Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Quote: Originally Posted by MHz

Goober once Muslims control the world will Alberta become Alburkastan? Did you really read all those links you posted, that was a lot of reading if you did.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister

Israel has as much right to exist, and to defend itself, as does any other state. That isn't the issue. This conflict has been going on in various forms not since 1947, but since Old Testament times. That territory has been overrun by Assyrians, Babylonians, Egyptians, Jews, Romans, Phoenicians, Arabs, Christian crusaders... The heart of the current issue is ancient religious texts that promise the land to more than one group, and the human folly that leads people to think that's important. But it's not really even about religion, it's about tribalism, power, and control. And it's all stupid and pointless, murderous disputes ostensibly over minor religious differences and tiny bits of territory. Sometimes I despair for our species.

Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one

I can't speak for Canadah, but his statement "Every time the Israels do something or someone speaks out against them they play the holocaust get out of jail free card" is one line of thought in this book written by Jewish American academic Norman Finklestein:
You can read the book or get a summary by Finklestein himself in this interview:
YouTube - Norman Finkelstein on suffering, morality and justification p1
The Nazi Holocaust was a terrible, horrendous atrocity. Its exploitation for personal profit and as a political weapon to stifle criticism of Israel's war crimes and crimes against humanity is disgusting.
Its not that different than how disgusting you are when you play the anti-Semiticism card against anyone who dares criticize Israel. Abusing anti-Semiticism as a weapon to stifle legitimate criticism of Israel diminishes the meaning of anti-Semiticism which IMO is a real problem.
But you aren't alone. Both anti-semiticism and the holocaust have both been abused recently as a means to discredit the UN's Goldstone Report, which details both Israeli and Palestinian war crimes as well as Israeli crimes against humanity:

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Quote: Originally Posted by Liberalman

You can say that about any country in the world.
Things happen and things change.

The Arabs decided to get rid of Israel in 1967 and lost the war and also lost some of the land.

The Arabs decided not to take in the displaced Palistinian people.

Israel is willing to take them in if they lay down their weapons and give up and live in peace.

The Arabs decided to get rid of Israel in 1967 and lost the war and also lost some of the land.

Following numerous border clashes between Israel and its Arab neighbours, particularly Syria, Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser expelled the United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) from the Sinai Peninsula in May 1967.[8] The peacekeeping force had been stationed there since 1957, following a British-French-Israeli invasion of Egypt which was launched during the Suez Crisis.[9] Egypt amassed 1,000 tanks and nearly 100,000 soldiers on the Israeli border[10] and closed the Straits of Tiran to all ships flying Israeli flags or carrying strategic materials, receiving strong support from other Arab countries.[11] Israel responded with a similar mobilization that included the call up of 70,000 reservists to augment the regular IDF forces.[12]
On June 5, 1967, Israel launched a preemptive attack on Egypt.[13] The Arab countries denied planning to attack Israel, and asserted that Israel's strike was not preemptive but an unwarranted and illegal act of aggression.[14] Jordan, which had signed a mutual defence treaty with Egypt on May 30, then attacked western Jerusalem and Netanya.[15][16][17]...
Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister

Israel has as much right to exist, and to defend itself, as does any other state. That isn't the issue. This conflict has been going on in various forms not since 1947, but since Old Testament times. That territory has been overrun by Assyrians, Babylonians, Egyptians, Jews, Romans, Phoenicians, Arabs, Christian crusaders... The heart of the current issue is ancient religious texts that promise the land to more than one group, and the human folly that leads people to think that's important. But it's not really even about religion, it's about tribalism, power, and control. And it's all stupid and pointless, murderous disputes ostensibly over minor religious differences and tiny bits of territory. Sometimes I despair for our species.

The History of Zionism & Judaism
This text is from an article called "An Open Letter" published in the Jewish magazine, "Hachoma". We think it provides a good historical overview of the history of Zionism and why the Zionist ideology is opposed by religious Orthodox Jews.

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Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one

Your misperception is that this area always was at war and therefore Zionism didn't really change much...

Quote: Originally Posted by Goober

No I did not - I tried to find links that would provide some sort of balance - Tried I did - But I am sure that some links may not be of the best quality -

Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one

That's how the Israeli military treats unarmed non-violent protestors. The soldiers in the video were taken to court but their charges were dismissed and the officer got a promotion.

Following numerous border clashes between Israel and its Arab neighbours, particularly Syria, Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser expelled the United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) from the Sinai Peninsula in May 1967.[8] The peacekeeping force had been stationed there since 1957, following a British-French-Israeli invasion of Egypt which was launched during the Suez Crisis.[9] Egypt amassed 1,000 tanks and nearly 100,000 soldiers on the Israeli border[10] and closed the Straits of Tiran to all ships flying Israeli flags or carrying strategic materials, receiving strong support from other Arab countries.[11] Israel responded with a similar mobilization that included the call up of 70,000 reservists to augment the regular IDF forces.[12]

On June 5, 1967, Israel launched a preemptive attack on Egypt.[13] The Arab countries denied planning to attack Israel, and asserted that Israel's strike was not preemptive but an unwarranted and illegal act of aggression.[14] Jordan, which had signed a mutual defence treaty with Egypt on May 30, then attacked western Jerusalem and Netanya.[15][16][17]...

Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister

Straw man fallacy; I said no such thing.

Quote: Originally Posted by Goober

I am getting the impression that this site is reasonable - Not slanted as many sites are - Your opinion is?

Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister

You give up too easily, Beave. Chaos and genocide (not that I'm agreeing that's an accurate description) happen for reasons.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister

Straw man fallacy; I said no such thing.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister

...This conflict has been going on in various forms not since 1947, but since Old Testament times...

Der Judenstaat (German, "The State of the Jews") is a book written by Theodor Herzl and published in 1896 in Leipzig and Vienna by M. Breitenstein's Verlags-Buchhandlung. It is subtitled with "Versuch einer modernen Lösung der Judenfrage", "Proposal of a modern solution for the Jewish question", and originally called "Address to the Rothschilds" referring to the Rothschild family banking dynasty which was very influential in the realization of a Jewish state in Eretz Yisrael.[1] It is considered one of the most important texts of early Zionism. As expressed in this book, Herzl envisioned the founding of a future independent Jewish state during the 20th century. He argued that the best way to avoid anti-Semitism in Europe was to create this independent Jewish state. Herzl, who had lived as a secular,...

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...Herzl envisioned a Jewish state which combined both a modern Jewish culture with the best of the European heritage. Thus a Palace of Peace would be built in Jerusalem, arbitrating international disputes—but at the same time the Temple would be rebuilt, but on modern principles. He did not envision the Jewish inhabitants of the state being religious, but there is much respect for religion in the public sphere. Many languages are spoken—Hebrew is not the main tongue. Proponents of a Jewish cultural rebirth, such as Ahad Ha'am were critical of Altneuland.
In Altneuland Herzl did not foresee any conflict between Jews and Arabs. One of the main characters in Altneuland is a Haifa engineer, Reshid Bey, who is one of the leaders of the "New Society", is very grateful to his Jewish neighbors for improving the economic condition of Palestine and sees no cause for conflict. All non-Jews have equal rights, and an attempt by a fanatical rabbi to disenfranchise the non-Jewish citizens of their rights fails in the election which is the center of the main political plot of the novel.[8] Herzl also envisioned the future Jewish state to be a "third way" between capitalism and socialism, with a developed welfare program and public ownership of the...

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Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver

Oh no you don't.

Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one

I was refering to this comment:


Which is not true.

Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one

I was refering to this comment:


Which is not true. The Israel/Palestine conflict has only been going on since 1947, when Zionists started an ethnic cleansing war.