TENS - Taxed Enough Nova Scotians


SirJosephPorter
#61
Quote: Originally Posted by bobnoorduynView Post

Well, yes we do reward laziness, but more to the point, we penalize success, we call it "progressive" income tax. Progress, and progressiveness, are nice sounding terms, until you have something growing inside you that have the same terms. Make no mistake, progress and progressiveness are destructive no matter the context or application. We are a progressing toward the abyss, just how quiclky we want to progress is up to us.

Progressive tax system is the fact of life in most developed countries, bob. There are very few countries which have a flat tax (which enormously favors the rich anyway).

Even that bastion of conservatism, USA, is not pushing for flat tax. There are only a few nut cases in the Congress who are pushing flat tax. Even in USA hardly anybody opsoes progressive incoem tax.
 
JLM
#62
Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorterView Post

Canadian Taxpayers Association is a right wing organization, Bob. Didn’t Harper use to be their president?

They have only one mandate, to reduce taxes; it is pretty much a single issue group. I wouldn’t trust them as far as I can throw them.

There have been studies, which show that taxes as percentage of GDP isn't really all that different between USA to Canada.

C.T.A. has absolutely nothing to do with this. TAx freedom day is a concept that's been around for 100 years. Why don't you study the post where I included all the STATISTICS.? Tax freedom day is currently June 6, about 157 days into the year, which represents about 42% of income.
 
JLM
#63
Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorterView Post

Oh, poor you. You just barely managed to survive without me, eh?

Now don't go getting a swelled head over it.
 
JLM
#64
Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorterView Post

Progressive tax system is the fact of life in most developed countries, bob. There are very few countries which have a flat tax (which enormously favors the rich anyway).

Even that bastion of conservatism, USA, is not pushing for flat tax. There are only a few nut cases in the Congress who are pushing flat tax. Even in USA hardly anybody opsoes progressive incoem tax.

I think your debating skills are about on par with your typing skills.
 
SirJosephPorter
#65
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Ho Ho, this site tells exactly where the bear sh*t in the buckwheat it's shows trends over the years for the U.S. - tax freedom day 100 years ago was in January. The saddest news is how we compare with other coutnes around the world - we compare with third world countries
Tax Freedom Day - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (external - login to view)

My, my, JLM. I didn’t know I was so ignorant of world affairs. I didn’t know that countries like Germany, Sweden were third world countries. Not to mention France, Israel, Norway, Belgium etc.

All these countries have tax freedom days after that of Canada. Indeed, there are very few developing countries listed in the table.

And of course a developing country will have a tax freedom day earlier than a developed country. Most people in the developing countries are dirt poor; they cannot afford to pay any taxes. I assume in countries like India, a great majority of citizens don’t pay any income tax. So it is hardly surprising that they have tax freedom day earlier.

Indeed, by and large I would expect that the poorer the country, earlier its tax freedom day would occur. If you look at poorer countries in Africa, it wouldn't surprise me if the tax freedom day occurs there in January or February. Would you rather have it the other way, would you that poor people in the developing countries should be heavily taxed?

So it is nonsense to claim that we compare with the third world counties. Our tax freedom day occurs much after most third world countries (which is as it should be) but is comparable to most developed countries.

Finally, did you not read this little gem in the website?

“Due to the different ways that nations collect and categorize public finance data, however, Tax Freedom Days are not comparable from one country to another.”

You know what I think? After so many posters posted numerous websites showing that there is very little difference in taxation between USA and Canada, you were desperate to post any website that may even remotely support your claim of Canada being heavily taxed. The website you posted doesn’t support it of course. Hence your rather ludicrous comment that Canada compares with the third world countries when it come to tax day. Nothing of the sort. Tax freedom day in Canada occurs much later than it does in third world countries.
Last edited by SirJosephPorter; Feb 25th, 2010 at 11:54 AM..
 
SirJosephPorter
#66
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

C.T.A. has absolutely nothing to do with this. TAx freedom day is a concept that's been around for 100 years. Why don't you study the post where I included all the STATISTICS.? Tax freedom day is currently June 6, about 157 days into the year, which represents about 42% of income.

Sure CTA has everything to do with it, Bob quoted CTA, so I responded to him.

As to the so called statistics you posted (a bunch of nonsense numbers, the website itself says that tax freedom days between different countries CANNOT be compared), I have responded to it at great length, in post #65.
 
SirJosephPorter
#67
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Tax freedom day is currently June 6, about 157 days into the year, which represents about 42% of income.

As to that, I notice that the tax freedom day was calculated by Fraser Institute. It is a conservative organization. While it may not be a single issue organization like Canadian Taxpayers Association, it is distinctly conservative in outlook; its agenda is also to reduce taxes.

Fraser Institute would be totally unreliable in calculating tax freedom day. That 157 days may or may not be reliable, we just don't know.
 
JLM
#68
Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorterView Post

My, my, JLM. I didn’t know I was so ignorant of world affairs. I didn’t know that countries like Germany, Sweden were third world countries. Not to mention France, Israel, Norway, Belgium etc.

You should quit "playing games" S.J.- you only fool people who are as stupid as you are. I wasn't talking about France, Israel, Norway, Belgium, what I had in mind were countries like Croatia and Slovenia. Anyway none of that has anything to do with the issue you are obviously trying to evade - PERCENTAGE OF OUR INCOME THAT GOES OUT IN THE UMPTEEN TYPES OF TAXES. Any further discussion should be only on that topic- it's what the thread started out as - not third world countries.
 
JLM
#69
Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorterView Post

Sure CTA has everything to do with it, Bob quoted CTA, so I responded to him.

As to the so called statistics you posted (a bunch of nonsense numbers, the website itself says that tax freedom days between different countries CANNOT be compared), I have responded to it at great length, in post #65.

Oh, I get it now (loud and clear) there are "STATISTICS" & "SO CALLED STATISTICS"- the latter are the former that you disagree with.
 
JLM
#70
Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorterView Post

As to that, I notice that the tax freedom day was calculated by Fraser Institute. It is a conservative organization. While it may not be a single issue organization like Canadian Taxpayers Association, it is distinctly conservative in outlook; its agenda is also to reduce taxes.

Fraser Institute would be totally unreliable in calculating tax freedom day. That 157 days may or may not be reliable, we just don't know.

Oh I get it - Fraser Institute falls short of your level of intelligence. I doubt if Fraser Institute is unreliable about much - not that I'm an expert on them.
 
TenPenny
#71
Quite so; anything I disagree with is obviously from a biased source, and therefore meaningless.
 
SirJosephPorter
#72
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

You should quit "playing games" S.J.- you only fool people who are as stupid as you are. I wasn't talking about France, Israel, Norway, Belgium, what I had in mind were countries like Croatia and Slovenia. Anyway none of that has anything to do with the issue you are obviously trying to evade - PERCENTAGE OF OUR INCOME THAT GOES OUT IN THE UMPTEEN TYPES OF TAXES. Any further discussion should be only on that topic- it's what the thread started out as - not third world countries.

You brought up the third world countries, JLM, I didn't. If you don't feel that you are on a sufficiently strong footing to debate something, just don't bring it up. It was your ludicrous claim that Canada compares with the third world countries that started the discussion.,

Incidentally, Croatia and Slovenia most certainly are not third world countries. Their per capita income ranks no, 30 and no. 48 in the world. They are third world countries only if you consider countries like, New Zealand, Saudi Arabia, Portugal and Israel to be third world countries (or may be you do, I don’t know). All these countries have a lower per capita income than Slovenia.

It helps to Google for it before making such sweeping statements (that Slovenia and Croatia are third world counties).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita (external - login to view)

I don’t know, but I get the impression that you have become apoplectic with anger and have lost all sense of perspective. Obviously something that I said has set you off (I do have that effect on many people).

My advice to you is take a deep breath (take several deep breaths), sit back, relax and cool off.
Last edited by SirJosephPorter; Feb 25th, 2010 at 01:01 PM..
 
SirJosephPorter
#73
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Oh, I get it now (loud and clear) there are "STATISTICS" & "SO CALLED STATISTICS"- the latter are the former that you disagree with.

Sure, if the website itself says that the statistics are meaningless, I take the website's word for it. This is what the website given by you rays.

“Due to the different ways that nations collect and categorize public finance data, however, Tax Freedom Days are not comparable from one country to another.”
 
SirJosephPorter
#74
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Oh I get it - Fraser Institute falls short of your level of intelligence. I doubt if Fraser Institute is unreliable about much - not that I'm an expert on them.

Frase Institute is a conservative institute. They have an agenda to promote, an ax to grind. Anything they say must be weighed with that in mind. They are not an unbiased source.
 
JLM
#75
" It was your ludicrous claim that Canada compares with the third world countries that started the discussion.,"

Yep, right- maybe you should go back to post #1 and reread it, and then go for Alzheimers testing.
 
JLM
#76
"“Due to the different ways that nations collect and categorize public finance data, however, Tax Freedom Days are not comparable from one country to another.”"

Bingo- when I was telling you that "statistics" are not reliable unless collected by the same person using the same criteria (which you no doubt recall my telling you about 15 times) all you wanted to do was argue. Having said that and admitting that the information might not be correct right to the last day - I'd accept them to be correct to the nearest week. (That's my common sense kicking in)
 
JLM
#77
Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorterView Post

Frase Institute is a conservative institute. They have an agenda to promote, an ax to grind. Anything they say must be weighed with that in mind. They are not an unbiased source.

If the Fraser Institute is in fact a Conservative institute, wouldn't that make them fairly reliable?
 
JLM
#78
The Fraser Institute - About Us (external - login to view)

Maybe you should read up on the Fraser Institute so you know what the Hell you are talking about instead of spreading more of your myths.
 
ironsides
#79
Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorterView Post

Canadian Taxpayers Association is a right wing organization, Bob. Didn’t Harper use to be their president?

They have only one mandate, to reduce taxes; it is pretty much a single issue group. I wouldn’t trust them as far as I can throw them.

There have been studies, which show that taxes as percentage of GDP isn't really all that different between USA to Canada.



That is a very easy statement to make when you can afford to pay the taxes. There is a big difference (at this moment) between taxes paid by Canadians and Americans, simply put Canadians pay more. In the real world, the GDP means nothing to the individual.


 
JLM
#80
Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorterView Post

You brought up the third world countries, JLM, I didn't. If you don't feel that you are on a sufficiently strong footing to debate something, just don't bring it up. It was your ludicrous claim that Canada compares with the third world countries that started the discussion.,

Incidentally, Croatia and Slovenia most certainly are not third world countries. Their per capita income ranks no, 30 and no. 48 in the world. They are third world countries only if you consider countries like, New Zealand, Saudi Arabia, Portugal and Israel to be third world countries (or may be you do, I don’t know). All these countries have a lower per capita income than Slovenia.

It helps to Google for it before making such sweeping statements (that Slovenia and Croatia are third world counties).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita (external - login to view)

I don’t know, but I get the impression that you have become apoplectic with anger and have lost all sense of perspective. Obviously something that I said has set you off (I do have that effect on many people).

My advice to you is take a deep breath (take several deep breaths), sit back, relax and cool off.

I googled "Third World Countries" and Saudi Arabia appears on two lists. Guess that closes that discussion..........................:lol :
 
SirJosephPorter
#81
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

"“Due to the different ways that nations collect and categorize public finance data, however, Tax Freedom Days are not comparable from one country to another.”"

Bingo- when I was telling you that "statistics" are not reliable unless collected by the same person using the same criteria (which you no doubt recall my telling you about 15 times) all you wanted to do was argue. Having said that and admitting that the information might not be correct right to the last day - I'd accept them to be correct to the nearest week. (That's my common sense kicking in)

That doesn’t make sense, JLM. When the purveyor of the statistics himself tells us that the statistics are meaningless, that is the end of story right there.

But when the statistics are put forth by Statistics Canada or whoever, they don’t say that the statistics are meaningless. Then we have only your word for it that the statistics are meaningless (and that your anecdotal experience, which usually goes against the statistics, is the true state of affairs).

I tend to believe statistical evidence, unless there is a very good reason not to believe it (as there was in the present case).
 
SirJosephPorter
#82
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

If the Fraser Institute is in fact a Conservative institute, wouldn't that make them fairly reliable?

In your eyes, perhaps. To me, whenever a body has a known political bias, whatever they say must be regarded as suspect. When an organization which campaigns for lower taxes puts forth information telling us how much we are paying in taxes, I regard such information with utmost suspicion.

That would be similar to a prolife group telling us about the evils of abortion, or Rev. Fred Phelps putting forth statistics about how homosexuality is harmful.
 
JLM
#83
Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorterView Post

In your eyes, perhaps. To me, whenever a body has a known political bias, whatever they say must be regarded as suspect. When an organization which campaigns for lower taxes puts forth information telling us how much we are paying in taxes, I regard such information with utmost suspicion.

That would be similar to a prolife group telling us about the evils of abortion, or Rev. Fred Phelps putting forth statistics about how homosexuality is harmful.

I believe I just established they are apolitical.
 
JLM
#84
"But when the statistics are put forth by Statistics Canada or whoever, they don’t say that the statistics are meaningless"

Geez, no kidding eh!
 
SirJosephPorter
#85
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

The Fraser Institute - About Us (external - login to view)

Maybe you should read up on the Fraser Institute so you know what the Hell you are talking about instead of spreading more of your myths.


OK JLM, let us look at Fraser Institute’s positions. This from their website:

Taxes:

“Canada’s tax rates, both personal and business, continue to hinder economic progress and competitiveness.”

This is their very first plank. Lowering the taxes, cutting taxes is their first priority.

Immigration:

“In recent decades the system used for the selection of immigrants has been seriously flawed. As a result, the economic performance of recent immigrants has been much weaker than those who came before 1980 or are Canadian-born.”

They are anti-immigration. Incidentally there is a racist subtext to this. I think Canada started admitting non white immigrants in fair numbers around 1980 (Is that right? I wasn’t in Canada at that time). So what Fraser Institute seems to be saying is that quality of immigrants went down after we started admitting non white immigrants.

Global Warming;

“In attempting to pressure policy decisions, some activist groups risk exaggerating the certainty and the damages of human impacts on future climate change.”

Their stance is pretty hostile to doing anything to soften the impact of global warming.

Health care:

“Canada has one of the world’s most expensive health care systems, with poor access to health care services.”

Evidently they don’t think much of Canadian health care system.

All this tells me that this is a typical conservative organization, Harper could easily run
with such an election platform.

Now, this may tell you that Fraser Institute is the ultimate in truth telling, that whatever they say is Gospel truth. To me, this makes them practically a mouthpiece of Conservative Party, and I take whatever they say with a huge pinch of salt (with several pinches of salt).

The Fraser Institute - What We Think (external - login to view)

Incidentally, not a word about the soaring deficit in Ottawa (the word 'deficit' doesn't even appear on this page), reducing the deficit certainly does not seem to be one of their priorities. How much more conservative can one get?
Last edited by SirJosephPorter; Feb 25th, 2010 at 04:51 PM..
 
SirJosephPorter
#86
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

I believe I just established they are apolitical.

Who is apolitical, Fraser Institute? Surely you jest. Read my previous post.
 
SirJosephPorter
#87
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

"But when the statistics are put forth by Statistics Canada or whoever, they don’t say that the statistics are meaningless"

Geez, no kidding eh!

Quite so, JLM. I regard statistics put forth by reputable bodies such as Statistics Canada as being reliable, unless there is a very good reason to think otherwise.
 
SirJosephPorter
#88
Quote: Originally Posted by ironsidesView Post

That is a very easy statement to make when you can afford to pay the taxes. There is a big difference (at this moment) between taxes paid by Canadians and Americans, simply put Canadians pay more. In the real world, the GDP means nothing to the individual.

That may be true if you simply look at income tax. Add everything to the mix, health care costs, Social Security tax, cost of sending one's kids to private schools in many localities etc., and studies have shown that there is very little difference between Canadian and US taxes, US taxes are only marginally lower.

And GDP is certainly important. It is one measure of how much people earn. So the ratin of taxes to GDP is very significant.
 
SirJosephPorter
#89
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

I googled "Third World Countries" and Saudi Arabia appears on two lists. Guess that closes that discussion..........................:lol :

I don't think anybody in their sound mind would call Saudi Arabia a third world country, JLM.
 
SirJosephPorter
#90
As I recall, it was Fraser Institute who came up with the ideas of user fee for health care a few years ago. They were proposing a fee of 20$ whenever somebody visited a doctor’s office. Their argument was that you would spend more than that if two people go to a movie, so why not that much on doctor’s visit?

The idea was of course quickly shot down. I don’t know if they still advocate user fees.
 

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