Are Foreign Lives of Equal Worth to Ours?

JBeee

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Jun 1, 2007
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By Adil E. Shamoo June 18, 2010

When a U.S. civilian is murdered in a foreign land or in the United States, we rightfully feel angry, sad, and some of us demand vengeance. These are normal, primordial, and instinctive feelings of group loyalty and herd mentality that have bound communities and countries for thousands of years. Should such human traits, which are often beneficial, emotional and irrational, continue to justify the retaliatory killing of innocent civilians in the 21st century?

After the tragic murder of nearly 3,000 U.S. citizens on 9/11, the United States toppled the Taliban in Afghanistan and killed and captured hundreds of al-Qaeda leaders and members. However, Afghanistan lost as many as 32,000 citizens since the U.S. invasion in 2001.

The U.S. military involvement in Afghanistan was followed immediately by a plan to invade Iraq and topple Iraqi President Saddam Hussein. The invasion went ahead despite the inconclusive evidence that Iraq posed any immediate threat to the United States or was involved in 9/11. In the years and months following the invasion, evidence that Iraq did not possess weapons of mass destruction and was not involved in the 9/11 attacks has become distressingly clear. Iraq by all accounts has suffered a few hundred thousand deaths, a million wounded, and the destruction of its infrastructure for economics, health, and education.

The U.S. engagement in Afghanistan and Iraq continues on a massive scale. We still have nearly 200,000 troops and contractors in the two countries. The argument is that our enemy is still plotting to kill us here in the United States and elsewhere.

The plan seems to be to keep retaliating and punishing the plotters in both countries to force them to submit to our will. In the process, whether it is admitted or not, we have killed and injured tens of thousands of civilians not involved in trying to kill us.

More recently, the United States is trying to lessen the number of civilians killed or injured.

How do Afghan and Iraqi civilians view the injuries or deaths of tens of thousands of their countrymen and women? How do they view the continued killing and wounding of hundreds or thousands of non-combatants? How would we view this number deaths and injuries among our own population? As citizens of the United States, we face the moral obligation to not only understand the tragedy of the loss of civilians, as U.S. President Barak Obama declares, but to reduce to a minimum or eliminate civilian deaths, if at all possible. Every innocent civilian killed or wounded in Afghanistan and in Iraq has a mother, father, sister, or brother, and in these close-knit tribal communities many more who are considered very close relatives. The families and friends of those harmed in these conflicts could carry with them the need for vengeance for decades to come.

More recently, we have entered a covert and overt war against the Taliban in Pakistan. In Pakistan, a country in which the United States is not officially at war, U.S. actions and offensives have killed and wounded a large number of Pakistani civilians. The high civilian death toll is in part a consequence of the Taliban living and hiding with the people of Pakistan in dense urban centers. The killing and wounding of innocent Pakistanis is also troubling because Pakistan is a large country with nuclear weapons. The killing of innocent Pakistanis will result in increased hatred and cries for revenge that is becoming a part of Pakistan cultural norms.

This situation could destabilize the country and put the safety of the nuclear arsenal at risk.

The United States needs to face the moral paradox that stems from the lack of regard for Afghan and Iraqi lives in comparison with the value placed on the lives and safety of those living in the United States.

As U.S. citizens, we value the lives of our fellow countrymen manyfold over the lives of other citizens. How else could we allow our government to continue this policy of killing and wounding our opponents in such disproportion to the number of casualties of U.S. troops and contractors for nearly nine years after 9/11.

I know that there will be loud protest of this view. However, we need to remember that the 1948 UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights emphasizes the equal worth of all human beings across the globe.

The U.S. military has achieved a killing machine that is less encumbered by popular views of war than at other times in our history. The military has mechanized and contracted out the war machinery in order to minimize the impact on U.S. citizens. The mechanization of the war can be potentially beneficial to individuals, but also very dangerous to our democracy.

This mechanization of war has also resulted in treating other nations’ citizens as less than equal to citizens of the United States. U.S. military actions kill innocent civilians in a repeated and almost routine manner. However, modern communications are informing people around the world that U.S. policies value other citizens less than its own. The human instinct of herd mentality can’t serve as justification for the indiscriminate killing of civilians outside U.S. borders.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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of course they aren't....what kind of question is that? The answer is MORE than obvious with just the number of civilians killed in Afghanistan in retaliation for 9/11. Don't even need to add in the sub humans killed in Iraq.
 

VanIsle

Always thinking
Nov 12, 2008
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We (Canadians) and Americans are in a foreign land where we are the foreigners. I don't think this question should even be asked. We are people in a country that is not ours, amonst the people of that country where killing is happening and it should not be. We're all just people. We all weep, we all bleed, we all lose.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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What a dumb question, their lives are worth something if we have troops dying over there. So they must be equal to ours.


Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.....we're over there killing them for their own good.
 

Johnnny

Frontiersman
Jun 8, 2007
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Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.....we're over there killing them for their own good.
Well i can garuntee you Sgt Martin Goudreault RIP wasnt kicking down the doors to orphanges shooting blindly into crowds of children. Or he wasnt raping afhgan women to show their men how its done. No he was fighting taliban because the people there cant on there own. Its not Martin Goudreault's fault that the mission objective changed...

If you dont think his life is worth anyone elses your ****ed up.

Sgt Martin Goudreault thought his life was equal to the people in afghanistan and he proved it. None of you button mashing **** typing toilet bugs can compare to him
 

SirJosephPorter

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Nov 7, 2008
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It may be callous to say so, but the answer is no, foreign lives are not equal to ours. And that holds true not only of Canada and USA, but of every country in the world, citizens there regard their lives as more valuable that lives abroad.

Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died during the Bush war, I have seen estimates as high as 500,000. Now, suppose 500,000 Americans had died in Iraq war, what would have been the reaction in USA?

One of the two. Iraq war may have been intensely unpopular, USA would have got out of Iraq in a hurry, due to public pressure. Or there would have been so much outrage at home (for the death of 500,000 Americans) that there may even have been demand to use nuclear weapons and defeat Iraq once and for all.

Either way, there is no way Americans would have been indifferent to the war, as they currently are. Same would apply to Canada.

Indeed, same would apply to almost any country. E.g. why should citizens of Luxembourg care that 500,000 people died in Iraq? They may be sorry that it happened in general, but they won’t lose any sleep over it.

So the answer is yes, people in any country regard the lives of their fellow citizens as being more valuable than lives of foreigners.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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Well i can garuntee you Sgt Martin Goudreault RIP wasnt kicking down the doors to orphanges shooting blindly into crowds of children. Or he wasnt raping afhgan women to show their men how its done. No he was fighting taliban because the people there cant on there own. Its not Martin Goudreault's fault that the mission objective changed...

If you dont think his life is worth anyone elses your ****ed up.

Sgt Martin Goudreault thought his life was equal to the people in afghanistan and he proved it. None of you button mashing **** typing toilet bugs can compare to him

:roll::roll:


I know...I know...... murder is such a noble calling.
 

Liberalman

Senate Member
Mar 18, 2007
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It's all about power and which country can represent the people better.

That's why countries invade other countries for defense and wealth acquisitions.

Sometime governments will tell their people lies to justify an invasion as America did so they could enter Iraq.

Once a country's military is in a foreign land they are there for a long time.

An example of that is Germany where the war ended more than sixty years ago and the military of a foreign land is still there.

So is foreign lives equal to us yes when our military is protecting them.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
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Location, Location
Read any news report about any tragedy. It will say something like "2 Canadians killed in landslide", when the real story is that 10,000 people were killed.

It's called 'local interest', and it's done to try to make the story more interesting.

If a soldier is killed, it's played up more in his/her hometown.

Otherwise, we'd just say, 'today, a bunch more people were killed someplace'.
 

Johnnny

Frontiersman
Jun 8, 2007
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:roll::roll:


I know...I know...... murder is such a noble calling.

i dont think he murdered anyone, he was killed by an IED searching for weapons stockpiles. Where does it say he is a murderer? can you provide a link please...

If your going to call someone a murderer, could you prove he killed someone in cold blood please?

Of course canadians care about afghanistanians... remember when karzai was allowing women to be raped by their husbands? canada was front row centre speaking out against that.
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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It may be callous to say so, but the answer is no, foreign lives are not equal to ours. And that holds true not only of Canada and USA, but of every country in the world, citizens there regard their lives as more valuable that lives abroad.

Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died during the Bush war, I have seen estimates as high as 500,000. Now, suppose 500,000 Americans had died in Iraq war, what would have been the reaction in USA?

One of the two. Iraq war may have been intensely unpopular, USA would have got out of Iraq in a hurry, due to public pressure. Or there would have been so much outrage at home (for the death of 500,000 Americans) that there may even have been demand to use nuclear weapons and defeat Iraq once and for all.

Either way, there is no way Americans would have been indifferent to the war, as they currently are. Same would apply to Canada.

Indeed, same would apply to almost any country. E.g. why should citizens of Luxembourg care that 500,000 people died in Iraq? They may be sorry that it happened in general, but they won’t lose any sleep over it.

So the answer is yes, people in any country regard the lives of their fellow citizens as being more valuable than lives of foreigners.
Well written.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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Red Deer AB
Or he wasnt raping afhgan women to show their men how its done.
By the wild look in your horses eye you might want to stop licking his shyte, he may have gotten into a mushroom patch.

Those are the same people that were encouraged to throw acid into the faces of the women who were becoming Lawyers, judges and elected Politicians. Encouraged by a whole lot of under the table US money. You know the same kind of politics all of North America has.
 

Johnnny

Frontiersman
Jun 8, 2007
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You didn't know the US government supported the Taliban right up until a few days before the invasion? Where have you been?

DUH

I want to see evidence that our latest casualty from Afghanistan is a cold blooded murder...

Lets see the evidence that Sgt Martin Goudreault and the rest of our soliders who died in afghanistan are murderers liek the peanut gallery are claiming.

I havent been able to find stories of canadian soliders burning orphanges, filling mass graves, raping afghan women, etc etc
 

Downhome_Woman

Electoral Member
Dec 2, 2008
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It's a bizarre question! All lives are important. Are those civilians killed in Afghanistan by Allied soldiers important? Of course. Are the lives of the innocent killed by the Taliban important? Of course. Here's the difference. it's horrible, but civilians get killed when people like the Taliban chose to hide amongst them and essentially use them as human shields. They also get caught in friendly fire incidents - and that needs to be addressed. But those innocents - who are murdered willfully and intentionally by groups like El Queda and the Taliban? Where is all your compassion and moral indignation? I keep seeing all the 'we shouldn't be there killing innocent people' from people here, but I want them to explain to me why it's ok for members of the Taliban to plant IEDs - which kill Afghani civilians intentionally and it's ok to blow up small businesses and schools. And please - don't tell me it's a 'cultural thing'. It has nothing to do with culture and everything to do with power and oppression. With our people there? At least we're trying to help - as ineffectual as you all might think - we are at least trying to help.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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what are you trying to say MHz?
What he said .

"You didn't know the US government supported the Taliban right up until a few days before the invasion? Where have you been?"

1978 April 28 Saur Revolution: Military units loyal to the PDPA assaulted the Afghan Presidential palace, killing President Mohammed Daoud Khan. May 1 Saur Revolution: The PDPA installed its leader, Nur Muhammad Taraki, as President of Afghanistan. July A rebellion against the new Afghan government began with an uprising in Nuristan. December 5 A treaty was signed which permitted deployment of the Soviet military at the Afghan government's request.
In 1978 the CIA was covertly funding that group, notice it was created before any invasion, the had the same source of funds. They would have been the terrorists to the current government which was in a pitched battle to end the control the 'old guard' did not want to give up. The US fought against that, in secret as usual.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]1978 -- Daoud is killed and his government falls in a bloody Communist-backed coup. Mass killings, arrests and tortures ensue, and the Afghan guerrilla (Mujahidin) movement is born.
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]1979 -- Anticommunist forces take control, prompting a Soviet invasion. The Soviets lose about 15,000 troops in constant fighting, and withdraw by the late 1980s.

http://www.uscrusade.com/afghan/timeline.htm
[/FONT]
 
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Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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You and cliffy assumed i didnt know that just like you guys assume our soliders are cold blooded killers
Neither of us said they were cold blooded killers. Gerry did. I'm sure he has his reasons. But from my point of view, soldiers are trained to fight. We are over there to fight the taliban. Unarmed innocent people die. Murder or collateral damage? I haven't been there so I'm not sure what to call it. All I know is that we shouldn't be there. As for protecting women from the evil taliban? Who is protecting them from us?