"3rd Party" booted out of Attawapiskat


CDNBear
+9
#91
mentalfloss, I understand what you're trying to get accross.

But as it stands right now, you have two parties pointing fingers at each other.

In the court of public opinion, this just makes both sides look bad.

The way you see it, not that your bias doesn't have much to do with it, the Harper gov't is at fault.

Others, will see this as the Band's fault.

Somewhere in the middle, we actually have the truth.

An objective third party audit, would simply clear up where the issues are.

Blocking them, was stupid. They could have vindicated the community, publicly.
 
Kakato
+1
#92
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

I notice the band council office looks like it's in good shape, too.

Seems to be that it's only the houses that are crap.
And apparently that's our fault.

You can look at some of my albums on here and see that lots of northern communities are like that,If I had a 6 month winter of darkness and only 3 months of summer you can be damn sure I would be out fishing or hunting in those 3 months,not painting the crib.
I met lots of good Innuit peeps in my time and they are lifelong friends now,the folks that are the most corrupt are the ones trying to push the whitey ways on the rest of the town.The ones in true poverty are the ones still trying to live their lifestyle which is nothing like here in the world,and I call the south the world because it is.When I first flew north it was like going back 50 years,they just got cel phones in Rankin inlet 2 years ago.
The band council office prolly had a paper trail so it got built to code.
Now they are offering to move the community,thats got to bring back some bad memories for the elders!!!!!!
 
Mowich
+1
#93
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

People are still stuck on the Zamboni red herring?

Look at the funding.

The simple fact is that they did not receive enough funding to put them in the same situation as any other Canadian citizen would under similar circumstances.

What did they do with the millions of dollars that De Beers has poured into the community - that 'funding' doesn't appear in any of the audits I've read.
 
TenPenny
+1
#94
Quote: Originally Posted by KakatoView Post

You can look at some of my albums on here and see that lots of northern communities are like that,If I had a 6 month winter of darkness and only 3 months of summer you can be damn sure I would be out fishing or hunting in those 3 months,not painting the crib.

That being the case, if you don't bother doing anything to maintain your house, why is it my fking problem when it falls apart?
 
Kakato
+2
#95
I think the thing peeps should be focusing on right now is just getting these folks into somewhere to live through the winter.
Enough with the blame game'
I learned living in that country for years that you just get it done,it's pure survival and I could make a couple phone calls and have carpenters and outlook sending tents and hercs sending supplies so whats the problem?
I dont even have a grade 12 yet I can still run and resupply a camp 60 miles from the arctic circle through winter and have,if I can do it why cant the government?
I have lots of contacts from the north,some of the best in the world and as big as Canada's north is it's actually small when it comes to people,Petros and others that have worked up there know how important it is to have contacts.
I could make one phone call and have 2 herc c 130's coming steady with supplies if the money was there and I honestly think first air would give a good rate as it's a humanitarian effort.
Harper and most ignore the north,The bloody rangers get outfitted with ww2 303 british rifles to defend our sovereignity and we relocated them so they would do just that.

Sorry for the rant folks but this just pisses me off,lets just do something to fix the problem,anyone working for the government get ahold of me and I'll get er done,right now and **** will start coming up tommorow.I have numbers for guys in Vancouver and Winnipeg that live for the challenge of supplying the north.

Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

That being the case, if you don't bother doing anything to maintain your house, why is it my fking problem when it falls apart?

You do realize lots of natives were relocated up north to protect our country right?
A house in the north is a shelter,nothing else,unlike us in the world they dont need a big house as a status symbol.
 
DaSleeper
#96
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

That being the case, if you don't bother doing anything to maintain your house, why is it my fking problem when it falls apart?

If you are just renting an apartment and there is a leaky faucet do you fix it or call the landlord? or if the heat goes off?....you call the landlord
In most reserves (I understand that a few on Vancouver Island are different) the natives don't own their house, If one decides to move to the city, he moves with the clothes on his back...He can't sell that house...It is owned by the Band council....so where is the incentive to fix anything or paint, or even fix a window pane when it is much easier to just slap some plywood on it.
Not may white folks would do different with a rental property.
 
Kakato
#97
Quote: Originally Posted by DaSleeperView Post

If you are just renting an apartment and there is a leaky faucet do you fix it or call the landlord? or if the heat goes off?....you call the landlord
In most reserves (I understand that a few on Vancouver Island are different) the natives don't own their house, If one decides to move to the city, he moves with the clothes on his back...He can't sell that house...It is owned by the Band council....so where is the incentive to fix anything or paint, or even fix a window pane when it is much easier to just slap some plywood on it.
Not may white folks would do different with a rental property.

In most northern communities they are on a waiting list for years for even an apartment,and the rent you pay is dictated by how much money you make,so if you have a job at the mine making maybe $8000 a month your rent will be very high..
We moved them up there,its time to do our due diligence and make things right.
 
CDNBear
+2
#98
Quote: Originally Posted by KakatoView Post

We moved them up there...

That doesn't absolve them of personal responsibility and accountability.

Even you acknowledge wooden structures can last up to 30 years. There's no excuse (Barring fire, or natural disaster) to need a new house every 5 to 8 years.

That's beyond ridiculous.
 
Mowich
#99
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Blocking them, was stupid. They could have vindicated the community, publicly.

It certainly wasn't well thought out, Bear.


"Spence added that it would take six months for Marion to get a grasp on the community's financial situation."


Gov't-appointed consultant kicked out of Attawapiskat | CTV Montreal



 
CDNBear
#100
Quote: Originally Posted by MowichView Post

"Spence added that it would take six months for Marion to get a grasp on the community's financial situation."

Excuses are easy to come up with.
 
taxslave
#101
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

That doesn't absolve them of personal responsibility and accountability.

Even you acknowledge wooden structures can last up to 30 years. There's no excuse (Barring fire, or natural disaster) to need a new house every 5 to 8 years.

That's beyond ridiculous.

A house on a rez on the west coast of the island that our company did a fire restoration on earlier this year now needs another one. Fortunately we still have the specs for the kitchen on file.
 
CDNBear
#102
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

A house on a rez on the west coast of the island that our company did a fire restoration on earlier this year now needs another one. Fortunately we still have the specs for the kitchen on file.

What was the cause of the fire?

I know it's the 21st century now, but we lost a lot of houses on the res in the winter when the old wood burning stoves and 45gal drums, burned through and burned the house to the ground, in the 70's.
 
taxslave
+3
#103
Mental floss: I had to go to work this morning so I didn't have time to give an explanation as to why your link was the wrong answer. What they are producing as an audit is not really a forensic audit. What you got is the same thing every business gets from their accountant every year. It is good enough for revenue Canada. I once had my company audited by Revenue Canada and they didn't even come to my office. They went to the accountant and looked at his records. Did 5 in one day at one accountant. As an example what they look at tells that money came in and money went out to certain expenditures and the numbers balance. But they have no clue as to weather the new tires on my wife's car were charged to the company or not. Nor if hotel bills were for business or a holiday. That would require a forensic audit which is required in this case to see if the housing budget was all used on house construction or if snowmobiles were charged to housing. The fact that they don't want a proper audit done tells me that some one , or more probably several some ones have something to hide. My bet is that both Indian and Northern Affairs and the band both have things they would rather not have taxpayers know about.
 
Kakato
#104
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

That doesn't absolve them of personal responsibility and accountability.

Even you acknowledge wooden structures can last up to 30 years. There's no excuse (Barring fire, or natural disaster) to need a new house every 5 to 8 years.

That's beyond ridiculous.

Most arent houses,there shacks.
A sheet of plywood will cost over $100.00 dollars each.
You think you could live up there with no doctors or dentists and one store?
Good luck,they have been doing it for many years.
 
taxslave
#105
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

What was the cause of the fire?

I know it's the 21st century now, but we lost a lot of houses on the res in the winter when the old wood burning stoves and 45gal drums, burned through and burned the house to the ground, in the 70's.

Not sure except it was in the kitchen which is only about 10 months old including all the appliances. I will know tomorrow.
 
Kakato
#106
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

What was the cause of the fire?

I know it's the 21st century now, but we lost a lot of houses on the res in the winter when the old wood burning stoves and 45gal drums, burned through and burned the house to the ground, in the 70's.

In the north Diesel is king,without it they will be living in iglus in 24 hours.I saw many tents burn to the ground,the best one was when our construction consultant had a fire and was sleeping nude,he allmost died standing out on the tundra for 5 minutes at -55.

Thats why we allways stagger the tents,if one burns the rest are safe.
In the south were in the 21st century,in the north were 50 years behind.
 
Dixie Cup
#107
When I was much younger, I had a girlfriend who lived near a reserve. Her sister was dating the Band Chief's son. When I visited the reserve with them, I was appalled at the conditions of the houses there. Broken windows that had plywood covering them, doors that were damaged, crap all over the place. The Chief's house, however, was like a model home - it was beautiful upstairs but they lived downstairs - they had a second kitchen and living area in the basement. The upstairs was only for VIP's.

When I commented on the descrepancy between the Chief's home and others on the reserve, I was told that there were issues with the contractors who were hired to build all these homes - most of these homes were less than 2 years old. These contractors used substandard materials and just "threw" these houses up. The contractors didn't care whether or not things were done properly - they just wanted their money. Obviously, the government didn't do inspections or hold anyone responsible for the crap that was erected.
Now, while there might have been shoddy contractors (I frankly don't know, but being that they were being paid by the government, it wouldn't surprise me) inside my head I was wondering how the contractors were responsible for the broken windows, doors etc. Other than the Chief's house, I didn't see one house on that reserve that was decent. It made me angry that no one could be held accountable for the workmanship of these home and it also made me angry that people didn't take better care of what they had - shoddy or not. At the very least they had a roof over their heads. Maybe it was the frustration of the individuals involved - guess I can't say that I blame them.

Needless to say, I too feel that the Indian Act should be scrapped and that the aboriginals should be given more responsibility for themselves. They'd likely do a hell of a lot better job than any government bureaucrat!! Let them own the land and make their own decisions. In that way, they can live or die on the choces they make. Besides, haven't we grown up as a country yet? There has to be a better way and having our government dictate to ANYONE, much less the natives, seems rather infantile to me.

Finally, I know a few individuals who are aboriginal and they have done way better looking after their families and themselves off the reserve. They are hard working, family oriented and take pride in who and what they are. Their homes are neat and clean and some of them mortgage free. Maybe that's what's missing here. The natives don't need a "daddy" anymore and would do a lot better without him.

JMHO
 
CDNBear
+1
#108
Quote: Originally Posted by KakatoView Post

You think you could live up there with no doctors or dentists and one store?

Yes. And I lived pretty damned close to that kind of life for 8 years of my youth. Loved every minute of it, wouldn't want to do anything different.

I can list the "Little House on the Prairie" like living conditions if you'd like.

When I moved off the rez, the house was still standing and quite livable.

I wish with all my heart that this wasn't an issue. For two reasons, 1, I hate seeing anybody live in conditions as bad as is being reported here. 2, As a Native, I get painted by the same brush.

Which is why if underfunding is the issue, I want to see it in print. Even if for the selfish reasoning of, look, it ain't our fault.

Quote: Originally Posted by KakatoView Post

In the south were in the 21st century,in the north were 50 years behind.

I'm not unfamiliar with the area.

In the 70's, I may as well have been living in the late 1800's. No hydro, washing in an old galvanized wash tube, cooking with wood, heating with wood, chopping our own wood. Running a trap line, hunting and fishing for food, not sport. And so on.

Many of the homes on the res I grew up on, were heated with old stoves, and/or 45gal drums, with sand in the bottom. Fire were not uncommon. I remember burned down homes being replaced quite quickly. I understand that it was an area that was closer to amenities, but the over all attitude was self sufficiency.

I'm not trying to diminish or dismiss the severity of the environmental conditions, in the area. But one thing that was very important in the household I was raised in, was personable responsibility and accountability.

I'm also no stranger to, nor do I deny that there are many community leaders in many native communities, that are not 100% above board.

Immediate relief aside. An independent audit, would have been able to pin point the break down. Be it on the part of the Band, or the gov't. Either or, identifying the source is how you start to fix the problem. Having to rebuild homes every 5 to 8 years, is a symptom.
Last edited by CDNBear; Dec 7th, 2011 at 10:26 PM..
 
Kakato
#109
Quote: Originally Posted by Dixie CupView Post

When I was much younger, I had a girlfriend who lived near a reserve. Her sister was dating the Band Chief's son. When I visited the reserve with them, I was appalled at the conditions of the houses there. Broken windows that had plywood covering them, doors that were damaged, crap all over the place. The Chief's house, however, was like a model home - it was beautiful upstairs but they lived downstairs - they had a second kitchen and living area in the basement. The upstairs was only for VIP's.
When I commented on the descrepancy between the Chief's home and others on the reserve, I was told that there were issues with the contractors who were hired to build all these homes - most of these homes were less than 2 years old. These contractors used substandard materials and just "threw" these houses up. The contractors didn't care whether or not things were done properly - they just wanted their money. Obviously, the government didn't do inspections or hold anyone responsible for the crap that was erected.
Now, while there might have been shoddy contractors (I frankly don't know, but being that they were being paid by the government, it wouldn't surprise me) inside my head I was wondering how the contractors were responsible for the broken windows, doors etc. Other than the Chief's house, I didn't see one house on that reserve that was decent. It made me angry that no one could be held accountable for the workmanship of these home and...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
Well I could hook them up with a carpenter that can build homes and fast and get **** up there and bring competent guys but I dont see anything happening,I might be off untill xmas now here but I would volunteer help if asked.
I am very good at Arctic logistics and know how to work things in the arctic and I know the guys that would make it happen with a single phone call.
What im watching on tv right now on CBC north is brutal about this community and very sad.
Their people like us,human beings and now the govt. wants to relocate the whole community?
Didnt they learn the last time when they relocated them to the Arctic in the first place?
 
petros
#110
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

That being the case, if you don't bother doing anything to maintain your house, why is it my fking problem when it falls apart?

Why do I have to buy a bunch of *******s new furnaces and windows?
ecoENERGY Retrofit Homes - Canada's Economic Action Plan (external - login to view)
 
JLM
#111
These are fellow Canadians including seniors and children, lets systematically get the problem fixed once and for all and sort out the money later. As horrendous as the money management seems is it any worse than the Governor General with her huge entourage a few years ago tear assing over to Finland and half of the rest of world squandering $millions?
 
TenPenny
#112
Quote: Originally Posted by DaSleeperView Post

If you are just renting an apartment and there is a leaky faucet do you fix it or call the landlord? or if the heat goes off?....you call the landlord
In most reserves (I understand that a few on Vancouver Island are different) the natives don't own their house, If one decides to move to the city, he moves with the clothes on his back...He can't sell that house...It is owned by the Band council....so where is the incentive to fix anything or paint, or even fix a window pane when it is much easier to just slap some plywood on it.
Not may white folks would do different with a rental property.

And their annual wages and benefits for housing is 1.3 million dollars.

So why doesn't anyone maintain anything? What are they paying 1.3 million in wages and benefits for?
 
mentalfloss
#113
Government will evacuate Attawapiskat if necessary

The federal government says it will evacuate some makeshift homes in the troubled northern Ontario community of Attawapiskat while housing and other supplies are brought in.

Aboriginal Affairs Minister John Duncan made the offer in a letter sent to Chief Theresa Spence on Wednesday.

In the note, he said another option is to retrofit a local sportsplex and a healing centre to serve as short-term housing.

According to Duncan's letter, an assessment determined that 15 modular homes are needed to accommodate families that are currently living in makeshift housing, including tents. Duncan said the third-party manager, which the federal government had appointed to oversee the community after the housing crisis garnered national media attention and led to questions about the reserve's finances, is prepared to purchase the homes right away.

They would be delivered as soon as the winter roads open.

"I again cannot stress enough the need to work with the third-party manager, our government and our partners to ensure the health and safety of the community," Duncan wrote.

"I believe the two options above are fair and reasonable offers."

In the letter, Duncan also said wood stoves, compost toilets and cots were being sent to the community. Duncan also offered additional health-care resources.

It wasn't clear late Wednesday what Spence's response to the letter might be. The third-party manager has already left the community at the request of the band council, which resented his presence.

Spence told a news conference on Tuesday that the problem in her community is not related to the reserve's finances, which are laid bare in quarterly audits.

Also on Tuesday, the Assembly of First Nations unanimously agreed to ask the United Nations to examine whether the federal government was meeting its obligations to the community under both Canadian and international treaties.

Attawapiskat has been in a state of emergency for nearly a month, after calling for help from Ottawa amid a housing crisis that has left dozens of families living in tents and trailers with winter approaching.

Interim NDP Leader Nycole Turmel says it's time to call in the military to help the approximately 2,000 residents of Attawapiskat.

Turmel said the northern Ontario reserve is in need of supplies that are hard to bring in due to the weather conditions and the absence of a road into the community.

"Moving supplies into this community to alleviate the housing crisis will require an extraordinary level of co-ordination," Turmel said in a Wednesday letter to Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

"Given the extreme weather conditions and the fact that the winter road will not be ready for nearly two months, the community is seeking co-ordinated logistical help. For this reason, they have asked me to convey that they are asking for military support to help in the response."

Turmel said the current situation in Attawapiskat is no different than previous emergencies in which the government sent the military in.

"Our military has played an incredible role at times of other humanitarian crises in Canada. I am sure that you will agree that the conditions facing people in Attawapiskat are dire and likely to get worse as the winter sets in," Turmel said in her letter.

"I am asking you today to act immediately and target resources, including military resources as requested by the community, towards building adequate housing in Attawapiskat."

Government will evacuate Attawapiskat if necessary | CTV Winnipeg


Not perfect, but at least it's a start (finally).
 
petros
#114
Compost toilets eh? Where did I hear about those recently?
 
IdRatherBeSkiing
#115
Quote: Originally Posted by Dixie CupView Post

When I was much younger, I had a girlfriend who lived near a reserve. Her sister was dating the Band Chief's son. When I visited the reserve with them, I was appalled at the conditions of the houses there. Broken windows that had plywood covering them, doors that were damaged, crap all over the place. The Chief's house, however, was like a model home - it was beautiful upstairs but they lived downstairs - they had a second kitchen and living area in the basement. The upstairs was only for VIP's.
When I commented on the descrepancy between the Chief's home and others on the reserve, I was told that there were issues with the contractors who were hired to build all these homes - most of these homes were less than 2 years old. These contractors used substandard materials and just "threw" these houses up. The contractors didn't care whether or not things were done properly - they just wanted their money. Obviously, the government didn't do inspections or hold anyone responsible for the crap that was erected.
Now, while there might have been shoddy contractors (I frankly don't know, but being that they were being paid by the government, it wouldn't surprise me) inside my head I was wondering how the contractors were responsible for the broken windows, doors etc. Other than the Chief's house, I didn't see one house on that reserve that was decent. It made me angry that no one could be held accountable for the workmanship of these home and it also made me...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
Still doesn't explain the discrepency between the chief's home and the rest. Presumably the same contractor?
 
petros
#116
Befoe being chief what did he/she do for a living? $45 an hour diamond miner?
 
Colpy
#117
Mark Milke: Crunching Attawapiskat
 
annabattler
#118
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

If they are so underfunded, why do they HAVE an arena????????

With a zamboni.

And at least 22 unproductive people on the band payroll.....that's before you get to anyone that actually does any work.

This stinks.....big time.

And it ain't Harper & Co. emitting the smell.

They have an arena and a zamboni because that's how the feds have set up their finances...falls under recreation. In our municipality, the feds gave $5,000.000.00 specifically for an outdoor play area(splash pad,etc.). Of course,as everyone knows, the initial "building" fund is finite, and then the taxpayers have to look after all the salaries,all the benefits,all the maintenance of these grant given structures.....and there's the rub...people on reserves do NOT pay property taxes...in fact,reserves are not allowed to levy them.
 
JLM
#119
Quote: Originally Posted by annabattlerView Post

They have an arena and a zamboni because that's how the feds have set up their finances...falls under recreation. In our municipality, the feds gave $5,000.000.00 specifically for an outdoor play area(splash pad,etc.). Of course,as everyone knows, the initial "building" fund is finite, and then the taxpayers have to look after all the salaries,all the benefits,all the maintenance of these grant given structures.....and there's the rub...people on reserves do NOT pay property taxes...in fact,reserves are not allowed to levy them.

Is that the only "entertainment facility" in the town of 2000 people?
 
Nuggler
#120
I think it's time for Harpo to take an out of country trip with MacKay; since they both appear to be out of their minds.

The latest is that they are going to send in mobile homes.John Duncan was asked who would be paying for them, and he couldn't / wouldn't answer the question.

Good thing they've got their fingers right on the pulse...........................probably couldn't find one


This kind of thing has been ongoing since I was a tad, and John also said he'd just heard of this one just the other day..............holy sh it!! If I wasn't a good Conservative I might not believe any of them.......that's conservative, not C.R.A.P.
Last edited by Nuggler; Dec 9th, 2011 at 01:30 PM..
 

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