It Seems Impossible (Declaring the Holocaust a Myth)

earth_as_one

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Sure I'll bite...

From Goober's original post...
"the United Kingdom has not changed the curriculum because of ’muslim population beliefs.’ "


JLM said:
And the scary part is if the likes of Idi Amin, Ciucescu, Mugabbe and Saddam Hussein are allowed to prevail it can happen all over again.
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Yes everyone should be aware of man's great inhumanities toward man. War crimes and crimes against humanity should be part of the curriculum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_against_humanity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime

Everyone should be aware of who the world's the mass killers are/were. The curriculum should be clear, concise, complete.

Regarding the holocaust, these three C's can be rather murky. No one knows exactly how many people died in this atrocity.

Wiki:
The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος [holókaustos]: hólos, "whole" and kaustós, "burnt"),[2] also known as The Shoah (Hebrew: השואה, Romanized HaShoah; Yiddish: חורבן, Romanized Churben or Hurban[3]) was the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored extermination by Nazi Germany.[4] The genocide of these six million people was a genocide of two-thirds of the population of nine million Jews who had resided in Europe before the Holocaust. [5]

Some scholars maintain that the definition of the Holocaust should also include the Nazis' systematic murder of millions of people in other groups, including ethnic Poles, Romani, Soviet civilians, Soviet prisoners of war, people with disabilities, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other political and religious opponents.[6] By this definition, the total number of Holocaust victims would be between 11 million and 17 million people.[7]
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No doubt a huge atrocity happened involving millions of people. The exact number of people who perished in this atrocity varies, depending on who you include and exclude from this exclusive category.

Most people accept that six million Jews were victims of this atrocity. seems like a rather exact number to me. I suppose its possible that Germans killed precisely 6000000 Jews. Germans are known for their precision in automobiles, watches, and so on... similar preciseness regarding death camps is possible, rather than the number being an approximate estimate gave by one of the convicted and executed killers.

I'm not sure I'd like to question this precise number given that examining this subject closely can lead to criminal persecution in many countries...

wiki
...Holocaust denial is explicitly or implicitly illegal in 16 countries: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, and Switzerland. The European Union's Framework decision on Racism and Xenophobia states that denying or grossly trivialising "crimes of genocide" should be made "punishable in all EU Member States".[154]

Slovakia made denial of fascist crimes in general a crime in late 2001; in May 2005, the term "Holocaust" was explicitly adopted by the penal code and in 2009, it became illegal to deny any act regarded by an international criminal court as genocide, implying Holocaust denial was still a crime, but excluding the term itself.

The Parliament of Hungary declared the denial or trivialization of the Holocaust a crime punishable by up to three years imprisonment on February 23, 2010.[155] The President of the Republic signed the law on March 10, 2010.

Spain decriminalized Holocaust denial in October 2007.[156] Italy rejected a draft Holocaust denial law proposing a prison sentence of up to four years in 2007, the Netherlands rejected a draft law proposing a maximum sentence of one year on denying acts of genocide in general in 2006. However, specifically denying the Holocaust is still a criminal offence since 1995. and before this the United Kingdom twice rejected a Holocaust denial law. Denmark and Sweden also have rejected Holocaust denial legislation.[157]...
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Denial of most other atrocities is legal in most countries.

What is especially amazing is that unlike other atrocity victims "The Holocaust" victims got a land without people for a people without land.

Unfortunately the resulting ethnic cleansing war killed thousands and displaced about a million people.

Since then, "The Holocaust" continues to be exploited:
The Holocaust Industry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have no doubt that Jews have suffered centuries of oppression and injustice, which makes what's going on so unbelieveable. If any group of people should known what its like to suffer, its the Jews of Europe. I would have expected empathy...

I can't describe what's going on more accurate than these fellow human beings:

Sir Gerald Bernard Kaufman

How can the victims of oppression
oppress another people?


Desmond Tutu

Courtesy: Church Times
April 26, 2002

[Desmond Tutu is the former Archbishop of Cape Town and chairman of South Africa's truth and reconciliation commission. He is also a Nobel peace laureate. This address was given at a conference on Ending the Occupation held in Boston, Massachusetts, earlier this month. A longer version appears in the current edition of Church Times.]

GOD IS WEEPING over what he sees in the Middle East. God has no one except ourselves, absolutely no one. God is omnipotent, all-powerful, but also impotent. God does not dispatch lightning bolts to remove tyrants, as we might have hoped he would. God waits for you, for you to act. You are his partner. God is as weak as the weakest of his partners, or as strong as the morally strongest.

The title of my talk is �Occupation is Oppression.� I would like to change that to �Give Peace a Chance, for Peace is Possible�; for we are bearers of hope. To God�s people, Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs, we want to say: our hearts go out to all who have suffered the violence of suicide bombers and of military incursions. I want to say to all: peace is possible. These two peoples are God�s chosen and beloved, with a common ancestor in Abraham.

I give thanks for what the Jews have given us. During apartheid we told our people God has heard their crying. And God will deliver us as God delivered Israel from bondage. God never abandoned us through tribulation and suffering.

IN OUR STRUGGLE against apartheid, the great supporters were the Jews. Jews almost instinctively had to be on the side of the disenfranchised, of the voiceless ones, fighting injustice, oppression and evil. I have continued to feel strongly with the Jews. I am patron of a Holocaust centre in South Africa. I believe Israel has a right to secure borders.

What is not so understandable, not justified, is what it did to another people to guarantee its existence. I�ve been very deeply distressed in my visit to the Holy Land; it reminded me so much of what happened to us blacks in South Africa. I have seen the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about. They seemed to derive so much joy from our humiliation.

We know of the horrific attacks on refugee camps, towns, villages, and Palestinian institutions. We don�t know the exact truth because Israelis won�t let the media in. What are they hiding?

Perhaps more sinister is why is there no outcry in the United States about the Israeli siege in the West Bank? You see the harrowing images of what suicide bombers have done, something we all condemn, but we see no scenes of what the tanks are doing to Palestinian homes and people.

ON ONE of my visits to the Holy Land I drove to a church with the Anglican Bishop in Jerusalem. I could hear tears in his voice as he pointed to Jewish settlements. I thought of the desire of Israelis for security. But what of the Palestinians who have lost their land and their homes?

I have experienced Palestinians pointing to what were their homes, now occupied by Israeli Jews. I was walking with Canon Naim Ateek (the head of the Sabeel Ecumenical Centre) in Jerusalem. He pointed and said: �Our home was over there. We were driven out of our home; it is now occupied by Israeli Jews.�

My heart aches. I say, why are our memories so short? Have our Jewish sisters and brothers forgotten their humiliation? Have they forgotten the collective punishment, the home demolitions, in their own history so soon? Have they turned their backs on their profound and noble religious traditions? Have they forgotten that God cares deeply about the downtrodden?

Israel will never get true security and safety through oppressing another people. A true peace can ultimately be built only on justice. We condemn the violence of suicide bombers, and we condemn the corruption of young minds taught hatred; but we also condemn the violence of military incursions in the occupied lands, and the inhumanity that won�t let ambulances reach the injured.

The military action of recent days, I predict with certainty, will not provide the security and peace Israelis want; it will only intensify the hatred.

ISRAEL has three options: revert to the previous stalemated situation; exterminate all Palestinians; or � and I hope this will be the road taken � to strive for peace based on justice, based on withdrawal from all the occupied territories, and the establishment of a viable Palestinian state on those territories side by side with Israel, both with secure borders.

We in South Africa had a relatively peaceful transition. If our madness could end as it did, it must be possible to do the same everywhere else in the world. South Africa is a beacon of hope for the rest of the world. If peace could come to South Africa, surely it can come to the Holy Land.

My brother Naim Ateek has said what we used to say: �I am not pro- this people or that. I am pro-justice, pro-freedom. I am anti-injustice, anti-oppression.�

But you know as well as I do that, somehow, the Israeli government is placed on a pedestal [in the US], and to criticise it is to be immediately dubbed anti-Semitic, as if the Palestinians were not Semitic. I am not even anti-white, despite the madness of that group. And how did it come about that Israel was collaborating with the apartheid government on security measures?

People are scared in this country [the US] to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful � very powerful. Well, so what? This is God�s world. For goodness sake, this is God�s world! We live in a moral universe. The apartheid government was very powerful, but today it no longer exists. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pinochet, Milosovic, and Idi Amin were all powerful, but in the end they bit the dust.

Injustice and oppression will never prevail. Those who are powerful have to remember the litmus test that God gives to the powerful: What is your treatment of the poor, the hungry, the voiceless? And on the basis of that, God passes judgement.

We should put out a clarion call to the government of the people of Israel, to the Palestinian people and say: peace is possible, peace based on justice is possible. We will do all we can to assist you to achieve this peace, because it is God�s dream, and you will be able to live amicably together as sisters and brothers.

This address was given by Dr Desmond Tutu, the former Archbishop of Cape Town, at a conference on �Ending the Occupation� held in Boston, Massachusetts, on 13 April.
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end quote...

I agree.

The Holocaust should be taught. If we don't learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it.
http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/AIR2010_AZ_EN.pdf#page=129
 
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Goober

Goober

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earth_as_one said:
Sure I'll bite...

From Goober's original post...
"the United Kingdom has not changed the curriculum because of ’muslim population beliefs.’ "




I'd like to add George W. Bush, Robert Mugabe, Charles Taylor... and so on to the curriculum.

The curriculum should be clear, concise, complete. Regarding the holocaust, the three C's are murky. No one knows exactly how many people died in this atrocity.

Wiki Reference:


Depending on who you include and exclude from the privige of joining this exclusive club.

Accepting that six million Jews were victims of this atrocity. It seems unlikely that the Germans killed exactly this number of Jews implying that the number is an approximate estimate. But Germany is known for precision in automobiles, watches, and so on...

Never mind the fact that examinging this subject closely is a crime in many countries...

Anyone feeling like there is more to most stories related to "The Holocaust"...

But I agree, it should be taught. Just taught clearly, concisely and completely rather than propaganda to shake down people and justify injustice and oppression.

The Holocaust Industry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'll even do a cut and paste, because I can't possibly say it any better than this fellow human being:

end quote...
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So what number do you think were murdered - 1 million - 100,000 - Is it a myth - did it happen - Was it planned by Hitler.
 
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Cliffy

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Goober said:
So what number do you think were murdered - 1 million - 100,000 - Is it a myth - did it happen - Was it planned by Hitler.
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It seems a little unfair to exclude all the millions of other from other groups who died in the same time period for the "purification" of the Aryan race. Those crazy buggers didn't even know that the pure Aryan race lives in Pakistan and are fairly dark skinned. Hitler would have had a bird if he knew.
 
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Goober

Goober

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Cliffy said:
It seems a little unfair to exclude all the millions of other from other groups who died in the same time period for the "purification" of the Aryan race. Those crazy buggers didn't even know that the pure Aryan race lives in Pakistan and are fairly dark skinned. Hitler would have had a bird if he knew.
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No one was excluded - But the Jews were singled out for extermination - Read your history - Trains were sent to the death camps while Germans needing supplies on the front lines could not get them - why - the rail cars were assigned to carry Jews - that was the priority-
Of course Hitler had his list of races. Slavs were also on that listing.
 
JLM

JLM

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Goober said:
No one was excluded - But the Jews were singled out for extermination - Read your history - Trains were sent to the death camps while Germans needing supplies on the front lines could not get them - why - the rail cars were assigned to carry Jews - that was the priority-
Of course Hitler had his list of races. Slavs were also on that listing.
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Along with homosexuals (not sure Hitler himself wasn't one) and anyone unable to work.
 
earth_as_one

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Goober said:
No one was excluded - But the Jews were singled out for extermination - Read your history - Trains were sent to the death camps while Germans needing supplies on the front lines could not get them - why - the rail cars were assigned to carry Jews - that was the priority-
Of course Hitler had his list of races. Slavs were also on that listing.
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Seems contradictory. How is it possible that "the Jews were singled out" while the "Slavs were also on that listing"??

BTW, does denying that Slavs were on that list also lead to jail time?

The Roma appear also to be singled out. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't denying the Roma were singled out for extermination just a misdemeanor in Canada. Its just a fine right, no serious prison time like there is for denying Jewish extermination?


What I have a hard time understanding is why the didn't Roma get a country too. Aren't there lots of lands without people for people without land that the Roma where they could occupied by only killing hundreds of people and displacing a few thousand? Seems unfair for the Roma. Then again, millions of people are not plotting to kill the Roma, so maybe they are better off. Although Jerusalem is very beautiful:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10400282

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20408.htm
 
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BM5

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Mar 8, 2008
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Goober said:
could you clarify that - Is this information about the Holocaust in error - ????
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Yes, I will clarify what I meant to say. What I meant to say and am saying is that we are a generation of indoctranation, i.e. in the words of Marshall ??? , " The media is the message " which means we are being fed contiunally with what those who control the media want us, the masses, to accept and be sympathetic to, I challenge the written word which is put before me, but when it is put before me continually, as in this issue, then I really doubt the veracity of it all.
 
C

Cliffy

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BM5 said:
Yes, I will clarify what I meant to say. What I meant to say and am saying is that we are a generation of indoctranation, i.e. in the words of Marshall ??? , " The media is the message " which means we are being fed contiunally with what those who control the media want us, the masses, to accept and be sympathetic to, I challenge the written word which is put before me, but when it is put before me continually, as in this issue, then I really doubt the veracity of it all.
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I believe it is called brainwashing. I disbelieve anything governments and corporate owned media keep feeding us as a matter of principle. I have seen first hand how the media twists facts to suit their agenda in incidences that I have witnessed first hand. It is nothing new. It has been going on for decades.
 
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