Grant Iranian Baha'is citizenship on landing?

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
I was thinking what would happen if all of a sudden Canada and other NATO, SEATO, or ANZUS countries, along with some members of the Unaligned Movement such as Sweden, agreed to automatically grant Iranian Baha'is citizenship upon landing on their soil.

Though it seems quite simple a plan, it could potentially wreak havoc in Iran on a number of fronts:

On the religious front:

The Iranian regime is so determined to prevent the spread of the Baha'i Faith, which it regards as an apostate religion, among the worse accusations possible in that country, that not only does it try to make it impossible for Baha'is to leave the country, but even went so far over a decade ago to try to convince Bahai's to return to Iran. Of course no Baha'i that I know bought it, and rightfully so since not long afterwards the persecution resumed as per usual.

Though this strategy seems very simple, it does have a number of advantages. First off, since the Iranian regime is trying to curtail the Baha'i Faith both at home and abroad (so it clearly sees this as a world endeavour), we needn't expect a sudden flow of Iranian Baha'is to our countries any time soon, seeing that most would likely find it hard to even get a passport, meaning that most would have to escape Iran via other means most likely, though some might manage to make it to one of our embassies (though I'm sure the Iranian authorities would be on top of that rather quickly too), which is technically our soil, in which case they could get their citizenship there. Once citizens of our countries with passports from our countries, it would make it very difficult for the Iranian regime to then keep them in the country. Worse yet, the regime might then become ever suspicious of anyone setting foot near our embassies, which would likely make even the non-Baha'is angry at the regime's harassment whenever they go to our embassies to apply for business, tourist, student, and other visas.
Once a Baha'i is a citizen of our countries, he'd also be entitled to free language raining, which could be provided by the British Council, the Alliance Francaise, USAID, CIDA, etc. even if he should decide to remain in Iran (highly unlikely scenario granted). So this last point would be somewhat theoretical, especially considering that the Iranian regime would likely not even tolerate such courses on their soil.

Add to that that the regime would likely be infuriated at the notion of non-Baha'i Iranians trying to seek asylum abroad by claiming to be Baha'i (certainly something the regime would regard as outright sacrilegious). And with Baha'is being able to go through the refugee bureaucracy much more quickly, Iranian Baha'is abroad would come to represent a larger segment of the bilingual Persian-speaking population after one generation, with their children spread out across NATO, SEATO, ANZUS, and other countries such as Sweden, would end up developing a predominantly Baha'i international commercial trading network over many years. It's also reasonable to suppose that they would have a strong influence on the ex-pat Persian-language publishing industry. This would isolate Iran even more as it suddenly faces the reality that Iranians travelling abroad will become ever more exposed to the Baha'i Faith in Persian (and even those at home via the internet). Needless to say the authorities would not take kindly to that either.

While it is true that few Baha'is would likely even make it to our embassies owing to countermeasures by the regime to lock them into the country, the impact would still be just as great. After all, the regime then finds itself with a tough choice to make. It can clamp down severely on passport issuance to any Iranian it suspects of being a Baha'i, and it can also question all who approach a foreign embassy to try to keep Iranian Baha's from setting foot in them. Bear in mind though that this would not affect Baha'is alone, but all Iranians trying to travel abroad. Needless to say such a policy would isolate and imprison all Iranians equally, thus likely making them all want change to put an end to this oppression.

Inversely, the regime could simply accept that it has lost its battle against the Baha'is and accept that they'll be able to leave the country, in which case it loses all control over the Faith (not as if it can control the growing Baha'i community beyond its borders already anyway), in which case it must accept that as more Iranians are exposed to the Bahai Faith abroad, that this will become a continuing problem in the country for years if not decades to come, with a constant brain drain and population drain in the country.

Of course a third option is that it simply launches a whole scale slaughter of the Baha'is of the country rather than the more gradualist approach it is imposing now. This woudl most certainly backfire as Persians suddenly become sympathetic to the Baha'is in large numbers.

It's a simple strategy, but the regime would face no true remedy other than to stop persecuting the Baha'is.

On the diplomatic front

One disadvantage on the diplomatic front that I could see would be that the regime could try to use this as a propaganda ploy to say the Baha'is are sellouts or whatever. On the other hand, especially if the regime has to harass people to keep them away from embassies, and makes it harder for Iranians to obtain passports, such propaganda would not hold water for long, especially if we cool down our war rhetoric.

On the economic front

Should the regime try to isolate itself, it would undoubtedly hurt its own economy in the process, thus causing even more upheaval. And if it should choose to remain open, then Baha'is become the main pillars of Iran's international trade. They're screwed either way.

On the military front

Should we adopt a friendly attitude towards Iran, it would then be very difficult for the regime to find a pretext to attack us. And after all, a country can grant citizenship to whomever it wants. But should the regime panic over our new citizenship las and decide to attack us anyway, it would then be easier to protect the Baha'is from the regime since as soon as a soldier should come across an Iranian Baha'i who declares himself a Baha'i, that person could be treated as a citizen of our country if he wishes. Again, this would make many allies in Iran (seeing that the Baha'i faith is already the second largest religion in the country!). Whether they fight on our side or not would be beside the point. At least we know they wouldn't attack us. Add to that that since the Baha'i Faith is a relatively new religion, many Iranian Baha'is would be converted baha'is, meaning that they are also deeply intertwined into Iranian society via family ties. So if the Baha'is become our friends, many of their family members who are not Baha'i would likely remain neutral too.

As simple as this strategy is, it would force Iran to make some tough choices. Honestly, I doubt it would be interested in war, but it would not take long before it realized that maybe it's time to leave the Baha'is alone.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
They are Iranians, let Iran take care of them. You're are very free with granting citizenship or you are simply putting the screws to Iranians along with your international community of warmongering pricks. Palestinians first, many of them live in an Israeli concentration camp for christ sake, where they are brutalized everyday by the vilest nation on earth.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
They are Iranians, let Iran take care of them. You're are very free with granting citizenship or you are simply putting the screws to Iranians along with your international community of warmongering pricks. Palestinians first, many of them live in an Israeli concentration camp for christ sake, where they are brutalized everyday by the vilest nation on earth.

Let the Iranians take care of them? Oh they've been taking care of them alright, just not in the sense you intend.

And Israel's treatment of the Palestinians does not lessen the way Iran treats the Baha'is.
 

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
9,949
21
38
kelowna bc
I for one don't think we should let anyone in on any religious grounds. If we were to do that
we would be letting people in from China, from other parts of the Middle East and Africa.
I personally think the whole refugee problem is going to create problems for everyone else
in time and I say the gates should be locked to certain groups coming to Canada anyway.
We have so many problems with the Middle East, we should close off all immigration and
refugees. There are other parts of the world like the Tigers or whatever from Asia as well,
seal it off until they resolve their own problems.
Yes they will take care of the Bahia's unfortunately, but that is hardly a reason for Canadians
to just let everyone in because there are religious problems, I for one say no.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
I for one don't think we should let anyone in on any religious grounds. If we were to do that
we would be letting people in from China, from other parts of the Middle East and Africa.
I personally think the whole refugee problem is going to create problems for everyone else
in time and I say the gates should be locked to certain groups coming to Canada anyway.
We have so many problems with the Middle East, we should close off all immigration and
refugees. There are other parts of the world like the Tigers or whatever from Asia as well,
seal it off until they resolve their own problems.
Yes they will take care of the Bahia's unfortunately, but that is hardly a reason for Canadians
to just let everyone in because there are religious problems, I for one say no.

Fair enough. I can also see a consistent policy of minding our own business and trying to improve our lot here, especially with regards to human rights abuses in our own county.

That said, if we're not going to take responsibility for oppressed people abroad, then we also shouldn't be going out and starting wars against them either. It really has to be one or the other. If we fight Iran ostensibly for its human rights violations, then we also need to take responsibility for its people. The two really do go hand in hand. And if we're not prepared to do that, then we really should stay out of their affairs until they become a genuine threat to us (not Bush-style WMD rhetoric).
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Fair enough. I can also see a consistent policy of minding our own business and trying to improve our lot here, especially with regards to human rights abuses in our own county.

That said, if we're not going to take responsibility for oppressed people abroad, then we also shouldn't be going out and starting wars against them either. It really has to be one or the other. If we fight Iran ostensibly for its human rights violations, then we also need to take responsibility for its people. The two really do go hand in hand. And if we're not prepared to do that, then we really should stay out of their affairs until they become a genuine threat to us (not Bush-style WMD rhetoric).

You're not interested in fighting against human rights violations you're simply interested in dumping on Iranians. If you were truly a champion of human rights you would pick the biggest offender bar none and go at them but no instead of condemning the USA you pick Iran in concert with your co internationalist and their agenda of global conquest.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
You're not interested in fighting against human rights violations you're simply interested in dumping on Iranians. If you were truly a champion of human rights you would pick the biggest offender bar none and go at them but no instead of condemning the USA you pick Iran in concert with your co internationalist and their agenda of global conquest.

What are you talking about. Sure Israel violates many human rights, but there is no denying Iran beats them on that front. I do agree though that that still does not allow Israel to walk free of criticism, anymore than Canada with its treatment of First Nations, Quebec's sign laws, Ontario's separate school system, etc. None of this changes the fact though that, on a relativistic scale, Iran is still worse.

But you are right that relativism aside, all are guilty.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
What are you talking about. Sure Israel violates many human rights, but there is no denying Iran beats them on that front. I do agree though that that still does not allow Israel to walk free of criticism, anymore than Canada with its treatment of First Nations, Quebec's sign laws, Ontario's separate school system, etc. None of this changes the fact though that, on a relativistic scale, Iran is still worse.

But you are right that relativism aside, all are guilty.

Israel is a fascist state that shoots a Palestinian child in the head every second day, it starves and brutalizes a captive people under barbaric siege and has done for sixty years. Don't tell me who is the worst, I know. No one does less for humanity than Israel.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Israel is a fascist state that shoots a Palestinian child in the head every second day, it starves and brutalizes a captive people under barbaric siege and has done for sixty years. Don't tell me who is the worst, I know. No one does less for humanity than Israel.

Fine. Just to eliminate argument, let's assume Israel is the worst offender. So, does that make the persecution of Iranian Baha'is any less oppressive?

Just to clarify, yes I do believe Canada should condemn Israel's occupation of Palestinian lands as much as it should Iran's persecution of Baha'is, but only after it's criticized popular support for ignoring Canada's treaties with the First Nations, popular support for an unjust separate school system, and popular support for Quebec's sign laws, etc.
 

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
9,949
21
38
kelowna bc
If you think about it the western world is feeling increasing isolated and there for they must defend
themselves against something. Like the Tea Party, they are afraid the future will eventually be
embraced by people who want a better life in America, if that were to happen their view of the world
will be obsolete, and people will not be dependent on the current economic regime. Even if the
Tea Party is successful it will be short lived as people will get used to things like medicare over the
next two years.
Now look at the situation in the Middle East it has many of the same parallels. We were involved in
a conflict with Saddam, over oil and nothing short of it. He could not be allowed to defy the sanctity
of Western Power. What has happened instead is the balance of power in the the Middle East
has evaporated and in its place we have a series of insurgencies and renegade or radical movements
springing up. The Middle East is just the beginning.
The Taliban wanted conflict with the west and they have it, through their actions on 9/11. Oh I know
according to some, America deserved it because the were insensitive to the tribal beliefs of those who
want to live in the 15Th century or something like that. And yes, there has been terrible things done
during the French and British occupations and the Romans and the Greeks and even the Mongolians
under Genghis Kong.
Take Iran for example, we are not going to fight with Iran over human rights, not even close, we are
going to fight them over nothing short of Brute Power for dominance. More politely, we are going to war
over economics, and oil. The people in North America, are feeling isolated and fearful brought on by
Bush Propaganda that suggests we should be afraid. People are content to fight them over there so
we don't have to fight them over here. I also can see the day coming when we will be confronted with a
problem as old as our country. Many will suggest we deport those who don't think like us or at least
round them up. Don't think so? We deported the Arcadian, We rounded up the Japanese, we put the
Natives on reserves, and if we become afraid enough we will do it again.
With all this in the background some want to bring more people into the country because they are being
oppressed. Let me tell you there are people in this country, and no I am not one of them, that feel they
are being oppressed because we keep letting people in with culturally different backgrounds and as
citizens of birth they have to accommodate them.
We as a country have to define a policy and make it clear and understandable to all and even more, we
must seek some consensus. At the present time we should be looking at our immigration policy and
we should be careful who we let in, on an individual basis. Not all people from troubled countries are
our enemies, and not all are alter boys. We have to make sure we allow immigrants and refugees, to
come here based on merit and religion or politics (left or right) should not be impediments or the skill
sets we are going to approve or not approve of.
The fact is we are going to do things because it is politically expedient, and economically profitable and
human rights has and will not have anything to do with it.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
If it's not about human rights, then we ought to just stay out of Iran. Besides, I expected some kind of opposition to the OP, and quite honestly my main objective in the OP was in fact to point out that for many who want to go to war with Iran, it really has nothing to do with human rights for caring for Iran's oppressed. As soon as we suggest actually focusing the help on the oppressed, suddenly it runs to economics and the truth comes out. If that's the case, then clearly we have no case for war with Iran.
 

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
9,949
21
38
kelowna bc
It has everything to do with Canada. I wonder how many people know the munitions factories
have been working twenty four hours a day seven days a week. We have a vested interest in
all of this. Ever since the Iraq war started the factories keep running full tilt. I am not saying I
agree with my long post I am merely talking about the way it is. We don't need to go to war
with Iran that is true. We will likely end up in some kind of conflict though
It is the same reasoning we don't want to capture Bin Laden if we do the game is over and there
is no money in that.
The world is a very dangerous place and we are in the middle of it, as we have people from all
over the world living here. Most people, coming here want to get away from the problems they
had back home. Some bring the problems with them and some cannot overcome the things
that happened to them in the past. The only reason all these groups get along in this country is
that they are not wanting to take revenge for what happened in the past if that were so we would
be in a constant state of civil war. There is a term I like civil war, is there such a thing?
As a country we cannot solve the problems of the world, but in some way we should be part of
some solution to help them where they are, and let them contribute advancement to their home
come country by giving them opportunities within their own boarders
 

dumpthemonarchy

House Member
Jan 18, 2005
4,235
14
38
Vancouver
www.cynicsunlimited.com
Countries where we are taking so many immigrants from have problems that are hundreds of years old. Have we ever solved even one of their problems? Asia has high intensity religion and high intensity problems with no solutions in sight.

Here are some really ridiculous terms I've heard in the media lately, "Afghan democracy", "Mideast peace." I'm rolling on the floor bustng a gut. Steer clear of this crowd. They don't want our "help," just make sure they don't harm us.
 

Trotz

Electoral Member
May 20, 2010
893
1
18
Alberta
Get. In. Line.

It's the Canadian way.

Which line? We give out naturalization like a free piece of gum to anyone who resides in this country for three years.

Any attempt to change the status quo will incite a response from the Human Rights Commission; an absolutist institution in this country which has more power than the Prime Minister, Monarch and Parliament combined.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Fine. Just to eliminate argument, let's assume Israel is the worst offender. So, does that make the persecution of Iranian Baha'is any less oppressive?

Just to clarify, yes I do believe Canada should condemn Israel's occupation of Palestinian lands as much as it should Iran's persecution of Baha'is, but only after it's criticized popular support for ignoring Canada's treaties with the First Nations, popular support for an unjust separate school system, and popular support for Quebec's sign laws, etc.

Your appeal to balanced condemnation accomplishes nothing, punishing the leading exponents of crime against humanity would be the most effective solution to curb those same crimes, globally. In any case it is just such meddling in the internal affairs of other nations that have gotten us to the brink of nuclear war. The twenty first centuries Tower of Babel is almost complete and you must know what is hidden and lost in the cacophony.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
109,396
11,449
113
Low Earth Orbit
I personally think the whole refugee problem is going to create problems for everyone else
in time and I say the gates should be locked to certain groups coming to Canada anyway.
Like who? If people were unequally restricted to come to Canada that means we'd be unequal on the inside too.

Iran doesn't have to recognize Bahai as a religion. No nation has to license a religion if they don't want to.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
There are twenty five thousand Iranian Jews who refuse to leave Iran despite the best efforts of Israel. So your condemnation of Iran has to take a pass on that angle. Are the Bahai just the next best convieniently available special interest group with which to package and launch an internationalist PR attack against Iran?
 

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
24,691
116
63
Moving
If it's not about human rights, then we ought to just stay out of Iran. Besides, I expected some kind of opposition to the OP, and quite honestly my main objective in the OP was in fact to point out that for many who want to go to war with Iran, it really has nothing to do with human rights for caring for Iran's oppressed. As soon as we suggest actually focusing the help on the oppressed, suddenly it runs to economics and the truth comes out. If that's the case, then clearly we have no case for war with Iran.

Another people that are killed and eaten. Yes eaten.

The pygmy holocaust
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
109,396
11,449
113
Low Earth Orbit
There are twenty five thousand Iranian Jews who refuse to leave Iran despite the best efforts of Israel. So your condemnation of Iran has to take a pass on that angle. Are the Bahai just the next best convieniently available special interest group with which to package and launch an internationalist PR attack against Iran?
Are Hill & Knowlton still in business?