Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

View Poll Results: Does Israel have the right to exist with secure borders free from attack
NO	6	14.29%
Yes	31	73.81%
Not sure	5	11.90%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

earth_as_one

#601

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 15th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by selin

yes ,they have right to exist a state not in the earth but in the moon, they shouldnt have neighbours around,

*killing is very tiring ,
*they deserved to be retired.

What about the Israeli people? In general, how do you feel about them? I read that Turkey is a popular Israeli tourist destination.

earth_as_one

#602

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 15th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by MHz

... It is getting more light and more people are getting to read the details themselves. That list is just a summary, the whole list of Arab villages is more than 400 in number.

Yes, the momentum has swung behind the peace movement now. Thanks to Goldstone, AI and other NGO's, the peace movement has irrefutable proof that some Israelis have commited war crimes and crimes against humanity. We have pictures, satellite images, personal testimony by objective third parties... Now its up to us to make sure that people are aware of this information.

Colpy

Conservative

#603

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one

Yes, the momentum has swung behind the peace movement now. Thanks to Goldstone, AI and other NGO's, the peace movement has irrefutable proof that some Israelis have commited war crimes and crimes against humanity. We have pictures, satellite images, personal testimony by objective third parties... Now its up to us to make sure that people are aware of this information.

Delusional.

The peace movement in Israel (the only one that matters) has basically ceased to exist since Arafat spit in the face of peace and launched the intifada instead of negotiating........all done to cover his own corruption.

The vast majority of Israelis see they have no partner in seeking a reasonable peace, and so have resigned themselves to a hard line. The "peace movement" has all but disappeared.....

petros

#604

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Quote:

The peace movement in Israel (the only one that matters) has basically ceased to exist since Arafat spit in the face of peace and launched the intifada instead of negotiating........all done to cover his own corruption.

A right wing Zionist nut job putting holes in Rabin (who realized to get peace they had to face the justice wanted by Palestinians and he agreed it was time to face up and settle up) is what has made peace and more importantly justice impossible to this day.

If Zionism wasn't split into umpteen different freakin factions then maybe Israel wouldn't come off looking like a bunch of inbred hicks.

ironsides

No Party Affiliation

#605

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

MHz: No, you become patriots or rebels. Terrorists are the ones who go out of their way to kill non combatants.

darkbeaver

Republican

#606

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by ironsides

MHz: No, you become patriots or rebels. Terrorists are the ones who go out of their way to kill non combatants.

How about uniformed sanctioned ones who go all the way arround to the other side of the world to murder women and children in their homes with missiles? You have your own definition to comfort you Ironsides. The non combatants killed in this cowardly manner are uncountable.

ironsides

No Party Affiliation

#607

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver

How about uniformed sanctioned ones who go all the way arround to the other side of the world to murder women and children in their homes with missiles? You have your own definition to comfort you Ironsides. The non combatants killed in this cowardly manner are uncountable.

Technology has increased the reach a country has to defend itself. I do have a comfort zone when it comes to attacks against the U.S. It is called zero tolerance, and a just response would be what ever it takes. That means sending in uniformed as well as un-uniformed soldiers. Non combatants usually have plenty of warning to get out of the way, if they know they are in a war.

darkbeaver

Republican

#608

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by ironsides

Technology has increased the reach a country has to defend itself. I do have a comfort zone when it comes to attacks against the U.S. It is called zero tolerance, and a just response would be what ever it takes. That means sending in uniformed as well as un-uniformed soldiers. Non combatants usually have plenty of warning to get out of the way, if they know they are in a war.

So by your own principals every country ever attacked by the USA has the right to defend itself by undeclared preemptive strikes against the USA. Your only defense of this stupid argument is to invoke the god given superiority of a chosen people status.
That is however preposterous, as any Zionist will tell you, that right is reserved for only one people. Logically then you (USA) have to expect attacks from those same agencies holding to the same philosophy. This ultimately means that you are the cause of your own destruction and that it is plain, you have actually been attacking yourselves while you believe yourselves to be attacking the enemy. It is apparent then ,that your "comfort zone", is a room lined with rubber.

MHz

#609

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by ironsides

MHz: No, you become patriots or rebels. Terrorists are the ones who go out of their way to kill non combatants.

I think if you check the actual charges they can be laid for using combat weapons that are excessive for the intended result. ie flattening a whole block where there is known to be more people than just the intended target.
In Afghanistan instead of bombing the whole wedding part you should be able to pick them off individually coming or going rather than having to take out civilians out just because they are there. That means the civilian deaths are intentional.

Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one

Yes, the momentum has swung behind the peace movement now. Thanks to Goldstone, AI and other NGO's, the peace movement has irrefutable proof that some Israelis have commited war crimes and crimes against humanity. We have pictures, satellite images, personal testimony by objective third parties... Now its up to us to make sure that people are aware of this information.

Hopefully the Judges have a lot more information than 'we. can supply. That is wher the changes are going to be made, if there are going to be any. If none are coming that pretty much means the ones being abused can use any method they want since Law has been shown to mean nothing.
That report takes care of abuses there, what other investigations are taking place around the world. For instance why is the US not named as a co-defendant, they have blatantly said they don't care how Israel used the weapons they give them (for free). The really sad part is when they give the munitions number more coverage (media) than the details of who it killed. The deaths are lumped together to minimize that aspect.
I deal with it more like it is an issue that comes up over coffee 'with somebody'. I would happily subscribe to UNTV if I was given the choice of what camera angles I could watch at the Court-house for the upcoming trials (of not just Israel) (zoom in on Tzipi's face during the reading of the charges and count how many time she swallows, lol)

MHz

#610

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by ironsides

Technology has increased the reach a country has to defend itself. I do have a comfort zone when it comes to attacks against the U.S. It is called zero tolerance, and a just response would be what ever it takes. That means sending in uniformed as well as un-uniformed soldiers. Non combatants usually have plenty of warning to get out of the way, if they know they are in a war.

Using your 'get out of the way' means making them a refugee, that makes you a war criminal, see how easy that is?
Really, Israel locks all their gates and then forces Egypt to do the same and then access to 'international water' is cut-off, and then the attacks start. The US does the same in Iraq, a 'troublesome town/city' is surrounded, sealed from escape and then pounded by explosives. (as a lesson)
The very name non-combatant means you shouldn't be killing them at all, let alone in the 1000% more than combatants killed.
Your zero tolerance also goes to include those who would defend their own land against you. While they are standing on their own land you call them terrorists yet if you were doing the same on American soil you are a patriot. lol

EagleSmack

#611

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

I am hearing reports from Dubai of a Hamas leader was assasinated at a Dubai hotel. They had European passports from England, France, Italy, and Ireland. A whole crew of them. Many of their movements were caught on tape and all left Dubai after they killed him.

I wonder who did that?

Colpy

Conservative

#612

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmack

I am hearing reports from Dubai of a Hamas leader was assasinated at a Dubai hotel. They had European passports from England, France, Italy, and Ireland. A whole crew of them. Many of their movements were caught on tape and all left Dubai after they killed him.

I wonder who did that?

Italians.

A fatwa from the Pope.

ironsides

No Party Affiliation

#613

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Now what about the group that started all this in the first place al Qaeda.

Is al Qaeda finally bankrupt?

Desperate for funds, the terrorist group has turned to affiliates that rely more and more on crime.

This by the way is what I consider a terrorist group by definition.

--

darkbeaver

Republican

#614

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Al-Qaeda is an invented boogy-man Ironsides. You must be one of the last humans on the planet to believe that crap.

ironsides

No Party Affiliation

#615

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver

Al-Qaeda is an invented boogy-man Ironsides. You must be one of the last humans on the planet to believe that crap.

Guess you have never came face to face with the boogie men. They do exist and they are

MHz

#616

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

What was being alluded to is they are a fictious enemy of the US. The US gave them the acid they were throwing in people's faces as far back as the early 70's.

ironsides

No Party Affiliation

#617

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by MHz

Using your 'get out of the way' means making them a refugee, that makes you a war criminal, see how easy that is?
Really, Israel locks all their gates and then forces Egypt to do the same and then access to 'international water' is cut-off, and then the attacks start. The US does the same in Iraq, a 'troublesome town/city' is surrounded, sealed from escape and then pounded by explosives. (as a lesson)
The very name non-combatant means you shouldn't be killing them at all, let alone in the 1000% more than combatants killed.
Your zero tolerance also goes to include those who would defend their own land against you. While they are standing on their own land you call them terrorists yet if you were doing the same on American soil you are a patriot. lol

Nobody is forcing Egypt to do anything, as of right now, people of Gaza City can move out into any other city in the strip they want. No reason to stay in the so called hell hole you describe. Cannot say they have not been warned. By the way, those who stand and fight are patriots, and cowards for using their own people as shields.

MHz

#618

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmack

I am hearing reports from Dubai of a Hamas leader was assasinated at a Dubai hotel. They had European passports from England, France, Italy, and Ireland. A whole crew of them. Many of their movements were caught on tape and all left Dubai after they killed him.

I wonder who did that?

How did they leave?? In a car headed north ???

ironsides

No Party Affiliation

#619

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by MHz

What was being alluded to is they are a fictious enemy of the US. The US gave them the acid they were throwing in people's faces as far back as the early 70's.

Of course we did.

EagleSmack

#620

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by MHz

How did they leave?? In a car headed north ???

Same way they came in...by plane.

Goober

Free Thinker

#621

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Open question toEAO and MHZ

Were you guys at this conference -
I am sure you would have been welcome

Conference on Muslims in the media too hot for some of its speakers

Stouffville, Ont. -- Western media have a "spiteful policy" toward Iran of inventing "fraudulent" news to "increase false national expectation" and "encourage disturbance," according to the cultural attaché in the Embassy of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Hamid Mohammadi said media deception has caused hatred and fear of Muslims by presenting the "false belief that religion is incapable of running a country" and that Iran is therefore illegitimate. He said the result has been political "position changing" by Western countries against Muslims. He quoted an "American thinker," whose name did not come clearly through his strong accent, to the effect that "future wars are in the hands of the media, and their words are more effective than bullets.

"Somehow, his brief remarks were among the least controversial at a conference about the "Media War on Islam" on Sunday at a Toronto-area Islamic centre,
in which the Christmas Day underwear bomber was described as the tool of an Israeli plot; Barack Obama was referred to as "Mr. Black Man"; al-Qaeda was called "the figment of the imagination of the West"; and a video was shown that mocked 9/11 by putting the Muppet Show logo over slow-motion footage of the second plane's impact, with screams of terror for audio.

With a police presence and protesters outside, the atmosphere was too hot for some of the speakers advertised in promotional material.

Lawyer Khurrum Awan, who brought hate speech complaints against Maclean's magazine with the Canadian Islamic Congress, agreed to speak some time ago, and called it "an error on my part" that he only learned about the other speakers a couple of days before the event. He said he cancelled primarily for fear that his presence could seem to justify the actions of the government of Iran, including its hosting of a 2006 conference on Holocaust denial.

Two leaders of the Canadian Arab Federation, Khaled Mouammar and Ali Mallah, did not respond yesterday to requests for comment about why they did not speak as advertised. Neither did James Clark, a prominent anti-war protester.

Inside the hall, among the audience of 300 or so, organizer Zafar Bangash welcomed his Iranian guest by quipping that, even with freedom of assembly, the protesters only managed to summon a "pathetic" two dozen to the rural roadside gates of the Islamic Society of York Region.

Mr. Bangash also held up for the audience a clear plastic bag full of what he said were burned pages of the Koran, rescued recently from the parking lot of a nearby plaza after protesters -- the same ones who were outside, he said -- set the holy book on fire.

He said he told police that if protesters were to trespass, "I guarantee nothing," to which the audience responded with chants of "Allahu Akbar."

The program started with a prayer from the Koran, sung beautifully by a boy in Arabic, and translated to English by another boy who, by his tone, clearly understood its message about the punishment of cities for their depravity.

In his speech, Mr. Bangash claimed the "Israeli-owned" International Consultants on Targeted Security runs security at Amsterdam airport, and therefore
"the Israelis are in control of security," and they allowed the alleged underwear bomber, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, to board a Detroit-bound plane.

The company, on its website, states it is "not connected in any way" to security at Amsterdam Schiphol Airport.

An Iranian propaganda video, set to inspirational music, was a rapid-fire montage of still photos and videos, with militaristic and industrial themes, including footage of scientists at work, and a diagram of atoms labelled U238, the common naturally occurring kind of uranium; and U235, the fissile kind used in bombs.

The female narrator spoke about Iran's free elections, equality of women, and its "successful approach to the nuclear issue.

"The keynote speaker, given the absences, was Michael Keefer, a professor of literary theory at the University of Guelph, who said that all mainstream news media is "systematically fake" because "news editors have internalized the values of their advertisers."

He described 9/11 as a "planned demolition" run by Americans, and the Toronto 18 bomb plot, which led to convictions and guilty pleas, as a "police frame-up" over "nothing of significance."

He also offered a curious piece of gossip that shows Conrad Black's influence on Canadian media lingers long into his absence.

Begging the apology of Mohamed Elmasry, his partner at the Canadian Charger alternative media website, Prof. Keefer told the story of Mr. Elmasry writing to Lord Black to protest treatment of Islam in his many newspapers."Why don't you buzz off," was how Prof. Keefer paraphrased the handwritten reply.
"If you want a newspaper to reflect your opinions, why don't you start one of your own?"

"We have attempted to do just that," Prof. Keefer said.

The Canadian Charger is also the publisher of Prof. Keefer's forthcoming book, Anti-Semitism, Real and Imagined.

Goober

Free Thinker

#622

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one

Yes, the momentum has swung behind the peace movement now. Thanks to Goldstone, AI and other NGO's, the peace movement has irrefutable proof that some Israelis have commited war crimes and crimes against humanity. We have pictures, satellite images, personal testimony by objective third parties... Now its up to us to make sure that people are aware of this information.

EAO
You still have not answered the question on why you are unsure that Israel has a right to exist - are you searching the Web for something that you can use as an answer - ensuring that it is not Anti Semitic of course

And what about the Jewish population of Israel - Do you have a solution for that?

Cliffy

Free Thinker

#623

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Why would you take exception to the truth? Most of what is said in that article is true as far as I can see - our media is nothing but a propaganda machine, not unlike theirs and has been manufacturing fear and hatred for decades. Their response is to be expected,a natural response to being demonized by our media. You can't really believe either side in this propaganda war.

Last edited by Cliffy; Feb 16th, 2010 at 07:29 PM..

Goober

Free Thinker

#624

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

Why would you take exception to the truth? Most of what is said in that article is true as far as I can see - our media is nothing but a propaganda machine, not unlike theirs and has been manufacturing fear and hatred for decades. Their response is to be expected,a natural response to being demonized by our media. You can't really believe either side in this propaganda war.

Alice thru the rabit hole is also fact - Right.

Cliffy

Free Thinker

#625

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Goober

Alice thru the rabit hole is also fact - Right.

You obviously don't understand the history of western interference in middle eastern politics and the true reason there is unrest and animosity over there. The theological thugs came to power because the west replaced their democratically elected government with the brutal dictatorship of the Shaw. I don't understand why that escapes you. It is pretty simple actually. It was a natural response. Armed insurrection always brings about a more brutal form of governance. Just look to the US and their revolution.

The US has been pissed off ever since their poster boy got kicked out of Iran and has waged a hate campaign ever since. You chose to believe their BS. That is your problem. I choose to believe neither side, as both are reactionary morons in a power struggle over oil, the use of which I would only be thrilled to see come to an end.

Goober

Free Thinker

#626

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

You obviously don't understand the history of western interference in middle eastern politics and the true reason there is unrest and animosity over there. The theological thugs came to power because the west replaced their democratically elected government with the brutal dictatorship of the Shaw. I don't understand why that escapes you. It is pretty simple actually. It was a natural response. Armed insurrection always brings about a more brutal form of governance. Just look to the US and their revolution.

The US has been pissed off ever since their poster boy got kicked out of Iran and has waged a hate campaign ever since. You chose to believe their BS. That is your problem. I choose to believe neither side, as both are reactionary morons in a power struggle over oil, the use of which I would only be thrilled to see come to an end.

Cliffy
Simple questions and answers -
Agree or disagree

Somehow, his brief remarks were among the least controversial at a conference about the "Media War on Islam" on Sunday at a Toronto-area Islamic centre, in which the Christmas Day underwear bomber was described as the tool of an Israeli plot; Barack Obama was referred to as "Mr. Black Man"; al-Qaeda was called "the figment of the imagination of the West"; and a video was shown that mocked 9/11 by putting the Muppet Show logo over slow-motion footage of the second plane's impact, with screams of terror for audio.The Christmas day Bomber was an Israeli plot -

Agree - Disagree

Lawyer Khurrum Awan, who brought hate speech complaints against Maclean's magazine with the Canadian Islamic Congress, agreed to speak some time ago, and called it "an error on my part" that he only learned about the other speakers a couple of days before the event. He said he cancelled primarily for fear that his presence could seem to justify the actions of the government of Iran, including its hosting of a 2006 conference on Holocaust denial.

In his speech, Mr. Bangash claimed the "Israeli-owned" International Consultants on Targeted Security runs security at Amsterdam airport, and therefore "the Israelis are in control of security," and they allowed the alleged underwear bomber, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, to board a Detroit-bound plane.

The company, on its website, states it is "not connected in any way" to security at Amsterdam Schiphol Airport.

Agree or Disagree

An Iranian propaganda video, set to inspirational music, was a rapid-fire montage of still photos and videos, with militaristic and industrial themes, including footage of scientists at work, and a diagram of atoms labelled U238, the common naturally occurring kind of uranium; and U235, the fissile kind used in bombs.The female narrator spoke about Iran's free elections, equality of women, and its "successful approach to the nuclear issue."

Agree or Disagree

Michael Keefer, a professor of literary theory at the University of Guelph, and the Toronto 18 bomb plot, which led to convictions and guilty pleas, as a "police frame-up" over "nothing of significance."

Agree or Disagree

MHz

#627

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by ironsides

Of course we did.

You really did. --
"Though "Taliban" or "AGEs"--antigovernment elements-- are the catchall phrases used to describe Afghan insurgents, in provinces near Kabul like Logar, Wardak and Nangarhar, most of the guerrillas are actually members of Hezb-e-Islami, an old mujahedeen party led by Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. A pathologically ruthless commander, Hekmatyar got his start throwing acid at unveiled women when he was an engineering student in Kabul. In 1975 he formed Hezb-e-Islami with Pakistani support. First he fought the nationalist President Daoud Khan; then, after the Communist coup in 1978, he received more than $600 million in American military aid to fight the Russians."

Cliffy

Free Thinker

#628

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 16th, 2010

Goober,
"I choose to believe neither side, as both are reactionary morons in a power struggle over oil,"

The stance on both sides are buried in half truths and BS.

ironsides

No Party Affiliation

#629

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 17th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by MHz

You really did. --
"Though "Taliban" or "AGEs"--antigovernment elements-- are the catchall phrases used to describe Afghan insurgents, in provinces near Kabul like Logar, Wardak and Nangarhar, most of the guerrillas are actually members of Hezb-e-Islami, an old mujahedeen party led by Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. A pathologically ruthless commander, Hekmatyar got his start throwing acid at unveiled women when he was an engineering student in Kabul. In 1975 he formed Hezb-e-Islami with Pakistani support. First he fought the nationalist President Daoud Khan; then, after the Communist coup in 1978, he received more than $600 million in American military aid to fight the Russians."

Of course he received money from us to fight the Russians, at that time we were in a hot/cold war with the Russians busy draining their economy. The acid idea I'm pretty sure was his.

Goober

Free Thinker

#630

Re: Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Feb 17th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

Goober,
"I choose to believe neither side, as both are reactionary morons in a power struggle over oil,"

The stance on both sides are buried in half truths and BS.

Cliffy
Not much of an answer -
Do you believe that the Iranian Elections were free and fair

Do you believe that the Toronto 18 was nothing but a frame job by Police

Do you believe that the Christmas Day Bomber was a tool of the Israeli's

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