Germany and France should hang their heads in shame over Afghanistan

Blackleaf

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Once upon a time it was difficult to stop the French and German armies marching into another countries...... illegally.

First there was Napoleon in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries.

Despite being so short he would have had to use stepladders to snog a dwarf and the fact he had a fetish for female sweat, he had an ego the size of the British Empire. He thought nothing of marching into a European country and claiming it for himself. He even had the audacity to try and invade Great Britain, until the likes of Nelson and Wellington put paid to that.

Then there was Hitler. A mustachioed twerp with one testicle who thought he would create a world empire populated by blond hair and blue eyed robots by marching into various European countries and slaughtering their Jews. Thankfully, the Russians and the British (both peoples he stupidly tried to invade) put paid to his nefarious ways.

But, in the early twenty-first century, when it comes to occupying a country LEGALLY the French and Germans don't want to know.

In Afghanistan, it is the close allies of the Americans, British and Canadians who are carrying most of the burden. So, too, are the Dutch.

Britain has just announced another 500 troops for the war-torn country, taking the total British contingent there to over 10,000. The US is to send another 30,000 troops.

Needless, to say, though, the French and Germans will not be sending any more troops. They are probably too busy trying to build their Empire in Europe, including the creation of an EU Army. If they think the British would ever have their soldiers and equipment controlled from Brussels they need their heads seeing to.

Afghanistan and a lesson in EU humility

By Daily Mail Comment
02nd December 2009
Daily Mail


German soldiers in Afghanistan. They might have been fearsome in the 1940s, but today Germany won't allow its troops in Afghanistan to fight at night

In Monday's solemn statement to MPs, Gordon Brown declared that he had set a number of conditions for the sending of extra British troops to Afghanistan - among them the securing of a cast-iron commitment that other nations would be 'bearing their share'.

This condition had been met, he claimed - and he duly deployed a further 500 soldiers to Helmand province, taking Britain's total to 10,000.

Last night, President Obama - after weeks of indecision - finally announced he would be sending an extra 30,000 U.S. troops to Afghanistan, and that he expected a further 10,000 to follow from his country's allies.


Abstaining from war: French President Nicolas Sarkozy and German counterpart Angela Merkel have refused to join U.S. President Obama's latest Afghan push

But were those key NATO neighbours France and Germany - defended so resolutely by America during the Cold War - prepared to 'bear their share'?

Non, said President Sarkozy. Nein, said Chancellor Angela Merkel.

The reality is that the countries of Eastern Europe will have to take the pain for them.

The British Army consists of 148,000 personnel; the French Army consists of 134,000 personnel; and the German Army consists of 102,000 personnel. Despite the armies being fairly close in size, the French and Germans have only a fraction of the troops in Afghanistan that the British have. Britain currently has 9,000 troops in the country, but will soon send another 500. Including special forces (the exact number of which has not been made public), that would mean Britain will probably soon have over 10,000 troops in Afghanistan. Germany has 4,365 troops in Afghanistan and France has 3,095. Canada has 2,830 troops in Afghanistan, despite its army having just 36,000 personnel.

If the West's involvement in Afghanistan is a war on terror - and there is no doubt that with nuclear-armed Pakistan being dragged into the debacle with the Taliban firmly ensconced on its borders that the stakes are terribly high - then France and Germany's behaviour is deeply regrettable.

Let's not forget that both countries claim to be steadfast supporters of the NATO-led mission in Afghanistan.

They also share the declared ambition of the EU one day having its own united army, one of the central planks of the Lisbon Treaty, which came into operation yesterday and which was so disgracefully imposed upon the British people.

The idea of an EU army was always a bad - if frightening - joke. Today, it is simply laughable. France and Germany should hang their heads in shame.

Coalition fatalities in Afghanistan

United States: 857
Britain: 235
Canada: 132
Germany: 40
France: 36
Denmark: 30
Spain: 26
Italy: 22
Netherlands: 21
Poland: 15
Others: 52
TOTAL:1,465

dailymail.co.uk
 
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Mowich

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I concur, Blackleaf. Shameful, but not surprising as both countries have failed before in living up to their UN committments.

I can't get my head around the idea of an EU army mainly because I cannot envision the troops being able to get along with each other. I believe there would be far too much internecine battling for position.
 

LuckyCookie

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Dec 2, 2009
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This is easy for you to say, not being German!
In Germany every guy over 18 has to join the army for at least 9 months unless he manages to convince the recruitment office that he is not in a condition to serve. Hence, a large part of our army is made up of people who did not join willingly unlike in Canada.
It is due to the fact that Germany has brought pain and death to many countries over the years that we are now reluctant to use violence to enforce "our" views.
Also, like you mentioned before, Germany already has more soldiers in Afghanistan than do the Canadians. I dont see why it matters how big the army is. If Canada feels that they want to devote this large number of people to this particular cause, then that's the government's choice.

P.S.: I think we all know why the French are reluctant to send anyone... They have shown time and time again that they are simply bad at war... ;-)
 
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Mowich

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This is easy for you to say, not being German!
In Germany every guy over 18 has to join the army for at least 9 months unless he manages to convince the recruitment office that he is not in a condition to serve. Hence, a large part of our army is made up of people who did not join willingly unlike in Canada.
It is due to the fact that Germany has brought pain and death to many countries over the years that we are now reluctant to use violence to enforce "our" views.
Also, like you mentioned before, Germany already has more soldiers in Afghanistan than do the Canadians. I dont see why it matters how big the army is. If Canada feels that they want to devote this large number of people to this particular cause, then that's the government's choice.

P.S.: I think we all know why the French are reluctant to send anyone... They have shown time and time again that they are simply bad at war... ;-)

I didn't realize that Germany enforced conscription for males over the age of 18. Two questions though, why if they are reluctant to engage their troops, do they mandate conscription and, why aren't women included?
 

gerryh

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Gewrmany's armed forces, untill recently, has been for self defence only. Having a standing army does not need to mean you are ready and willing to invade, or help invade, another country.
 

EagleSmack

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I am just firing from the hip here a little bit but Canada is in one of the hottest spots in Afghanistan and fighting day and night. I don't think it matters too much if you have 10,000 troops in the rear areas and unwilling to go out at night.

I think if NATO troops from Canada, Britain, and the US were willing to die by the hundreds of thousands during the Cold War in Germany the Germans could pony up a bit more.
 
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Mowich

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I am just firing from the hip here a little bit but Canada is in one of the hottest spots in Afghanistan and fighting day and night. I don't think it matters too much if you have 10,000 troops in the rear areas and unwilling to go out at night.

I think if NATO troops from Canada, Britain, and the US were willing to die by the hundreds of thousands during the Cold War the Germans could pony up a bit more.

HERE! HERE! EagleSmack. My sentiments exactly.
 

LuckyCookie

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Since I am a woman, I never had to think about these questions, but let me tell you what the German army says about the reason for having a conscription.
First of all they deem it necessary for the protection of the country, not only in case of war, but also in the case of natural disasters, accidents and terrorist acts. (The army will, for example, help in the case of floods by building dams.) The most important goal of German foreign policy is keeping peace. As a member of the EU they feel that all member countries have to work together to keep the peace. Keeping the conscription will signalize to the other countries that Germany is still willing to uphold this promise. There have been discussions about changing to a volunteer army (like Canada), but it has been shown that this might lead to increased costs and difficulties in recruiting men. A lot of the people who decide to serve in the army do so after getting their first insight into the army through the conscription. Lastly, they feel that having a conscription leads to an army that comprises of people from all different classes. (Some say that volunteer armies are made up of large parts of uneducated people who might otherwise not find a job.)
Just to let you know, there are discussions and have been for a while about the need to have a conscription.
As for the part about the women: some say that women already bear the burden of child birth and taking care of the children which "robs" them of several years of their lives. Since the conscription is basically doing the same for males, they feel that women should not be forced into the army and bear two burdens. Some also say that women are not fit to handle weapons, although this is hardly even an argument any more, since women are now allowed to join the army of their own accord.
Personally, I was happy that I was not forced into the army or the mandatory civil service that was pushed onto those who refused to join for ethical reasons....
 

LuckyCookie

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Dec 2, 2009
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Also, there are doubts about the legality of the German troops already fighting in Afghanistan as the German code of law specifically prohibits us from attacking another country. The German's assignment for Afghanistan is to protect the public and help build an Afghan police service.
 

Mowich

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Also, there are doubts about the legality of the German troops already fighting in Afghanistan as the German code of law specifically prohibits us from attacking another country. The German's assignment for Afghanistan is to protect the public and help build an Afghan police service.

Thank you so much for telling me all this, LuckyCookie. It is so interesting to learn about another country straight from one of its citizens. By the way, Welcome to the Forum, I hope you will enjoy your time here.
 

LuckyCookie

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No problem! If you have any other questions I'd be more than willing to help you out as much as I can! And thanks for welcoming me to the Forum. =)
 

Mowich

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No problem! If you have any other questions I'd be more than willing to help you out as much as I can! And thanks for welcoming me to the Forum. =)

I will remember that, LC, and do so. Should you have any questions about the forum or anything else, please feel free to ask. :smile:
 

Sparrow

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Has anyone thought that they might have had their fill of war? They have endured a lot over the centuries. European history is full of wars, and I think they have a right to make their own decision.

Something is wrong today in the thinking that if someone does not agree with us their should be ashamed. In other words they HAVE to respect our ideas about the subject but we DON'T HAVE to respect theirs.
 

Mowich

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We have all had our fill of war, Sparrow. I just wonder how France would react should Al Queda decide to blow up innocent people in their country knowing they had the chance to increase their troops and possibly, just possibly put an end to the threat once and for all.
 

s_lone

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So France and Germany don't want to join the ''international'' moral spanking of Afghanistan....

Boo hoo!...

If you want to stick your nose in the affairs of Afghanistan then deal with the consequences. Don't go whining about those who just want to mind their own business.
 

Johnnny

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Has anyone thought that they might have had their fill of war? They have endured a lot over the centuries. European history is full of wars, and I think they have a right to make their own decision.

Something is wrong today in the thinking that if someone does not agree with us their should be ashamed. In other words they HAVE to respect our ideas about the subject but we DON'T HAVE to respect theirs.

could it also be said that these the same europeans that moved to North America. Napolean may have been ripping up europe when we were infant countries, but the american civil war was no joke. And our wars may not be many as a sovereign nation but there all wars were because of europeans.

And they had there fill because there european? I guess the british and dutch people are tougher then the french and germans, or there not from europe:idea:

They say european wars, tired, this and that... My family was involved in alot of major wars, and we still have some fight left in us, and my moms side is recently from europe... As far as im concerned being european is not an excuse to not fight...

Im expressing my outrage on this fact, because there are men and women from sudbury over there. That could be getting more support then they have there already
 

EagleSmack

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Also, there are doubts about the legality of the German troops already fighting in Afghanistan as the German code of law specifically prohibits us from attacking another country. The German's assignment for Afghanistan is to protect the public and help build an Afghan police service.

What does NATO say about this?

It was all fine and good from the late 40's to the early 90's for NATO nations ready to spill blood on your soil for Germany.
 

gerryh

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What does NATO say about this?

It was all fine and good from the late 40's to the early 90's for NATO nations ready to spill blood on your soil for Germany.

Gee......I wonder why Germany would have this law on their books? Anybody have any ideas?