...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post

I'd agree that we're talking the same points on this.

From my perspective, the red flag for me is the refusal of the admin to allow the 3rd party on site to review the financials.... That move is (to me) a clear signal that they are not interested in having their historical expenditures scrutinized.
 
dumpthemonarchy
#165
Says here Chief Spence lives on the reserve, good. I heard a question of whether she did, now it's answered.
Where does Chief Spence live in Attawapiskat? There are no mansions in Attawapiskat - NetNewsledger.com (external - login to view)

I saw a story on CBC TV doing a story on a reserve on Vancouver Island that had similar problems with squalid housing, and the reporter was talking to the chief. The chief responded that he did not live on the reserve in the squalid housing. I never saw any followup on this. This was one case. But it makes many people wonder, where do the chiefs live? This is the kind of information people should know.
 
gerryh
+2
#166
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

Says here Chief Spence lives on the reserve, good. I heard a question of whether she did, now it's answered.
Where does Chief Spence live in Attawapiskat? There are no mansions in Attawapiskat - NetNewsledger.com (external - login to view)

I saw a story on CBC TV doing a story on a reserve on Vancouver Island that had similar problems with squalid housing, and the reporter was talking to the chief. The chief responded that he did not live on the reserve in the squalid housing. I never saw any followup on this. This was one case. But it makes many people wonder, where do the chiefs live? This is the kind of information people should know.


So, you admit to not having a clue and yet you still put it out there as if it was a fact. Anything else you want to admit your ignorance about?
 
JLM
#167
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

Says here Chief Spence lives on the reserve, good. I heard a question of whether she did, now it's answered.
Where does Chief Spence live in Attawapiskat? There are no mansions in Attawapiskat - NetNewsledger.com (external - login to view)

I saw a story on CBC TV doing a story on a reserve on Vancouver Island that had similar problems with squalid housing, and the reporter was talking to the chief. The chief responded that he did not live on the reserve in the squalid housing. I never saw any followup on this. This was one case. But it makes many people wonder, where do the chiefs live? This is the kind of information people should know.

Not everyone is as curious of the details of others people's lives as you appear to be, especially not the negative aspects!
 
dumpthemonarchy
#168
With people living in squalid conditions there will be much more scrutiny of how hundreds of millions of dollars go to waste. Questions will come up that will require answers. Aboriginal band councils don't like scrutiny of how they conduct their affairs with taxpayer money. They will be getting more.
 
JLM
#169
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

With people living in squalid conditions there will be much more scrutiny of how hundreds of millions of dollars go to waste. Questions will come up that will require answers. Aboriginal band councils don't like scrutiny of how they conduct their affairs with taxpayer money. They will be getting more.

I'm not sure if a small portion of a demographic living in "squalid conditions" equates with money being wasted. You don't suggest that the ones who are living in luxury are the ones doing the wasting. Or an even more burning question - is money being wasted? Are white people not just as guilty of wasting money? If the truth were known I wouldn't be surprised to find they are more wasteful. What is wasteful? Taking a jet plane to Hawaii and spending a couple of weeks in a 5 star hotel, eating caviar and drinking martinis?
 
lone wolf
+1 / -1
#170
All those modular homes are in Moosonee waiting to move on soon-to-be-gone ice roads. Reason: No site preparation and a great debate about who wouldn't cut the cheque....
 
mentalfloss
#171
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolfView Post

All those modular homes are in Moosonee waiting to move on soon-to-be-gone ice roads. Reason: No site preparation and a great debate about who wouldn't cut the cheque....

Yea, this one's starting to fire up again, lol

One of the sides has to give up their worries about money and just get moving.
 
JLM
#172
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolfView Post

All those modular homes are in Moosonee waiting to move on soon-to-be-gone ice roads. Reason: No site preparation and a great debate about who wouldn't cut the cheque....

I find that a little disturbing! Although I am open minded enough to realize that frozen ground could impede site excavation and installation of services. Is someone "trying to pull teeth through the A$$hole"?

Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

Yea, this one's starting to fire up again, lol

One of the sides has to give up their worries about money and just get moving.

I'm not so sure about that. If money was given proper consideration and plans made and adhered to I would think it would be a "fait accompli" at lowest cost.
 
#juan
#173
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

I find that a little disturbing! Although I am open minded enough to realize that frozen ground could impede site excavation and installation of services. Is someone "trying to pull teeth through the A$$hole"?



I'm not so sure about that. If money was given proper consideration and plans made and adhered to I would think it would be a "fait accompli" at lowest cost.

I don't share your optimism. In five or ten years conditions will be squalid again like always. I would be like that as well if I had to live
in an area where there were no jobs or any bloody hope of there ever being any.
 
lone wolf
+1
#174
What I find most objectionable is people are being used as pawns in a power struggle between Chief (and friends) and Government
 
JLM
#175
Quote: Originally Posted by #juanView Post

I don't share your optimism. In five or ten years conditions will be squalid again like always. I would be like that as well if I had to live
in an area where there were no jobs or any bloody hope of there ever being any.

Why? I thought the Canadian Shield was a vast "treasure chest" full of resources. It is situated on a major river and close to the ocean. With a lot of home based businesses these days, location isn't quite the criteria it used to be.

Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolfView Post

What I find most objectionable is people are being used as pawns in a power struggle between Chief (and friends) and Government

The spokesperson I saw on the news last night (with the tattoo on her face) didn't give me the impression of being a direct descendent of Einstein, either in appearance or discourse.
 
lone wolf
#176
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Why? I thought the Canadian Shield was a vast "treasure chest" full of resources. It is situated on a major river and close to the ocean. With a lot of home based businesses these days, location isn't quite the criteria it used to be.



The spokesperson I saw on the news last night (with the tattoo on her face) didn't give me the impression of being a direct descendent of Einstein, either in appearance or discourse.

It's a lot of miles to anything hard around the west side of James Bay....
 
JLM
#177
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolfView Post

It's a lot of miles to anything hard around the west side of James Bay....

So how do they manage to procreate?
 
lone wolf
+2
#178
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

So how do they manage to procreate?

Same way as you and me's my guess
No debate about who gets the wet spot. Most of the land is that way....
 
mentalfloss
#179
Red tape stalling Attawapiskat progress

The New Democrat MP representing the embattled community of Attawapiskat says federal red tape is stalling progress in the remote First Nation. "The level of bureaucracy that makes simple things so difficult in these communities, it's needlessly heartbreaking," he told CTV News Channel on Sunday.

Despite government insistence that cash is flowing to Attawapiskat, Angus said leaders are still struggling to pay housing workers and circulate money to other projects such as local schools.

"Imagine any other municipality being told ‘Build a subdivision or pay your teachers,'" he said.

The first of 22 pre-fabricated homes arrived in Attawapiskat Saturday, reigniting hopes that discourse has turned into progress for the northern Ontario native community. Two more units arrived on Sunday.

But Angus says the delivery doesn't resolve numerous logistical problems in the troubled First Nation.

He noted that bone-chilling temperatures and tough, wet terrain will make it difficult to build the modular housing units, which may not be ready to live in until mid-March. "It's a really difficult deal to actually do any kind of construction in frozen muskeg in February," he said, referring to the wet, acidic soil found in the area.

Weather has been a persistent challenge for technical crews trying to remedy the community's housing crisis. Each modular housing unit must travel along an icy winter road, which Angus says is typically only open about two months of the year.

The ice-road became usable on Saturday after weeks of above-normal temperatures but traffic clogged the artery so severely that only one home could make the trip. "If you don't work with the weather, the weather's going to work against you," Angus said in a Skype interview from Timmins, Ont.

Complicating matters, crews must lay the foundation for the first few houses, a process that Angus worries may be premature.

"In February, the ground shifts," he said. "I think they would prefer to set up temporary foundations and then move the houses in the spring…when the ground is better."

Minister of Aboriginal Affairs John Duncan has said he's concerned that sites for all 22 of the promised units won't be ready before warm weather closes the road to the community near James Bay.

The government's current plan is to get all the homes to Attawapiskat while the ice road is still open and then try to hammer out other details such as when residents can move in, CTV's Daniele Hamamdjian reported Saturday.

However, Angus said community residents have told him they worry that the construction of the homes is being rushed. "Their concern is they're being ordered to put all the foundations in and make this happen now so that the government can walk away," he said.

Meanwhile, a financial tug-of-war between the First Nation and the government remains unresolved.

Last fall, the federal government appointed a third-party manager to run Attawapiskat's finances. The community sought an injunction to remove the manager but it was turned down by a federal court judge.

Red tape stalling Attawapiskat progress: NDP MP | CTV Winnipeg
 
captain morgan
+1
#180
There would probably be a lot less red-tape had the Attawapiskat leadership not run the auditor out of town.
 

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