"3rd Party" booted out of Attawapiskat


mentalfloss
#61
Quote: Originally Posted by IdRatherBeSkiingView Post

But if you have given X millions to group A in the past to build houses B and then houses B never get built, does it make sense to give more millions to group A to build same houses B? Good money after bad. Group A has already shown themselves to be untrustworthy. Why trust them more?

We pay half toward that community as compared to citizens in any other community in Canada.

An audit would only tell us what's wrong with the half that we've paid so far.

We still owe them far more than that to begin with.

By the way, I would not have these sorts of reservations if I wasn't aware of the Indian Act. I'm still trying to digest the legal ramifications, but as far as I understand, we need to be in keeping with those treaties.
Last edited by mentalfloss; Dec 7th, 2011 at 11:01 AM..
 
IdRatherBeSkiing
+1
#62
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

We pay half toward that community as compared to citizens in any other community in Canada.

An audit would only tell us what's wrong with the half that we've paid so far.

We still owe them far more than that to begin with.

I am not arguing that we should not pay them more. Just that they seem to have not made wise choices with the money given them. Giving them more money to be misspend won't help.

Also, most communities get a good chunk of their money through taxation of their own citizens. They do get some downloaded money from the fed/prov govts but ask any city mayor and they will also say its too little.

First Nations are different as they get money from the Fed as part of their treaties and such. They could also choose to tax their own citizens to make up the shortfall.

But its all nice theoretical discussion without an audit of the finances and expenditures.
 
mentalfloss
#63
Quote: Originally Posted by IdRatherBeSkiingView Post

I am not arguing that we should not pay them more. Just that they seem to have not made wise choices with the money given them. Giving them more money to be misspend won't help.

No rational person would misspend enough money to put themselves into a state of emergency.
 
IdRatherBeSkiing
#64
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

No rational person would misspend enough money to put them into a state of emergency.

You are making assumptions about rationallity and community interest. Helecopter hunting trips and Zambonies are not the sign of a rational community interested group of people (who have control of the money).
 
JLM
+1
#65
Quote: Originally Posted by IdRatherBeSkiingView Post

But if you have given X millions to group A in the past to build houses B and then houses B never get built, does it make sense to give more millions to group A to build same houses B? Good money after bad. Group A has already shown themselves to be untrustworthy. Why trust them more?

That might be a little simplistic depending on what transpired before the money was handed over, what was asked for and what it was asked for for. Citizen A could need a house and ask for money. Citizen A might not understand what conditions must be in place before construction could start. Was it simply a matter of a cheque being mailed out or was there a proper meeting of the requesters and the donors laying out the procedure to be followed? Was the money in fact specified for house construction? Someone is probably at fault but the question remains...................who?

Quote: Originally Posted by IdRatherBeSkiingView Post

You are making assumptions about rationallity and community interest. Helecopter hunting trips and Zambonies are not the sign of a rational community interested group of people (who have control of the money).

Probably we are not talking about conventional hunting trips here like in the south, where the reason is first for sport, second for food. I'm guessing that a large percentage of what they eat is obtained by hunting and seeing that the area is not served by road, perhaps helicopters are an acceptable means.
 
TenPenny
#66
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

No rational person would misspend enough money to put themselves into a state of emergency.

And what does that have to do with the issue at hand?
 
mentalfloss
#67
Quote: Originally Posted by IdRatherBeSkiingView Post

You are making assumptions about rationallity and community interest. Helecopter hunting trips and Zambonies are not the sign of a rational community interested group of people (who have control of the money).

Yes, the word Zamboni definitely sounds like a really evil buzzword. I'm not surprised people are being swayed.

But when you put that into perspective within the context of payment for housing, education and the like. These people would have to have stashed that money into a pretty elusive piggy bank to warrant the current conditions they are in now.
 
DaSleeper
#68
Don't you just love that Orange Koolaid......
 
mentalfloss
#69
The Current State of Attawapiskat, ON - YouTube (external - login to view)
 
Retired_Can_Soldier
+1
#70
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

No rational person would misspend enough money to put themselves into a state of emergency.

People who rip off other people are usually not all that rational. Some are downright irrational when it comes to greed.
 
TenPenny
#71
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

If you guys actually opened up the first document, you would see that these statements are based on an an independent audit report by Ross, Pope & Company LLP (external - login to view).

If you read the cover letter, and understood what it says, you would understand that the audit was conducted for the purposes of forming an opinion on the consolidated financial statements as a whole.
 
mentalfloss
#72
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

If you read the cover letter, and understood what it says, you would understand that the audit was conducted for the purposes of forming an opinion on the consolidated financial statements as a whole.

That doesn't mean there wasn't an analysis of the expenses and their source.
 
TenPenny
#73
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

That doesn't mean there wasn't an analysis of the expenses and their source.

And it doesn't mean there was one, either.

See how that works?
 
Retired_Can_Soldier
#74
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

And it doesn't mean there was one, either.

See how that works?

TenPenny you conservative shill..
 
mentalfloss
#75
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

And it doesn't mean there was one, either.

See how that works?

Of course.

But it still doesn't deny that they are receiving half of what other Canadians get in the first place. I think a third party audit to weed out those illegitimate expenses is fine, but to make it the first order of business without admitting that the community is grossly underfunded is a bad move.
 
JLM
#76
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

And what does that have to do with the issue at hand?

Everything?

Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

Yes, the word Zamboni definitely sounds like a really evil buzzword. I'm not surprised people are being swayed.

But when you put that into perspective within the context of payment for housing, education and the like. These people would have to have stashed that money into a pretty elusive piggy bank to warrant the current conditions they are in now.

Pretty fancy Zambonis and Choppers to add up to $90 million!

Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

Of course.

But it still doesn't deny that they are receiving half of what other Canadians get in the first place. I think a third party audit to weed out those illegitimate expenses is fine, but to make it the first order of business without admitting that the community is grossly underfunded is a bad move.

Maybe all this "toing and froing" should at least initially be done between the two sides without the Gov't. using it in a futile attempt to gain "brownie points". After the bottom of the matter has been reached is plenty of time to inform the public. Public is great at jumping to conclusions.

Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

If you read the cover letter, and understood what it says, you would understand that the audit was conducted for the purposes of forming an opinion on the consolidated financial statements as a whole.

Is an "opinion" what we are after here?
 
mentalfloss
#77
The auditor general of Canada speaks up.

The auditor general of Canada released a report in June of this year examining Programs for First Nations on Reserve (external - login to view). A similar report was published in 2006. This report identifies deficiencies in program planning and delivery by Indian and Northern Affairs Canada (INAC), Health Canada, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation (CMHC), and the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat.

The reports also provide a number of recommendations to improve these deficiencies. The 2011 report evaluated the progress made since the 2006 report, and in most areas, gave these federal agencies a failing grade.

Don't worry, there is a point to this, stay with me.

The 2011 report has this to say:
In our view, many of the problems facing First Nations go deeper than the existing programs' lack of efficiency and effectiveness. We believe that structural impediments severely limit the delivery of public services to First Nations communities and hinder improvements in living conditions on reserves. We have identified four such impediments:

  • lack of clarity about service levels,
  • lack of a legislative base,
  • lack of an appropriate funding mechanism, and
  • lack of organizations to support local service delivery.
I know this is going to look like mumbo jumbo at first, so let me break it down a little for you. This will help explain why millions of dollars of funding is not enough to actually improve the living conditions of First Nations people, particularly those on reserve.


Lack of clarity about service levels

As explained earlier the federal government is in charge of delivering services that are otherwise provided by the provinces to non-natives. The auditor general states (external - login to view):
It is not always evident whether the federal government is committed to providing services on reserves of the same range and quality as those provided to other communities across Canada.
Shockingly, the federal government does not always have clear program objectives, nor does it necessarily specify specific roles and responsibilities for program delivery, and has not established measures for evaluating performance in order to determine if outcome are actually met.

What!?

That's right. The federal government is not keeping track of what it does, how it does it, or whether what it is doing works. The auditor general recommends the federal government fix this, pronto. How can a community rely on these services if the federal government itself isn't even clear on what it is providing and whether the programs are working?


Lack of a legislative base
Provincial legislation provides a basis of clarity for services delivered by provinces. A legislative base for programs specifies respective roles and responsibilities, eligibility, and other program elements. It constitutes an unambiguous commitment by government to deliver those services. The result is that accountability and funding are better defined.
The provinces all have some sort of Education Act that clearly lays out the roles and responsibilities of education authorities, as well as mechanisms of evaluation. There is generally no comparable federal legislation for the provision of First Nations education, health care, housing and so on.

As noted by the AG (external - login to view), legislation provides clarity and accountability. Without it, decision can be made on an ill-defined "policy" basis or on a completely ad hoc basis.


Lack of an appropriate funding mechanism


The AG focuses on a few areas here.

Lack of service standards for one. Were you aware that provincial building codes do not apply on reserve? Some provincial laws of "general application" (like Highway Traffic Acts) can apply on reserve, but building codes do not. There is a federal National Building Code, but enforcement and inspection has been a major problem. This has been listed as one of the factors in why homes built on reserve do not have a similar 'life' to those built off reserve.

Poor timing for provision of funds is another key issue. "Most contribution agreements must be renewed yearly. In previous audits, we found that the funds may not be available until several months into the period to be funded," the auditor general states (external - login to view).

This is particularly problematic for housing as "money often doesn't arrive until late summer, past the peak construction period, so projects get delayed and their costs rise," the CBC says.


Lack of accountability.
It is often unclear who is accountable to First Nations members for achieving improved outcomes or specific levels of services. First Nations often cite a lack of federal funding as the main reason for inadequate services. For its part, INAC maintains that the federal government funds services to First Nations but is not responsible for the delivery or provision of these services.
The AG also refers to a heavy reporting burden put on First Nations, and notes that the endless paperwork often is completely ignored anyway by federal agencies.


Lack of organisations to support local service delivery

This refers once again to the fact that there are hardly any federal school or health boards, or federal infrastructure and expertise. Some programs are delivered through provincial structures, while others are provided directly by the federal government, with less than stellar results.

Chelsea Vowel: Attawapiskat: You Want to Be Shown the Money? Here it Is. (external - login to view)
 
petros
#78
There is something Health Canada is hiding from the public. The pandemic of MRSA and other super bugs.

This rez is severely infected. Until health concerns are addressed eveything else is just fluff.

That kid with burns in the video posted runs the risk of losing a big chunk of it's arm from something as simple as a burn.

MRSA is nasty and it kills hundreds of Canadians daily. It kills more people than AIDS but you hear **** all about it.

MRSA Can Kill You! What You Need To Know! - YouTube (external - login to view)

The real reason you see so many alcohol hand dispensers isn't because of flu it's because of MRSA.
 
JLM
#79
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

MRSA is nasty and it kills hundreds of Canadians daily. It kills more people than AIDS but you hear **** all about it.

MRSA Can Kill You! What You Need To Know! - YouTube (external - login to view)

The real reason you see so many alcohol hand dispensers isn't because of flu it's because of MRSA.

Hundreds, daily? REALLY?
 
petros
#80
Yuuuup! Mostly those infected post-surgery. I've lost two elderly relatives to it, my wife has been treated twice from working in a hospital and I got it from her. I had a really bad reaction to the antibiotics (vancomyacin) and damn near died.

Health Canada had better fess up about this killer in our midsts.
 
mentalfloss
#81
I heard you're in the front lines to promote another vaccine buddy.
 
petros
#82
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

I heard you're in the front lines to promote another vaccine buddy.

You hear voices in your head? They can treat that ya know.
 
mentalfloss
#83
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

You hear voices in your head? They can treat that ya know.

They can treat that with a vaccine?

Btw, why are you posting that in this thread?
 
petros
+1
#84
No. No vaccine. If you were paying attention to the situation you'd know MRSA is rampant in Attawapiskat.

Harper vows 'action' on Attawapiskat - Politics - CBC News
 
mentalfloss
+1
#85
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

No. No vaccine. If you were paying attention to the situation you'd know MRSA is rampant in Attawapiskat.

Ah, I see.

No, I had no idea.
 
petros
+1
#86
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

Ah, I see.

No, I had no idea.

It's really nasty **** that kills and spreads like crazy.

Quote:


Dr. Heather Ringrose, who has treated many residents of Attawapiskat in her
17 months as a family doctor in the area, told CBC News that she often sees skin
conditions linked to the lack of clean running water.

“Every time I’m up here I have to deal with skin infections, cellulitis, and I have to drain skin abscesses. And I see a lot of MRSA, which is a type of skin infection that is resistant to typical antibiotics.…

A person who doesn’t have running water in their home has a harder time of
keeping clean and … to get rid of an infection once it is in the early
stages.

“I have patients who come to me every week asking me as their physician to
write letters to the band office to try to get them better housing … they tell
me there is a five-year waiting list for housing.”

 
jjaycee98
#87
Quote: Originally Posted by IdRatherBeSkiingView Post

You are making assumptions about rationallity and community interest. Helecopter hunting trips and Zambonies are not the sign of a rational community interested group of people (who have control of the money).

And how does the 325 Million agreement with DeBeers get paid out and where is it going?
 
TenPenny
#88
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

Of course.

But it still doesn't deny that they are receiving half of what other Canadians get in the first place. I.


Where's mine, then?
 
Kakato
+2
#89
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

If they are so underfunded, why do they HAVE an arena????????

With a zamboni.

And at least 22 unproductive people on the band payroll.....that's before you get to anyone that actually does any work.

This stinks.....big time.

And it ain't Harper & Co. emitting the smell.

Every community has an arena and thats good,theres not much to do with no roads anywhere and the arena is a huge social aspect of the town,they hold more then hockey games in them,they are used year round for all kinds of events and is the only place big enough to get the whole community in.They take their team sports very seriously,many times I would be waiting for a flight out of Baker lake and hundreds of people would trek out to the airport to welcome back kids coming from a basketball or hockey tournament in Arviat or some other community.The youth suicide rate in the north is very high so haveing something for them to do is money well spent.
Then you have what I used to call the "whitey" tax.When you ship goods north and they have to make numerous stops along the way theres a very good chance someone will have their hands in those goods at every airport.
If it's going to a mining camp that has lots of cash there will be more hands in the goods,it's all proportional.This is one of the reasons we allways tried to get our supplies from Yellowknife instead of Winnipeg because it flew straight from YK with no stops so you allways got your order.When I flew up from Winnipeg I made stops at 5 airports and you were very lucky if all your bags made it and even luckier if someone didnt go through it and steal your smokes.
I found lots of whites arent trusted by the natives up there,some have the mindset that they got fu**ed by us and any freebie they can get they take.Thats the reality of the north and you learn to just accept and deal with it,want 6 of something? Order 12 and you may get 6.Nothing moves fast in the north,what takes a day here in the world takes a week or more up there.
So when they finally show with an audit how many fingers are in the pot it wont surprise me if it lots!
I worked with lots of natives the last 30 years but only since I went to the arctic and lived and worked with some Innuit did I start to understand how different they are.
Most dont want big houses or status symbols,family is everything,they hunt and fish extensively and just survive in a place where most of us cant even comprehend.North of Hudsons bay it starts snowing end of september and doesnt melt untill june,they have a 3 month summer and winter is about the cruelest thing you would ever see.
So I agree theres corruption and graft in the north that needs to be fixed but it wont happen overnight as its been going on for years and is now well ingrained there.
We used to call our Innuit expediter in the eastern Arctic the Don of the north or the arctic mafia.
He exploited the whitey tax everytime you ordered something but he had contacts and could make things happen.
The cost of doing bussiness in the north,something a lot of folks dont understand.
Wheels have to be greased you know.
 
TenPenny
+1
#90
I notice the band council office looks like it's in good shape, too.

Seems to be that it's only the houses that are crap.
And apparently that's our fault.
 

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