Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

[Goober]

Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Does Israel have the right to a State that is free from attacks.

Does Israel have the right to secure borders.

I have seen how threads like this can become a rant and rave - yes I am guilty -

I will try to " play nice" as my friend Cliffy reminds me when I get somewhat out of hand - Thank you Cliffy - We all need that now and again -

So let us see if we can play nicely together and have a decent discussion - difference of opinion -

Do the Arab Countries have to Guarantee this ? If so how can it be enforced -

UN Troops - Useless - Look at Lebanon and the smuggling by Hezbollah - the building of bunkers and rebuilding of strategic points -
While the UN can do nothing.

Should Arab Countries accept a substantial number of the Palestinian ( Refugees) I do not consider the vast majority to be qualified as refugees as many of those present today in these camps, the fathers and mothers left Israel on the advice of Arabs that were planning to destroy Israel and murder Jews.

The Genocide never happened because Israel won the War.

What will the Arabs do when Hamas, Hezbollah and other extremists - (Terror Groups that want the total cleansing ( by any means possible) of Jews from Greater Palestine)- groups within the borders of Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon attack Israel with rockets supplied by Iran or others -

Who will they arrest these terrorists - Likely answer is No One.

Would you trust Arab Guarantees?

Jerusalem - Should it be a divided capital - If so why - Jordan had the rights prior to the 67 war to Jerusalem and gave the rights up later- Jordan purged Jerusalem of Jews when to captured part of Jerusalem.Also -

War Crimes have been committed by Both Israeli's and Palestinians -
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_jordan_renounce_claims.php
In April 1950, Jordan annexed eastern Jerusalem (dividing the city for the first time in its history) and the "West Bank" areas in historical Judea and Samaria that Trans-Jordan had occupied by military force in 1948 (Jordan changed its name to Trans-Jordan in April 1949). On April 24, 1950, the Jordan House of Deputies and House of Notables, in a joint session, adopted a Resolution making the West Bank and Jerusalem part of Jordan. This act had no basis in international law; it was only the de facto act of Trans-Jordan as a conqueror. The other Arab countries denied formal recognition of the Jordanian move and only two governments - Great Britain and Pakistan - formally recognized the Jordanian takeover. The rest of the world, including the United States, never did.In July 1988, in response to the accumulated pressures and the months of intifada demonstrations by Palestinians in the West Bank, King Hussein of Jordan ceded to the PLO all Jordanian claims to the territory. Any hopes of a Jordanian-Israeli resolution to the Palestine problem were effectively ended. He dissolved the Jordanian parliament, half of whom were West Bank representatives, and stopped paying salaries to over 20,000 West Bank civil servants. When the Palestine National Council recognized the PLO as the sole legal representative of the Palestinians, Hussein immediately gave them official recognition.Although the establishment of an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank posed a potential threat to Jordan as a Hashemite kingdom, Hussein gambled that this was less of a threat than the possibility of Jordan to become the alternative homeland for the Palestinians. By taking Jordan out of the way, relinquishing any claim of sovereignty, he sought to move solutions toward the Palestinian state in line with the desires of Arafat and the PLO

.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
See UN Maps
http://www.mefacts.com/outgoing.asp?x_id=10191

The following statement by Abba Eban was cited in the Jerusalem Post of August 18, 1995 by Jerusalem Post columnist Moshe Kohn:"We have openly said that the map will never again be the same as on June 4, 1967. For us, this is a matter of security and of principles. The June map is for us equivalent to insecurity and danger. I do not exaggerate when I say that it has for us something of a memory of Auschwitz. We shudder when we think of what would have awaited us in the circumstances of June, 1967, if we had been defeated; with Syrians on the mountain and we in the valley, with the Jordanian army in sight of the sea, with the Egyptians who hold our throat in their hands in Gaza. This is a situation which will never be repeated in history."- Abba Eban, Israeli Statesman, in Der Spiegel, November 5, 1969
(with thanks to Dr. Aaron Lerner and to Clarence Wagner for locating this item)

On July 26, 1978, Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, whose parents and older brother were murdered by the Nazis, commented on Israeli Televsion about Abba Eban 's use of the term "Auschwitz lines", when he described the June 4, 1967 map, saying that "you have never heard such an extreme term from me . . . because there will be no Auschwitz here"
http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=000642

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=1118
Israel - Pre 1967 War

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=1125

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=1149
Israel 200o
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_242

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_Palestinehttp://

www.historylearningsite.co.uk/palestine_1918_to_1948.htm

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Arabs_in_Palestine.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestinehttp://

www.mideastweb.org/mandate.htm

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate.phphttp://

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Arabs_in_Palestine.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israelhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestinehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917

http://www.science.co.il/arab-israeli-conflict.asp#Jerusalem

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Israeli_History/SixDay_War,_Yom_Kippur_War,_Settlements

 

[MHz]

Should Arab Countries accept a substantial number of the Palestinian ( Refugees) I do not consider the vast majority to be qualified as refugees as many of those present today in these camps, the fathers and mothers left Israel on the advice of Arabs that were planning to destroy Israel and murder Jews.
The Genocide never happened because Israel won the War.

I got this far before I stopped reading. Reality doesn't revolve around what you consider thing to be or not to be. lol
Which link is to the UN Resolution 181, might as well start there, the we can cover the 400 missing Arab villages.

 

[Goober]

I got this far before I stopped reading. Reality doesn't revolve around what you consider thing to be or not to be. lol
Which link is to the UN Resolution 181, might as well start there, the we can cover the 400 missing Arab villages.

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[TenPenny]

From what I can gather, Israel has a right to exist because after WW2, we had to find somewhere to let the Jews live, and they had this book that said they were supposed to live there. So the folks who did live there were given the boot, and when they get upset, Israel is allowed to kill them.

That's the way it works, I guess.

 

[Goober]

From what I can gather, Israel has a right to exist because after WW2, we had to find somewhere to let the Jews live, and they had this book that said they were supposed to live there. So the folks who did live there were given the boot, and when they get upset, Israel is allowed to kill them.

That's the way it works, I guess.

Israel like many other countries came into nationhood after WW2 - as to the killing - Both sides are involved - to state that Israel has some sort of right to kill them is false - are we trying to have a rational and decent discussion or not?

 

[Goober]

MHZ

Population Statistics - Israeli-Palestinian Conflict - ProCon.org

 

[TenPenny]

So, you're saying that Israel does NOT have a right to kill people who threaten it?

 

[Goober]

So, you're saying that Israel does NOT have a right to kill people who threaten it?

First you use upset that allows Israeli's to kill Palestinians - Now you use threaten - My reply was based upon your descriptive" term " Upset "

So to answer your 2nd time around with a completely different word " Threaten" Nations as well as Individuals in most countries have the right to use force to protect themselves from harm - but only the amount of force that is required to stop the threat - example a person comes at you with a knife - you disarm him and as he runs away you chase and stab him to death - That is unreasonable use if force as you are no longer threatened and would be classed as murder - manslaughter in Canada. - Please recall that Isreal like many countries that disappeared thru history have returned -

 

[TenPenny]

Well, that's clear, then.

 

[Goober]

Well, that's clear, then.

Ten Penny
I am not a fan of terms like moving forward - This region has hatred based upon religion, blood feuds, and on and on.

As I understand it the 2 sides - are within a few percentages of closing a deal on land - swaps included - the sticking point is right of return - totally unacceptable to Israel as Jews would become an instant minority and Jerusalem

Then the really hard part begins - What happens if - and I say when Israel is attacked by some splinter group that is against the existence of Israel and would complete a genocide of the Jews if given the opportunity -

This will be much more difficult than reaching a land deal - What comes after will be much more difficult than anything we have seen so far.

 

[Spade]

The creation of Israel was, in part, to expiate the European sins committed during the Shoah. And so, it exists today. Were there Jews before Modern Israel? Of course. Is Israel synonymous with Judaism? Of course not. Would there be Jews if Israel became a secular state or if it existence were no longer predicated on religion? Of course!

But that is not the question, is it? Is the question, "Can Israel use measures to ensure its existence that would be condemned wholeheartedly if it weren't so tied to the Judaic-Christian myths?" I am not so certain.

Do children who have been abused become abusers. Sadly, it happens more often than we wish! Do I have any answers? No, I do not! Are Arabs any different from Israelis or Albertans or Texans? Of course not! Should the Moslems become the new Jews where we'll cry, "One is too many!" I hope, Goober, you would be the first to shout, "No!"

 

[Goober]

The creation of Israel was, in part, to expiate the European sins committed during the Shoah. And so, it exists today. Were there Jews before Modern Israel? Of course. Is Judaism synonymous with Judaism? Of course not. Would there be Jews if Israel became a secular state or if it existence were no longer predicated on religion? Of course!

But that is not the question, is it? Is the question, "Can Israel use measures to ensure its existence that would be condemned wholeheartedly if it weren't so tied to the Judaic-Christian myths?" I am not so certain.

Do children who have been abused become abusers. Sadly, it happens more often than we wish! Do I have any answers? No, I do not! Are Arabs any different from Israelis or Albertans or Texans? Of course not! Should the Moslems become the new Jews where we'll cry, "One is too many!" I hope, Goober, you would be the first to shout, "No!"

Spade -

Indeed you are correct - I hope to have a rational discussion - I believe that the average Palestinian want the same thing that you and I do - I also know that Hamas and other have been instilling hate - rightly in some case - wrongly in more - so it will take generations - meaning more than 8 or 10 to come to a balance of respect -

 

[Cliffy]

What seems to upset a lot of people is that nothing is every said to condemn Israel's actions, but the people fighting for the Palestinians are constantly demonized by the media. It has been established to some degree that both sides are guilty by there is still a pro-Israeli bias going on that does not hold them accountable for their part in the conflict.

I used to be a storg supporter of Israel but I have been disillusioned by the inequities of the media nad people in general. With organizations like the B'nai Brith stifling free speech all over the world, it becomes difficult to continue to support the Israelis.

 

[Goober]

What seems to upset a lot of people is that nothing is every said to condemn Israel's actions, but the people fighting for the Palestinians are constantly demonized by the media. It has been established to some degree that both sides are guilty by there is still a pro-Israeli bias going on that does not hold them accountable for their part in the conflict.

I used to be a storg supporter of Israel but I have been disillusioned by the inequities of the media nad people in general. With organizations like the B'nai Brith stifling free speech all over the world, it becomes difficult to continue to support the Israelis.

Cliffy
I would differ on some points -
The Left Wing in many democracies have targeted Israel with various campaigns. The most hateful and misleading is Anti Apartheid Week

These self same people condemn Israel's every move yet make no mention of Hamas, Hezbollah and other terror groups along with the States that provide millions of dollars in support.

Cliffy a small test shall we say. You are a fair minded person so I would put this to you and my Brother Spade

List the Arab countries in the Mid East and compare each one on an individual basis on the following criteria

The Universal Declaration of Human rights - Signed of by the UN on 10 Dec 1948 - yes I am quite proud that a Canadian played an integral role is the drafting of this document.

The right to practice your religion or not freely

The right to be free from persecution if you are of a minority based upon religion, race

The right to a free trial

The right to speak freely without fear of imprisonment and or torture.

The right to practice a your religion which is a minority in the country you reside in without fear of arrest, imprisonment, torture or a sentence of death.

These are just a few. These questions are asked of you and Spade as I respect both of you - though we may differ from time to time.

The answers as I know they will be thoughtful and honest will in my opinion demonstrate that in Israel more freedom exists for one of these questions I have asked than in all the Arab countries in the Mid East combined -

Is that bias on my part - No - Just what I see. Last but not least -

Yes I agree that Israel has committed War Crimes - I have never denied that fact.

As I am on in years but young at heart - My years are telling me it is time for bed as I start work at 5 am.

 

[TenPenny]

the sticking point is right of return - totally unacceptable to Israel as Jews would become an instant minority and Jerusalem

I think that's part of the problem.

We can take away your land, because we have this book, and you're not allowed to come back, because there are more of you than there are us.

 

[MHz]

MHZ

Population Statistics - Israeli-Palestinian Conflict - ProCon.org

From your link., that means 460400 were made refugees in just 2 years. Those are war crimes that have never been dealt with. Things haven't gotten any better since then.

VI. West Bank & Gaza Strip: Arab Population (1948-2005)
B. Chart

Year​

West Bank​

Gaza Strip​

1948 462,100 82,500
1950* 765,000 240,000
1960 799,000 302,000
1970** 677,000 368,000
1980 964,000 497,000
1985 1,044,000 532,288
1990 1,254,506 642,814
1995 1,626,689 875,231
2000 2,020,298 1,132,063
2005 2,385,615 1,376,289
Sources & Notes: Sources by Year:

1948
Wael R. Ennab

"Population and Demographic Developments in the West Bank and Gaza Strip unitl 1990," Study prepared for the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development (UNCTAD), 28 June 1994 1950 - 1980
Justin McCarthy

"Palestine's Population During the Ottoman and the British Mandate Periods," 2001
1985 - 2005
U.S. Census Bureau

"International Data Base (IDB), Country Summary: West Bank and Gaza Strip," accessed online Sep. 19, 2007
Notes:

*
Increase in the Arab population due to Palestinian Refugees from the territory of the new state of Israel to the West Bank and Gaza Strip during the first Arab-Israeli War (1948-1949) **
Decrease in the Arab population between 1960 and 1970 due to Arab refugees from the 1967 War.

 

[Cliffy]

This conflict has been going on since I was born. The lines between victim and victimizer have been blurred for so long, I cannot tell the difference any more. All I can see is that the western media and governments favour Israel and demonize the Arab world and that I find appalling. Since I was a small child I have not been able to reconcile favouritism of any sort, so I find what is going on over there unacceptable.

I find it difficult to agree with most people as they seem to only get their "information" about what is going on from a biased media and are, for the most part, incapable of researching the subject from all sides and forming their own opinion. They accept the opinions fed to them by the corporate media without question. I have stopped even reading what they have to say and prefer to not stress myself over a situation that is so blurred that it is near impossible to ascertain the truth.

 

[taxslave]

I think that any group of people in an area should have the right to be an independent country if they so desire without fear of annihilation by their neighbours. Nations come and go and only oppressive regimes like communist Russia need fences and guards to keep their own people in.
The middle east is perhaps different in that they are still fighting over who won a battle 2000 years ago and probably will keep on until there is no one left to fight or they runout of religious fanatics.

 

[MHz]

Would you gladly accept a body of Voters that are far from Canada deciding that our version of Reservations is illegal and they are give authority over a few key provinces, lock stock and barrel? The people living there are not going to accept that even if they will be facing a lot of rifles.

 

[petros]

If Israel has the right to kill for their land what is keeping the original North Americans from puttting you or I in a blue UN casket without facing criminal charges?