#1Dec 19th, 2009
2319 others browsing the Canadian Forums! Join us!Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
| View Poll Results: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders? | |||
| The UN or some other equivalent international body. |
   
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5 | 33.33% |
| Any other country. |
  
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0 | 0% |
| No one. Each country is an island to itself and its internal affiars are non one else's business. |
  
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7 | 46.67% |
| Other answer. |
  
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3 | 20.00% |
| Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll | |||
No Party Affiliation
#2
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009
If my neighbor beats his kids, do I sit by and let it happen or get involved?
#3
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009
Personally, I vote the UN or some other equivalent international body. On the one hand, I understand that Canada's actions can affect other countries, and certainly mankind reserves the right to to defend it fellowmen living within our borders if those persons are being persecuted, or if Canada itself is hurting people beyond our borders.
However, I also believe in order in all things. It's not up to any one country to be judge and jury against Canada and take the law into its own hands, as that would be plain imperialism. However, the international community, through appropriate international bodies such as the UN, would certainly be allowed to criticize Canada, place sanctions against Canada, or even attack and invade and occupy it if it was a decision made by the world in defense of the wellbeing of the world and not just one country's or a group of countries' 'national interests'.
And of course, since I don't believe in double standards, I believe the same ought to apply across the board, and we ought to treat other countries the same we we would want to be treated by them.
However, I also believe in order in all things. It's not up to any one country to be judge and jury against Canada and take the law into its own hands, as that would be plain imperialism. However, the international community, through appropriate international bodies such as the UN, would certainly be allowed to criticize Canada, place sanctions against Canada, or even attack and invade and occupy it if it was a decision made by the world in defense of the wellbeing of the world and not just one country's or a group of countries' 'national interests'.
And of course, since I don't believe in double standards, I believe the same ought to apply across the board, and we ought to treat other countries the same we we would want to be treated by them.
Conservative
#4
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo
I guess my first question would be, why would anyone want to invade Canada? Next would be, who in their right mind would invade China? Iraq has already been invaded, so that question has already been answered.Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders? Does any country have the right to criticize, place sanctions against, or invade Canada, China, or Iraq, for example, or would it be only the appropriate international bodies such as the UN, or no one?
As far as the appropriate authority to make the decision, my answer would be the UN, as far as I know.
Last question would be, why are you asking? Do you know something we don't???
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#5
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009
Well...now there's a loaded question. Basically, I'm of the opinion that if every country minded its own business, we'd all live happily ever after. But, I guess it's not exactly a black & white issue - in fact, it's got various shades of gray everywhere.
But, in principle, I think countries should mind their own business on the "soft" issues, i.e., the ones that don't pose any threat to the security or well-being of citizens in other countries.
(Yep, I'm "dancing" a bit on this one!)
But, in principle, I think countries should mind their own business on the "soft" issues, i.e., the ones that don't pose any threat to the security or well-being of citizens in other countries.
(Yep, I'm "dancing" a bit on this one!)
No Party Affiliation
#6
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009
People should keep their noses out of others' business, likewise for countries. There are exceptions, however. EG, if one country implies or states threats against anotherhink it's perfectly cool for the threatened country to investigate if the threats are hollow or not. If they aren't hollow, they should put on their own show of force as a warning.
Countries should act like the people they are made of unless it's harmful to others.
Countries should act like the people they are made of unless it's harmful to others.
#7
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Avro
'Beats' or 'is beating'?If my neighbor beats his kids, do I sit by and let it happen or get involved?
If he beats his kid but is not beating his kid at present, you call the police and keep an eye out for him, and let the appropriate authorities deal with it. If you mean 'is beating', then and only then would I say you have a right to defend him in accordance with the law.
Now those last few words in bold are important. It's not up to you to decide how the word 'beat' is to be defined. If he's beating his kid according to the legal definition of the word, then yes, you intervene in accordance with the law and use whatever force required in conformity with the law.
The same could apply to countries. If a country is in violation of international laws, then it is dealt with in accordance with international laws. If we don't like the laws, we try to change them, but abide by them in the mean time.
No Party Affiliation
#8
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Mowich
I guess my first question would be, why would anyone want to invade Canada? I guess my first question would be, why would anyone want to invade Canada? Next would be, who in their right mind would invade China? Iraq has already been invaded, so that question has already been answered.
As far as the appropriate authority to make the decision, my answer would be the UN, as far as I know.
Last question would be, why are you asking? Do you know something we don't???
Because of our resources...including water.
Why wouldn't they invade Canada?
Because the U.S. is next door
Agree that the UN is theoretically the right body, but it has a fair amount of dysfunctionality...too bad.
No Party Affiliation
#9
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo
So now you have made a case to help people internationally.'Beats' or 'is beating'?
If he beats his kid but is not beating his kid at present, you call the police and keep an eye out for him, and let the appropriate authorities deal with it. If you mean 'is beating', then and only then would I say you have a right to defend him in accordance with the law.
Now those last few words in bold are important. It's not up to you to decide how the word 'beat' is to be defined. If he's beating his kid according to the legal definition of the word, then yes, you intervene in accordance with the law and use whatever force required in conformity with the law.
The same could apply to countries. If a country is in violation of international laws, then it is dealt with in accordance with international laws. If we don't like the laws, we try to change them, but abide by them in the mean time.
Make up your mind.
#10
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Mowich
This is a spin-off from another thread about Harper criticizing China's human rights. The question is, who has the right to criticize China's human rights beyond its borders? Is it the appropriate international bodies? Is it anybody? Nobody? Of course if we believe that what applies to one applies to all, then the same question could be asked of Canada. Who has the right to criticize Canada from beyond our borders? Anybody? The appropriate international bodies? Nobody?I guess my first question would be, why would anyone want to invade Canada? Next would be, who in their right mind would invade China? Iraq has already been invaded, so that question has already been answered.
As far as the appropriate authority to make the decision, my answer would be the UN, as far as I know.
Last question would be, why are you asking? Do you know something we don't???
Of course in all fairness, the answer to one applies to all.
#11
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by countryboy
Of course we could start another thread on how to improve the UN or replace it with a body with more teeth. But the principle still applies.I guess my first question would be, why would anyone want to invade Canada?
Because of our resources...including water.
Why wouldn't they invade Canada?
Because the U.S. is next door
Agree that the UN is theoretically the right body, but it has a fair amount of dysfunctionality...too bad.
No Party Affiliation
#12
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by countryboy
Pretty much.I guess my first question would be, why would anyone want to invade Canada?
Because of our resources...including water.
Why wouldn't they invade Canada?
Because the U.S. is next door
Agree that the UN is theoretically the right body, but it has a fair amount of dysfunctionality...too bad.
#13
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Avro
I've been consistent through and through. I've never, ever said we should not help people internationally. Prove that I have.So now you have made a case to help people internationally.
Make up your mind.
What I've been saying all along is that we should help them in accordance with international law. For example, Bush was right to go to the UN to ask help for Iraq. He was wrong in invading Iraq after the UN said no. The UN said yes to Afghanistan, and so he had the legal right to enter Afghanistan.
I don't know the details concerning Mulroney here, but certainly if he brought the pressure through the UN, then fine. If however, it was just him and a few other countries doing so on their own, then no.
If you're stealing a chocolate bar, I certainly have the legal right to make a citizen's arrest and call the police and hand you over to the police. I do not have the legal right to take you out back and put a bullet through your head.
I know the difference might be too subtle for some, but it is there. It's a matter of abiding by the law in an orderly society vs international anarchy.
#14
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009
To take a current example, I think Harper would be well within his right to take up China's human rights issues through his ambassador at the UN General Assembly or through the world court, the UNHCR, or some other UN body.
As a diplomat though, he should not be going out and badmouthing China publicly. If I have a concern for how my neighbour treats his kids, I might call the authorities, but it's not up to me to publicly humiliate him in the local papers. If he goes to jail in the end, then the appropriate authorities will publicize what ought to be publicized with all due respect to the prisoner. If harper wants to bring up the issue privately with Hu or Jia Bao, that's fine. Publicly though, he ought o be more diplomatic and let the UN deal with it. If the UN decides on
sanctions, then fine, Canada abides by them with all due respect to China, but does not go out criticizing China on a regular basis.
Same applies of course with other countries and Canada's human rights.
As a diplomat though, he should not be going out and badmouthing China publicly. If I have a concern for how my neighbour treats his kids, I might call the authorities, but it's not up to me to publicly humiliate him in the local papers. If he goes to jail in the end, then the appropriate authorities will publicize what ought to be publicized with all due respect to the prisoner. If harper wants to bring up the issue privately with Hu or Jia Bao, that's fine. Publicly though, he ought o be more diplomatic and let the UN deal with it. If the UN decides on
sanctions, then fine, Canada abides by them with all due respect to China, but does not go out criticizing China on a regular basis.
Same applies of course with other countries and Canada's human rights.
No Party Affiliation
#15
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009
I get it.
Can't say or do anything unless it goes through commitee.
Can't say or do anything unless it goes through commitee.
No Party Affiliation
#16
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Avro
That's what happens anyway. Even Dumbya had the support of his cronies like Cheney before he ordered Iraq invaded.I get it.
Can't say or do anything unless it goes through commitee.
You;d rather have country A, B, and C flipping out every time they perceive country D to be doing something A,B, and C don't like? What if D's people like it. Interfere on the hunch they don't like it anyway?
#17
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Avro
You can do whatever you want as long as it's in accordance with international law. I suppose in that sense, Harper is well within his right to criticize China.I get it.
Can't say or do anything unless it goes through commitee.
But I'd rather my elected politician go beyond that and recognize that abroad he should e more conservative and diplomatic too. In other words, criticize them behind closed doors face to face, and not out in public. If he wants to take further action, then do so through the UN General Assembly.
No Party Affiliation
#18
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Avro
I sometimes take it for granted that after years of being here saying the same things periodically that fellow posters have paid attention to what my beliefs are. I think anyone that's been here a month and has read my posts could tell that I'm a humanitarian. And you've been here how long?Depends....how many more times are you going to go leave very important info out?
Your comment about South Africa was...."Such is life."
BTW, the "such is life" comment was sarcasm.
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#19
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert
So the blacks in south africa liked it?That's what happens anyway. Even Dumbya had the support of his cronies like Cheney before he ordered Iraq invaded.
You;d rather have country A, B, and C flipping out every time they perceive country D to be doing something A,B, and C don't like? What if D's people like it. Interfere on the hunch they don't like it anyway?
Did the student protesters in China like getting run over by tanks?
Now, in desperation you want to bring it to the severity of the offense. You can't see the diffrence between captivating an entire race to dancing naked in the streets?
Nice.
No Party Affiliation
#20
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009
Whoever has the biggest stick
#21
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by weaselwords
Wow, what a highly developed sense of right and wrong you have there. Might makes right, you say.Whoever has the biggest stick
#22
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009
Let's just take another example here. I believe abortion is essentially murder, but the law says otherwise. So do I have the right to take the law into my own hands and punish the abortionist by killing him on his way home one evening because I think it's the right thing to do?
If we way any country can invade another because it thinks it's the right thing to do, then killing the abortionist is the right thing to do too.
If, however, you believe that Canada should let the UN deal with international issue regardless of our own opinions, then it's like saying that while I can vote or start a petition, until the law is changed I ought to abide by the current decision that abortion is legal.
So, should I go out and kill the abortionist and take the law into my own hands, or should I respect the law of the land and simply try to change it by legal means?
If we way any country can invade another because it thinks it's the right thing to do, then killing the abortionist is the right thing to do too.
If, however, you believe that Canada should let the UN deal with international issue regardless of our own opinions, then it's like saying that while I can vote or start a petition, until the law is changed I ought to abide by the current decision that abortion is legal.
So, should I go out and kill the abortionist and take the law into my own hands, or should I respect the law of the land and simply try to change it by legal means?
No Party Affiliation
#23
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009
Sure, but I say I don't like abortion anytime I want in legal channels or not. It's called feedom of speech. If other countires like china don't like it they can just ignore it or counter attack. China dosen't like it because free speech is astill a bit taboo there.
Do I like it when someone from another nation critises Canada....no, but I honor the right to say it....in jeans, suits or naked.
Do I like it when someone from another nation critises Canada....no, but I honor the right to say it....in jeans, suits or naked.
#24
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Avro
Fine. Fair enough. Though I don't agree with it on diplomatic grounds, I suppose as long as that country respects international law, then it's still not too bad. Certainly, Harper's public criticisms of China, while still not necessarily wise, will cause limited damage at worse.Sure, but I say I don't like abortion anytime I want in legal channels or not. It's called feedom of speech. If other countires like china don't like it they can just ignore it or counter attack. China dosen't like it because free speech is astill a bit taboo there.
Do I like it when someone from another nation critises Canada....no, but I honor the right to say it....in jeans, suits or naked.
I would still stand by the principle of at least respecting international laws though. This would mean, for example, not going into Iraq after the international community said no. I assume you agree with that at least?
#25
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009
I voted UN or other equivalent international group. I almost picked other, because sometimes the UN gets ignored
No Party Affiliation
#26
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo
On Iraq:Fine. Fair enough. Though I don't agree with it on diplomatic grounds, I suppose as long as that country respects international law, then it's still not too bad. Certainly, Harper's public criticisms of China, while still not necessarily wise, will cause limited damage at worse.
I would still stand by the principle of at least respecting international laws though. This would mean, for example, not going into Iraq after the international community said no. I assume you agree with that at least?
The UN didn't agree but many states did sign on to it.
If the UN had supported it I would feel the same way I do now, the war was wrong based on the main reasons presented for invasion.
I supported the war in Afghanistan but soon after realised I was wrong in doing so. I was duped by flag waving patritism like most of us.
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#27
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo
The statement is borne out in the History books it doesn't nesecssarily mean "that might is right" it just means those who have the power to wield will make the decisions good, bad or indifferent.Wow, what a highly developed sense of right and wrong you have there. Might makes right, you say.
No Party Affiliation
#28
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009
Until the UN gets its own act together and does something about those states within its membership that perform less than a decent standard, countries should mind their own business unless what other countries do harms them or humanity in general.
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#29
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Avro
Sure fire way to ensure that lots of money and time gets spent doing exactly nothing.I get it.
Can't say or do anything unless it goes through commitee.
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#30
Re: Who has authority over a country from beyond its borders?
Dec 19th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by taxslave
And countries sticking their noses into other countries' business whether it's needed or not is another waste of money and a cause for hard feelings to top the problem.Sure fire way to ensure that lots of money and time gets spent doing exactly nothing.
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