The Pictures of War You Aren’t Supposed to See

JBeee

Time Out
Jun 1, 2007
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Jan 4, 2010

[FONT=georgia, times new roman, times, serif]By Chris Hedges

War is brutal and impersonal. It mocks the fantasy of individual heroism and the absurdity of utopian goals like democracy. In an instant, industrial warfare can kill dozens, even hundreds of people, who never see their attackers. The power of these industrial weapons is indiscriminate and staggering. They can take down apartment blocks in seconds, burying and crushing everyone inside. They can demolish villages and send tanks, planes and ships up in fiery blasts. The wounds, for those who survive, result in terrible burns, blindness, amputation and lifelong pain and trauma.

No one returns the same from such warfare. And once these weapons are employed all talk of human rights is a farce.

In Peter van Agtmael’s “2nd Tour Hope I don’t Die” and Lori Grinker’s “Afterwar: Veterans From a World in Conflict,” two haunting books of war photographs, we see pictures of war which are almost always hidden from public view. These pictures are shadows, for only those who go to and suffer from war can fully confront the visceral horror of it, but they are at least an attempt to unmask war’s savagery.

“Over ninety percent of this soldier’s body was burned when a roadside bomb hit his vehicle, igniting the fuel tank and burning two other soldiers to death,” reads the caption in Agtmael’s book next to a photograph of the bloodied body of a soldier in an operating room. “His camouflage uniform dangled over the bed, ripped open by the medics who had treated him on the helicopter. Clumps of his skin had peeled away, and what was left of it was translucent. He was in and out of consciousness, his eyes stabbing open for a few seconds. As he was lifted from the stretcher to the ER bed, he screamed ‘Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy,’ then ‘Put me to sleep, please put me to sleep.’ There was another photographer in the ER, and he leaned his camera over the heads of the medical staff to get an overhead shot. The soldier yelled, ‘Get that ****ing camera out of my face.’ Those were his last words. I visited his grave one winter afternoon six months later,” Agtmael writes, “and the scene of his death is never far from my thoughts.”

“There were three of us inside, and the jeep caught fire,” Israeli soldier Yossi Arditi, quoted in Grinker’s book, says of the moment when a Molotov cocktail exploded in his vehicle. “The fuel tank was full and it was about to explode, my skin was hanging from my arms and face—but I didn’t lose my head. I knew nobody could get inside to help me, that my only way out was through the fire to the doors. I wanted to take my gun, but I couldn’t touch it because my hands were burning.” [To see long excerpts from “Afterwar” and to read an introduction written by Chris Hedges, click here.]
Arditi spent six months in the hospital. He had surgery every two or three months, about 20 operations, over the next three years.

“People who see me, see what war really does,” he says.

Filmic and most photographic images of war are shorn of the heart-pounding fear, awful stench, deafening noise and exhaustion of the battlefield. Such images turn confusion and chaos, the chief element of combat, into an artful war narrative. They turn war into porn. Soldiers and Marines, especially those who have never seen war, buy cases of beer and watch movies like “Platoon,” movies meant to denounce war, and as they do so revel in the despicable power of the weapons shown. The reality of violence is different. Everything formed by violence is senseless and useless. It exists without a future. It leaves behind nothing but death, grief and destruction.

Chronicles of war, such as these two books, that eschew images and scenes of combat begin to capture war’s reality. War’s effects are what the state and the press, the handmaiden of the war makers, work hard to keep hidden. If we really saw war, what war does to young minds and bodies, it would be harder to embrace the myth of war. If we had to stand over the mangled corpses of the eight schoolchildren killed in Afghanistan a week ago and listen to the wails of their parents we would not be able to repeat clichés about liberating the women of Afghanistan or bringing freedom to the Afghan people. This is why war is carefully sanitized. This is why we are given war’s perverse and dark thrill but are spared from seeing war’s consequences. The mythic visions of war keep it heroic and entertaining. And the press is as guilty as Hollywood. During the start of the Iraq war, television reports gave us the visceral thrill of force and hid from us the effects of bullets, tank rounds, iron fragmentation bombs and artillery rounds. We tasted a bit of war’s exhilaration, but were protected from seeing what war actually does.

The wounded, the crippled and the dead are, in this great charade, swiftly carted off stage. They are war’s refuse. We do not see them. We do not hear them. They are doomed, like wandering spirits, to float around the edges of our consciousness, ignored, even reviled. The message they tell is too painful for us to hear. We prefer to celebrate ourselves and our nation by imbibing the myth of glory, honor, patriotism and heroism, words that in combat become empty and meaningless. And those whom fate has decreed must face war’s effects often turn and flee.

Saul Alfaro, who lost his legs in the war in El Salvador, speaks in Grinker’s book about the first and final visit from his girlfriend as he lay in an army hospital bed.

“She had been my girlfriend in the military and we had planned to be married,” he says. “But when she saw me in the hospital—I don’t know exactly what happened, but later they told me when she saw me she began to cry. Afterwards, she ran away and never came back.”

The public manifestations of gratitude are reserved for veterans who dutifully read from the script handed to them by the state. The veterans trotted out for viewing are those who are compliant and palatable, those we can stand to look at without horror, those who are willing to go along with the lie that war is about patriotism and is the highest good. “Thank you for your service,” we are supposed to say. They are used to perpetuate the myth. We are used to honor it.

Gary Zuspann, who lives in a special enclosed environment in his parent’s home in Waco, Texas, suffering from Gulf War syndrome, speaks in Grinker’s book of feeling like “a prisoner of war” even after the war had ended.

“Basically they put me on the curb and said, okay, fend for yourself,” he says in the book. “I was living in a fantasy world where I thought our government cared about us and they take care of their own. I believed it was in my contract, that if you’re maimed or wounded during your service in war, you should be taken care of. Now I’m angry.”

I went back to Sarajevo after covering the 1990s war for The New York Times and found hundreds of cripples trapped in rooms in apartment blocks with no elevators and no wheelchairs. Most were young men, many without limbs, being cared for by their elderly parents, the glorious war heroes left to rot.

Despair and suicide grip survivors. More Vietnam veterans committed suicide after the war than were killed during it. The inhuman qualities drilled into soldiers and Marines in wartime defeat them in peacetime. This is what Homer taught us in “The Iliad,” the great book on war, and “The Odyssey,” the great book on the long journey to recovery by professional killers. Many never readjust. They cannot connect again with wives, children, parents or friends, retreating into personal hells of self-destructive anguish and rage.

“They program you to have no emotion—like if somebody sitting next to you gets killed you just have to carry on doing your job and shut up,” Steve Annabell, a British veteran of the Falklands War, says to Grinker. “When you leave the service, when you come back from a situation like that, there’s no button they can press to switch your emotions back on. So you walk around like a zombie. They don’t deprogram you. If you become a problem they just sweep you under the carpet.”

“To get you to join up they do all these advertisements—they show people skiing down mountains and doing great things—but they don’t show you getting shot at and people with their legs blown off or burning to death,” he says. “They don’t show you what really happens. It’s just bull****. And they never prepare you for it. They can give you all the training in the world, but it’s never the same as the real thing.”

Those with whom veterans have most in common when the war is over are often those they fought.

“Nobody comes back from war the same,” says Horacio Javier Benitez, who fought the British in the Falklands and is quoted in Grinker’s book. “The person, Horacio, who was sent to war, doesn’t exist anymore. It’s hard to be enthusiastic about normal life; too much seems inconsequential. You contend with craziness and depression.”

“Many who served in the Malvinas,” he says, using the Argentine name of the islands, “committed suicide, many of my friends.”

“I miss my family,” reads a wall graffito captured in one of Agtmael’s photographs. “Please God forgive the lives I took and let my family be happy if I don’t go home again.”

Next to the plea someone had drawn an arrow toward the words and written in thick, black marker “Fag!!!”

Look beyond the nationalist cant used to justify war. Look beyond the seduction of the weapons and the pornography of violence. Look beyond Barack Obama’s ridiculous rhetoric about finishing the job or fighting terror. Focus on the evil of war.

War begins by calling for the annihilation of the others but ends ultimately in self-annihilation. It corrupts souls and mutilates bodies. It destroys homes and villages and murders children on their way to school. It grinds into the dirt all that is tender and beautiful and sacred. It empowers human deformities—warlords, Shiite death squads, Sunni insurgents, the Taliban, al-Qaida and our own killers—who can speak only in the despicable language of force. War is a scourge. It is a plague. It is industrial murder. And before you support war, especially the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, look into the hollow eyes of the men, women and children who know it.
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Mowich

Hall of Fame Member
Dec 25, 2005
16,649
998
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Eagle Creek
And wouldn't the greater evil be to allow innocents to be slaughtered in the name of fanaticism? Do we just walk away from the cries of people who are subjected to torture by their own countrymen because they dare to believe in freedom, democracy, and the right to their own form of religion?

Yes, war is evil. Given that, maybe we should be discussing better ways to avoid war, or wars fought on paper not in blood - were that possible. Until then, I will remain a supporter of our Canadian Armed Forces.
 

mt_pockets1000

Council Member
Jun 22, 2006
1,292
29
48
Edmonton
What are we, the conscience of the world? Yeah, I'd be pissed if I knew my neighbor was beating his wife. Don't know if I'd go in with guns a blazin' though.

While the Taliban have some very strange and questionable policies around women's rights, that is not the reason our troops are over there. The original intent was to find Bin Laden and disrupt the Al Qaeda operations in that country. No Bin Laden to be found and the Taliban seem to be growing in strength. And the poppy industry continues to thrive. So we need a new agenda to justify our reason for being there? Ah yes, women's rights. Let's jump on that bandwagon.

What about Darfur? The human rights violations in that country are some of the worse on the planet. Where's our indignation over that? You can't be selective when it comes to human rights.

You know what I think? You may say "who cares what you think". Well, I'm gonna tell you anyway. I think we should be focusing on the immigration problem right here in our backyard. There are upwards of 30,000 illegal immigrants in this country and most of them have it in their twisted minds to disrupt, antagonize and create major disturbances in our cities and towns. While our troops are fighting the valiant fight overseas the enemy has crept in the backdoor and are ready to do some real damage in the coming years. And not just the illegals but some of the legitimate immigrants as well.

Bring our troops home, slam the doors shut on immigration from the trouble spots of the world and sit back to wait for the surge coming our way.

Ah, the bravery of being out of range.....
 

Mowich

Hall of Fame Member
Dec 25, 2005
16,649
998
113
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Eagle Creek
What are we, the conscience of the world? Yeah, I'd be pissed if I knew my neighbor was beating his wife. Don't know if I'd go in with guns a blazin' though.

While the Taliban have some very strange and questionable policies around women's rights, that is not the reason our troops are over there. The original intent was to find Bin Laden and disrupt the Al Qaeda operations in that country. No Bin Laden to be found and the Taliban seem to be growing in strength. And the poppy industry continues to thrive. So we need a new agenda to justify our reason for being there? Ah yes, women's rights. Let's jump on that bandwagon.

What about Darfur? The human rights violations in that country are some of the worse on the planet. Where's our indignation over that? You can't be selective when it comes to human rights.

You know what I think? You may say "who cares what you think". Well, I'm gonna tell you anyway. I think we should be focusing on the immigration problem right here in our backyard. There are upwards of 30,000 illegal immigrants in this country and most of them have it in their twisted minds to disrupt, antagonize and create major disturbances in our cities and towns. While our troops are fighting the valiant fight overseas the enemy has crept in the backdoor and are ready to do some real damage in the coming years. And not just the illegals but some of the legitimate immigrants as well.

Bring our troops home, slam the doors shut on immigration from the trouble spots of the world and sit back to wait for the surge coming our way.

Ah, the bravery of being out of range.....

Actually, I do care about what you think, MT. I think you make some very valid points, though I don't completely agree with stopping all immgrants from coming to Canada.

Bringing the troops home before the UN mandate for their deployment is up, is not on the radar.

Indeed, the role of armchair quarterback is an easy one.
 

countryboy

Traditionally Progressive
Nov 30, 2009
3,686
39
48
BC
What are we, the conscience of the world? Yeah, I'd be pissed if I knew my neighbor was beating his wife. Don't know if I'd go in with guns a blazin' though.

While the Taliban have some very strange and questionable policies around women's rights, that is not the reason our troops are over there. The original intent was to find Bin Laden and disrupt the Al Qaeda operations in that country. No Bin Laden to be found and the Taliban seem to be growing in strength. And the poppy industry continues to thrive. So we need a new agenda to justify our reason for being there? Ah yes, women's rights. Let's jump on that bandwagon.

What about Darfur? The human rights violations in that country are some of the worse on the planet. Where's our indignation over that? You can't be selective when it comes to human rights.

You know what I think? You may say "who cares what you think". Well, I'm gonna tell you anyway. I think we should be focusing on the immigration problem right here in our backyard. There are upwards of 30,000 illegal immigrants in this country and most of them have it in their twisted minds to disrupt, antagonize and create major disturbances in our cities and towns. While our troops are fighting the valiant fight overseas the enemy has crept in the backdoor and are ready to do some real damage in the coming years. And not just the illegals but some of the legitimate immigrants as well.

Bring our troops home, slam the doors shut on immigration from the trouble spots of the world and sit back to wait for the surge coming our way.

Ah, the bravery of being out of range.....

You raise a good point about immigration there. I didn't know we had that many illegals in Canada, but I'll take your word for it. I do agree with you that protecting home turf should be no. 1 on the agenda, at all times. Evidence that we don't currently do that? The latest security incident in the House of Commons!

I also know Canada is not "lily white" when it comes to 'human rights', even though we have a good Charter in place. As the old saying goes, 'it looks good on paper' and I've been told it is satisfactory with 70% of Canadians. But, the reality is, there is a pile of human suffering going on in Canada right now. There are people who can't afford to heat their homes properly and...well, there are some WITHOUT homes too! We have a pile of problems in the Aboriginal communities throughout Canada and I don't see good, thorough solutions emerging to address them. And there are many more examples of how we're not 'putting our money where our mouth is', domestically speaking.

The overseas mission in question is coming under a lot of scrutiny. I do always support our military in whatever the government assigns them to do, but I am beginning to wonder if the current mission is the correct/effective/results-getting way to accomplish it. Our soldiers are doing a terrific job over there, but they are getting killed doing it. That is very disturbing to me, to put it mildly.

We have said we're going to bring them home in 2011, and I know that is somewhat 'political' in nature, and necessarily so. But, I don't agree with informing the bad guys about future plans and deadlines - unwise strategy in business and war.

So yeah, I guess I am questioning why we're there now. We can't save the world as we're simply not big enough to do that job.

I'd rather see us - as a country - get our act together, clean up our own various backyards, and make Canada a better place to live.

I just don't know how we'd ever get to that point - we are a very divided country in more ways than simple regional/geographical differences. From what I've seen and heard, we all have very strong mindsets on what's right and wrong, and I don't see a strong sense of compromise, teamwork, or just plain 'gettin' along' to help us move in one direction. That applies to both 'common people' and our politicians. We're all just so bloody right in our own minds, and anyone that disagrees with 'me' is just a fool whose opinion isn't worth spit. Nice.

Stacked on top of that is a complete lack of vision for the country. What do we want Canada to be? What should it look like in 5, 10, 15, or 20 years? Where are we going? Nah, we don't have time for all that stuff...we're too busy fighting over individual issues that we don't have time to consider the 'big picture.' And there is no politician that could come forth and lead us 'into the promised land' because we would kill them instantly, the moment they utter something that 'we' disagree with.

And that seems to me to be our biggest challenge of all. 'We' are the problem.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
If you knew your nieghbour was beating his wife would you intervene or ignore it?

If you knew your nieghbour was using DU and Drones against civilians in Pakistan,Iraq and Yemen and planning the destruction of Iran after just completely destroying the culture and infrastructure of the country Iraq and shooting bound children in the head would you intervene or would you support it to save your own, life I guess you might call it?
 

Kakato

Time Out
Jun 10, 2009
4,929
21
38
Alberta/N.W.T./Sask/B.C
If you knew your nieghbour was using DU and Drones against civilians in Pakistan,Iraq and Yemen and planning the destruction of Iran after just completely destroying the culture and infrastructure of the country Iraq and shooting bound children in the head would you intervene or would you support it to save your own, life I guess you might call it?

Depleted uranium,your getting into foiler territory now.:roll:
Who's planning the destruction of Iran? With the way the people are rising up against the government and scholars and professors denouncing the ruling regime I would say that it sure as hell isnt us,those people arent protesting American or nato involvement,their protesting against their government.


Shooting bound children in the head? Is that just something you threw out here to bolster your agenda or are you going to verify that with some facts?
Same with drones against civilians,how do you know they were civilians?


I know I can post some articles complete with pictures of women getting buried to the neck and then stoned to death,the articles come right from their media.
They dont hide the fact and sorry but some of us cant sit around and let it happen.
 

DaSleeper

Trolling Hypocrites
May 27, 2007
33,676
1,665
113
Northern Ontario,
About the List of Terrorist Attacks



This list of terrorist attacks committed by Muslims since 9/11/01 (a rate of about three or four a day) is incomplete because only a small percentage of attacks were picked up by international news sources, even those resulting in multiple loss of life.

These are not incidents involving nominal Muslims killing for money or personal pride. This is not ordinary crime. We include violent incidents that can reasonably be determined to have been committed out of religious duty - as interpreted by the perpetrator.

We usually list only attacks that result in loss of life (with a handful of exceptions). In several cases, the victims are undercounted because deaths from trauma caused by the Islamists may occur in later days, despite the best efforts of medical personnel to keep the victims alive.

We usually don't include incidents related to combat, such as in Iraq and Afghanistan, unless it involves particularly heinous terrorist tactics. Unprovoked sniper, drive-by or roadside bombing attacks on military personnel serving normal police duties are sometimes included depending on the circumstances.

We acknowledge that a handful of incidents on the list may not fit the traditional definition of 'terror attack.' A small portion, for example, are of honor killings - although we very rarely include those in which a woman is killed by their husband, since this is often indistinguishable from a crime of passion (barring explicit circumstances).

Unfortunately, this list of Muslim terrorist attacks barely scratches the surface of atrocities committed in the name of Islam that occur world-wide each day. For that reason, we don't tally up the dead and dismembered, except on a weekly and monthly basis.

As an example, most news articles on the violence in Southern Thailand note that about 900 people were killed in 2005. We estimate that 150 of these deaths are of the Islamic militants themselves, which means they killed some 750 people that year. But TROP only recorded the deaths of 314. We underreported more than half in a country with a decent news infrastructure. Imagine what we don't catch in the Sudan, where the toll runs into the hundreds of thousands!

The ridiculous level of violence that Islam serves up to the world makes it impossible to compile a complete list.

The incidents are collected each day from public news sources. There is no rumor or word-of-mouth involved. Although every attempt is made to be accurate and consistent, we are not making the claim that this is a scientific undertaking.

No other religion inspires the sort of terrorism that the "Religion of Peace" produces. We hope that this list offers a dose of perspective against so-called "Islamophobia" and other Muslim complaints that are petty by comparison. As the site Bare Naked Islam puts it, "It isn't Islamophobia when they really are trying to kill you."

Who knows - perhaps one day Muslims will have a change of heart and decide to take the sort of action that one might expect of people who believe that it really is wrong to kill in the name of their religion. We'll know when this happens because it will be when Islam exchanges self-absorbed whining for true contrition and an end to the violence.

Go back to the List of Islamic Terrorist Attacks
Islam: Making a True Difference in the World
 

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
9,949
21
38
kelowna bc
The world of science advances more quickly during a time of war than at any other time. No I don't think war is a good thing but living like a Muslim, going back to
the middle ages when people were killed for what they thought let alone what they
did. Yes the misery of war is powerful. During World War Two, they had flame throwers, and some of the deadliest bombs the world had ever known. Then came
the bomb of course and that changed everything.
The world will continue to fight and we will see even more terrible weapons in the
future. We as a society must defend ourselves, our culture is under attack and most
people don't understand that, but the soon will. Fear mongering is a relative term.
We have people in North America, complaining we are infringing on their human
rights , and we are poking fun at their religion etc. Well these same people who are
complaining belong to a religion that believes anyone who is not of their faith,
is an infidel and deserves to be killed. If they had power there would be no
democracy and no freedom as you know it. This is the same cause as when we
were fighting the fascist during world war two, and that will become apparent in
the very near future.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
...Civilians, including women and children, were detained in degrading conditions, deprived of
food, water and access to sanitary facilities, and exposed to the elements in January without any
shelter....

...had dug out sandpits in which ... men, women and children were detained. ... tanks and artillery positions were
located inside the sandpits and around them and fired from next to the detainees....

...The razing of farmland and the destruction of greenhouses are expected to further worsen
food insecurity despite the increased quantities of food items allowed into ... since the
beginning of the military operations. Dependence on food assistance increases. Levels of
stunting and thinness in children and of anaemia prevalence in children and pregnant women were worrying even before the military operations....

...20 per cent of children in the ... suffer from post-traumatic
stress disorders....

...According to estimates, as at
1 June 2009, there were approximately 8,100 ... “political prisoners” in detention in ..., including 60 women and 390 children...


...The .... had requested safe passage for ambulances to access this neighbourhood
[...] since 3 January but it only received permission to do so

from the ... during the afternoon of 7 January.... ...The ... team found four small children next to their dead mothers in one
of the houses. They were too weak to stand up on their own.
One man was also found

alive, too weak to stand up. In all there were at least 12 corpses lying on mattresses...

...The group of women was headed by ... and her 23-year-old neighbour
and relative ...., both carrying white flags... ...The soldiers had made a hole
in the wall of the first floor of the house, giving them a good view down the alley into which the
group of women and children were advancing. When ... was about 200 metres
from ...’s house, a shot fired from that house hit her in the temple (she had just
turned her head towards her neighbour next to her to encourage her). ... fell to
the ground; ... was struck in her leg. This single shot was followed by concentrated
gunfire, which forced the group of women and children to scramble back...

...At around 4.30 p.m., a white phosphorous shell came through the ceiling into the room where they were

sheltering. According to family members who survived,
438 there was intense fire and white smoke in

the room, the walls of which were glowing red. Five members of the family died immediately or
within a short period: ... (aged 45) and four of his children, sons
... (aged 14), ... (aged 12) and ... (aged 8 ), and daughter ... (aged
18 months). ... and ... were decapitated, the others burnt to


death...

...the mother and two children turn left instead of right after having walked between 100 and 200 metres from their

house. They thereby cross a “red line” established by the ... unit (of whose existence the
mother and children could have no knowledge). ... marksman on the roof of the house


they had just left opens fire on the woman and her two children, killing them....

...was struck by a projectile fired from an F-16 aircraft which killed 22 members
of the family. Twelve of those killed were children under 10...


...He described how ... soldiers
fired at them, including women and children carrying white flags...



...The soldiers deliberately subjected civilians, including women and children, to cruel,
inhuman and degrading treatment throughout their ordeal in order to terrorize,

intimidate and humiliate them...

...Men, women and children were held close to artillery and tank positions, where

constant shelling and firing was taking place, thus not only exposing them to danger,
but increasing their fear and terror. This was deliberate, as is apparent from the fact
that the sandpits to which they were taken were specially prepared and surrounded by


barbed wire...


...According to the WHO office in ..., there are indications of chronic micronutrient

deficiencies among the population, in particular among children. Among the most worrying

indicators is the high prevalence of stunting among 6- to 16-year-old children...


...The destruction of sewage treatment facilities and pipes together with the lack of
purifying materials had consequences for public health... ...Information on water-related diarrhoea

among children under age 3 attending ... facilities was collected weekly ... The analyses showed an increase of 18 per cent... Moreover, 14 per cent of the water samples collected in ...were polluted with microbiological pollutants...




...military operations destroyed or damaged at least 280 schools and kindergartens. Six
of them were located in ... affecting some 9,000 pupils, who had to be relocated.
According to the Ministry of Education and Higher Education, 164 pupils and 12 teachers were
killed during the military operations. Another 454 pupils and five teachers were injured. At ... schools, 86 children and three teachers were killed, and 402 children and 14 teachers injured...



...the start of the military operations with air strikes at a time when schools were functioning exposed
children to a heightened risk and filled them with fear and panic. Schools and the roads towards
them occasionally remained unsafe because of the presence of explosive remnants of war. Two children were killed by those explosives... ...
some children were injured by white phosphorus on

their way to school...

...many incidents in which women and children
had been killed as a result of deliberate or indiscriminate attacks by the ... armed forces... ...there were 10 children showing a single bullet injury to the head and one with two...


...her 10-month-old baby, whom she was carrying in her arms, was hungry but she did not

have anything to give him to eat, and how she tried to feed him by chewing on a piece of bread,
the only food available, and giving it to him. She also managed to get half a cup of water from an
ill functioning tap. There were other babies and older children. She and her sister exposed
themselves to danger by going out to search for food for them. Her husband, mother and sister
were killed but she managed to survive. Her other son was wounded in the back, and she carried


both out of the house...


...heard the testimony of a mother whose children,

aged 3 to 16, had witnessed the killing of their father in their own house. With ... soldiers
forcefully questioning their mother and uncle and vandalizing their house, the children asked
their mother whether they would be killed as well. Their mother felt the only comfort she could


give them was to tell them to say the .... the prayer recited in the face of death...

...The trauma for children having witnessed violence and often the
killing of their own family members will no doubt be long-lasting...


...a pregnant woman who was instructed by ... soldier to evacuate her home with her children, but to leave behind a mentally disabled child...


...approximately 700,000 ... men, women and children have been detained under ... military orders...

...Military Order No. 378... ...allows for a ... detainee from ..., including children as young as 12, to be held for up to eight days before being brought before a military judge ... detainees can be held for

up to 90 days without access to a lawyer ...



detainees can be held for up to 188 days before being charged...


...In its report on ...’s detention of ... children, Defence for Children
International concluded that the abuse of ... children by ... authorities is systematic

and institutionalized...

...the primary evidence used to convict children is a confession obtained through coercive interrogations carried out in the absence of a lawyer...




Hint: Our PM unshakably supports the government responsible for the above atrocities.

 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
I could point to far more examples where Western made bombs have brought meaningless death and destruction to Muslims and Arabs.

Instead, I'll just reference one location in Lebanon:

Qana
...The shelling of Qana, also referred to as the Qana massacre,[1][2] took place on April 18, 1996 in Qana, a village in Southern Lebanon, when Israeli artillery hit the area of a UN compound near Qana. Of the 800 Lebanese civilians who had taken refuge in the compound to escape the fighting, 106 were killed and around 116 injured. Four Fijian United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon soldiers were also seriously injured.[3][4]

..A United Nations military investigation later determined it was unlikely that Israeli shelling of the U.N. compound was the result of technical or procedural errors....

...Muhammad Atta, who later is alleged to be the mastermind of the September 11, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon wrote his martyrdom will on April 18, 1996, the day of the Qana bombings...

1996 shelling of Qana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OBL also referenced the same incident in this 1997 interview:

The first-ever television interview with Osama Bin Ladin was conducted by Peter Arnett in eastern Afghanistan in late March 1997

OBL: ...The US today as a result of the arrogant atmosphere has set a double standard, calling whoever goes against its injustice a terrorist. It wants to occupy our countries, steal our resources, impose on us agents to rule us based not on what God has revealed and wants us to agree on all these. If we refuse to do so, it will say you are terrorists. With a simple look at the US behaviors, we find that it judges the behavior of the poor Palestinian children whose country was occupied: if they throw stones against the Israeli occupation, it says they are terrorists whereas when the Israeli pilots bombed the United Nations building in Qana, Lebanon while was full of children and women, the US stopped any plan to condemn Israel...

Transcript of Osama Bin Ladin interview by Peter Arnett

Qana, 10 years later:

...The 2006 Qana airstrike (also known as the 2006 Qana massacre[1][2][3] or Second Qana massacre[4][5]) was an attack by the Israel Air Force (IAF) on a three-story[6] building in the small community of al-Khuraybah near the South Lebanese village of Qana on July 30, 2006, during the 2006 Lebanon War in which 28 civilians were killed, of which 16 were children.[7] Israel halted air strikes for 48 hours following the attack, amid increasing calls for a cease-fire in the conflict between Israel and Lebanon's Hezbollah guerrillas.[8]

Initial media reports stated that more than 50 people, including 37 children, had died,[9][10] though later reports revised this to a lower figure of 28, including 16 children, with 13 people reported missing.[11][12][13] Residents dug through the rubble with their hands, searching for survivors as bodies were removed. Video broadcast by Arab TV showed the bloodied bodies of women and children who appeared to be wearing nightclothes.[8][9]...

Qana airstrike - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In neither case was anyone or any government held responsible or condemned. Instead the US used its veto power to block justice.

My point is that the perception that Islam is "a religion that believes anyone who is not of their faith, is an infidel and deserves to be killed. If they had power there would be no democracy and no freedom as you know it." is mostly based on demonizing propaganda. Yes I'm sure that some fanatics have made inflamatory statements that could be quoted in support of this viewpoint, but these fanatics are a minority.

The majority of Muslims have good reason to believe the west has double standards when it comes to condemning atrocities, injustice and oppression. Its a fact that the west is guilty of far more atrocities against Muslims than the other way around and we consistently block attempts to bring the criminals responsible to justice. Our western governments have also replaced enlightened democratically elected governments with brutal and cruel pro-West dictators for the benefit of Western interests throughout the world.

Why people who have suffered centuries of Western oppression and injustice are pissed with us shouldn't be a mystery.

The recent Gaza massacre, the ongoing blockade of food and humanitarian aid as well as efforts by Western governments in support of this injustice and oppression are just recent examples. Atrocities like the above have been going on for centuries.

Just because most people in the West are ignorant of these crimes, doesn't mean they didn't happen or that the people on the recieving end are as ignorant of them as we are.
 
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earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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53
48
Maybe if we applied the same standards of justice universally, there would be far fewer people like OBL. I believe our double standards are a major factor why people like OBL and Mohammed Atta exist and why these "extremists" find so much support in the Muslim community.

I was shocked but not surprised by 9/11. 9/11 was inevitable.

Since 9/11, the number and severity of western atrocities against Muslims and Arabs have increased. The Gaza massacre, which has been universally condemned by every human rights organization in existance is a recent example. This atrocity and others like it such as the unprovoked Iraq war crime are supported by western governments including our own and none of the criminals responsible for these atrocities have even been condemned, let alone brought to justice.

Not only don`t our leaders condemn these crimes and the people responsible, most western leaders have defended them.

I expect that more 9/11s will happen and our ignorance and indifference are big part of the problem.
 
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damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
9,949
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kelowna bc
Bring out the crying towels, the Arabs, or at least their religion has been very active
themselves, and apparently they want more to die, as they keep sending suicide
bombers and killers to attack the west. The west must hold its place in the world and
I hope they never negotiate with the Muslims. I am surprised the west hasn't just
declared total war and stopped fighting with one hand behind its back. The hand is
this politically correct multicultural stuff. Yes there has been terrible actions in a
theatre of war, and this is what happens when people turn domestic airliners into
human bombs.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
You still aren't getting my point Damngrumpy.

Western atrocities against Muslims and Arabs are the root cause of events like 9/11. People aren't born with a death wish. Hate is learned. Most people in their situation would react the same way. Muslims aren't sub-human or inherently violent. They are people just like us.

Imagine if this was your childhood experience:

...the testimony of a mother whose children, aged 3 to 16, had witnessed the killing of their father in their own house. ...soldiers forcefully questioning their mother and uncle and vandalizing their house, the children asked their mother whether they would be killed as well. Their mother felt the only comfort she could give them was to tell them to say the .... prayer recited in the face of death

What would you think if you saw soldiers do these things in your home? How about if this event was preceded by two years of deliberate man made famine and disease?

Hundreds of thousands of similar atrocities over the decades have resulted in hundreds of thousands of children growing up filled with anger and hate.

In Gaza, hundreds of thousands of children go to bed hungry every night, knowing their suffering is a direct result of an Israeli blockade of food and humanitarian aid. They know they are victims of a crime against humanity and that few people in the west acknowledge their suffering, let alone demand this injustice end and that those responsible be brought to justice. Think they are bitter???

These people don't hate freedom and democracy. If they did, their rage would be directed at all free nations and democracies, not focused on Israel, the US and their allies.

OBL:
...remember our children who are killed in Palestine and Iraq everyday, remember our deaths in Khowst mosques and remember the premeditated killing of our people in weddings in Afghanistan.


If you were distressed by the killing of your nationals in Moscow, remember ours in Chechnya.

Why should fear, killing, destruction, displacement, orphaning and widowing continue to be our lot, while security, stability and happiness be your lot?

This is unfair. It is time that we get even. You will be killed just as you kill, and will be bombed just as you bomb...

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Full text: 'Bin Laden's message'

The US war crime against the Iraqi people killed 300 times the number of people who died on 9/11. How did you feel about 9/11? Try experiencing 300 9/11's over 6 years and then you might have a clue how most Iraqis feel.

Israel commits war crimes and crimes against humanity every day with the tacit support of our governments and we do nothing. Ordinary Palestinians and Iraqis are powerless to stop these war crimes. The only weapon they have is their bodies and their lives. Some of them believe it is better to die as a martyr in the battle for freedom and justice than to live in fear under injustice and oppression.

You wrote: "The west must hold its place in the world". What does that mean? Do you believe that the west must continue to commit atrocities, war crime and crimes against humanity against Muslims? I doubt that will end the violence.

I believe injustice and oppression leads to violence. Only freedom and justice will lead to peace. We must start holding our governments accountable for their actions. If we want this cycle of violence to end, we have to take the first step and stop electing war criminals and their supporters. We must demand that our governments and allies respect international laws, treaties and conventions and hold criminals guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity responsible for the actions.
 
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