U.S. agents slam gun sting effort on Mexico border

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. firearms agents told lawmakers on Wednesday they were instructed to only watch as hundreds of guns were bought, illegally resold and sent to Mexico where drug-related violence has raged for years.

Agents for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in Arizona told the House of Representatives Oversight Committee they were told not to arrest the so-called straw buyers and instead see where the guns went.

Republicans and Democrats on the panel expressed outrage about the ATF program -- "Operation Fast and Furious" -- and demanded answers from the Obama administration about why arrests were secondary to tracking the firearms.

"We monitored as they purchased handguns, AK-47 variants and .50 caliber rifles, almost daily at times," John Dodson, an ATF special agent in Phoenix, told the committee.

"Rather than conduct any enforcement actions, we took notes, we recorded observations, we tracked movements of these individuals, we wrote reports but nothing more."

Dodson said agents were never given reasonable answers why their activities were limited.

An ATF supervisor in Phoenix, Peter Forcelli, said some tried to raise concerns with supervisors but were rebuffed.

"My concerns were dismissed," he told the committee. "I believe that these firearms will continue to turn up at crime scenes, on both sides of the border, for years to come."

The agents complained they were ordered to break off surveillance of the firearms and instead follow the original gun purchaser rather than track where the weapons went.

Drug violence and the flow of guns over the U.S. border into Mexico has developed into a major sore point between the two countries, straining diplomatic ties and leading Mexican officials to openly criticize the United States.

THOUSANDS OF GUNS TRACED BACK TO U.S.

Of the nearly 30,000 firearms recovered in 2009 and 2010 in Mexico, where gun possession is illegal, some 70 percent were determined to have come from the United States, ATF officials told lawmakers last week.

The program has renewed the political debate over tougher gun control laws.

Republicans, who largely oppose more limits, control the House and President Barack Obama's Democrats, who generally want stricter rules, control the Senate, making it unlikely that such legislation could pass before the 2012 election.

Republicans and Democrats expressed outrage at the ATF program, particularly about two weapons being found at the scene where a U.S. Border Patrol agent, Brian Terry, was killed in a shootout with illegal immigrants.

It still has not been revealed whether either of those weapons were responsible for his death.

"What we find is that people at the local level overwhelmingly objected to this program but were assured that it was approved at the highest levels," said House Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell Issa.

A report by Issa and the top Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, Charles Grassley, said whenever there was a shooting incident in Arizona, ATF agents feared they would be traced back to guns that were supposed to be watched.

That included the shooting in January of Democratic Representative Gabrielle Giffords, who was gravely wounded. That gun has not been linked to the ATF program.

"The allegations that have been made are very troubling and new information we have obtained raises additional concerns about the roles of various actors involved in these incidents," said Elijah Cummings, the top Democrat on the panel.

Republicans on the panel have demanded documents and information about the program from the Justice Department, which includes the ATF, but the Obama administration has resisted pending its own investigation and prosecutions.

The Justice Department's inspector general is looking into any impropriety in the program. Prosecutors have also brought charges related to the death of the border patrol agent.
 

Mowich

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Dec 25, 2005
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I watched a program on Frontline, I think it was, about this sting operation a couple of weeks ago with utter astonishment. Aren't these they guys who are supposed to be controlling things like guns?
 

EagleSmack

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Feb 16, 2005
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I watched a program on Frontline, I think it was, about this sting operation a couple of weeks ago with utter astonishment. Aren't these they guys who are supposed to be controlling things like guns?

Honestly Mowich... I don't know what they do... except get in trouble for screwing up.
 

Mowich

Hall of Fame Member
Dec 25, 2005
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Honestly Mowich... I don't know what they do... except get in trouble for screwing up.

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't AFT stand for Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms? I can't imagine they doing much these days about controlling the alcohol part of the name. :lol: Not sure about tobacco down there - though here in Canada we have the RCMP cracking down on illegal tobacco sales.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Obama's minions creating the conditions for a new push for unconstitutional gun control.

Oh, and this line??

Of the nearly 30,000 firearms recovered in 2009 and 2010 in Mexico, where gun possession is illegal, some 70 percent were determined to have come from the United States, ATF officials told lawmakers last week.

Completely untrue.

The ONLY weapons sent to the ATF for ID are ones that probably came from there..........the majority of the weapons seized in Mexico are not traced to the USA....

In fact, only a fraction of the guns seized are submitted for tracing..........because most of the weapons obviously come from elsewhere.

US guns fuel Mexico drug war? The politics behind the issue. - CSMonitor.com

AND there is legal gun ownership in Mexico, it is simply very very difficult.
 

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
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The problem with the entire gun running issue is that supporters of firearm ownership continually deny that supplying guns to the general public or to the criminal element has any adverse consequences. I strongly suspect that if every weapon found in criminal hands in Mexico was stamped "Made in USA" gun advocates would claim that the Mexicans put the stamp there to confuse the issue, just as they deny that the hundreds of gun shops located near the US-Mexican border have anything to do with the ease with which Mexican criminals obtain firearms.
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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The problem with the entire gun running issue is that supporters of firearm ownership continually deny that supplying guns to the general public or to the criminal element has any adverse consequences. I strongly suspect that if every weapon found in criminal hands in Mexico was stamped "Made in USA" gun advocates would claim that the Mexicans put the stamp there to confuse the issue, just as they deny that the hundreds of gun shops located near the US-Mexican border have anything to do with the ease with which Mexican criminals obtain firearms.

No, the facts show that the abundance of gun shops along the US-Mexican borders have little to do with the ease with which Mexican criminals obtain firearms.

The best estimate is that less than 20% of the arms seized in Mexico can be traced to the USA.

And that is with the blind eye the ATF has turned to gun runners.

At the order of the Obama administration.
 

cranky

Time Out
Apr 17, 2011
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Interestingly, private ownership of guns in Mexico is not strictly banned. If you take away the cartel and policia incidents, the firearms related crimes are quite miminal, rural areas of mexico already support this hypothetical.
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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The drug war in Mexico has been a monumental failure and has killed countless civilians.

The U.S. needs to stop supplying them with arms.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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The drug war in Mexico has been a monumental failure and has killed countless civilians.

The U.S. needs to stop supplying them with arms.

CAN YOU READ?????

Or is it just comprehension that is your problem?

Or perhaps you are just on a trolling spree.........

Mexico only submits about one quarter of the guns it seizes to the USA for tracing.........it is reasonable to assume they exclude sending the ones that are obviously NOT from US sources........if 90% of those submitted came from the USA.....then only23% of the seized weapons are shown to come from the USA.

Obviously, the cartels don't need the USA to keep killing.

AND

If you want to stop the number of US guns going into Mexico, you'd better stop Obama's boys from enabling the smuggling of them in an attempt to smear the entire gun-owning public

Agent: I was ordered to let U.S. guns into Mexico - CBS News

AND

the citizens of the USA have the constitutional right to keep and bear arms of a military nature.........

How would you like it if the Americans came to Canada and demanded we suspend the Charter of Rights because they didn't like the amount of marijuana getting into the USA????

Same thing....

The Mexicans will just have to deal with it.....
.
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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Mexico only submits about one quarter of the guns it seizes to the USA for tracing.........it is reasonable to assume they exclude sending the ones that are obviously NOT from US sources........if 90% of those submitted came from the USA.....then only23% of the seized weapons are shown to come from the USA.

23% of all guns seized in Mexico are from the USA.

That's a pretty staggering statistic. That number should be a hell of a lot lower.

That also doesn't weaken the point that the U.S. is in part, supplying this bullcrap drug war that is completely unnecessary and is killing civilians.


A Houston man was sentenced to more than eight years in prison for buying military-style firearms that ended up in the hands of Mexico's violent drug cartels. Prosecutors said John Phillip Hernandez was a leader of an organisation that purchased 339 weapons over 15 months, many of them military-style weapons. At least 40 weapons have been recovered in Mexico and three have been found in Guatemala, according to court documents.

Hernandez, 26, was sentenced after pleading guilty last July to one count of making a false statement to a gun dealer. Buying weapons is legal in Texas, but the purchaser must fill out a government form that indicates whether he plans to keep the gun for himself or give it to a third party. Hernandez claimed the guns were for himself. (please insert massive lulz here)
Man sentenced for smuggling guns to Mexico that ended up in the hands of drug cartels | World news | guardian.co.uk


While no region has escaped, the killing is seen as particularly intense in northern and Pacific coastal states.

Ciudad Juarez
, just across the border from Texas, has been the most violent city since 2008 despite also having the heaviest federal presence.
Mexico drugs war murders data mapped | News | guardian.co.uk


Few would argue with that, but what about legalising drugs? Or allowing one cartel to prevail and restore the era of peaceful co-existence with narco-trafficking? The mayor shifts in his seat. The first option, though backed by thinktanks and at least two Mexican ex-presidents, remains controversial. The second remains taboo, at least officially. "What people tell me is they want tranquility, for things to go back to the way they were," says Olmos, choosing his words carefully. "I may have my own views on the subject, but as an elected official I can't talk about benefitting one cartel or another."

"There were 1,200 police when I arrived and they were all corrupt, the enemy within. I couldn't trust any of them.
Now I've got 526 new ones and we're recruiting more." Does he trust them? The general guffaws. "I don't trust my own shadow. That's how I survived 43 years in the army."
Mexico's drugs war: in the city of death | World news | The Guardian


The drug war is bullcrap.

If they stop this war now, by reducing the number of militia and legalizing these narcotics, they will end up saving lives, time and money.

Oh.. except for the money that those Americans would have made by selling guns to Mexicans.
 
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