AI, HRW, the UN? Who should you believe?

CDNBear

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In 1961, British Lawyer Peter Benenson found himself appalled at reading about two Portuguese students being detained for raising a glass and toasting freedom. After starting a letter writing campaign, and submitting an article entitled "The Forgotten Prisoners", it took him less then one year to have formed or forming branches of Amnesty in over a dozen countries.

In it's early years, Amnesty focused on sections 18 and 19 of the UN Human Rights declaration, over time broadening their focus to encompass all manner of human rights abuses, both physical and mental.

In those heady early years, even I was a proponent of AI. In time I would come to hold nothing more then contempt for this group. Their bias is legendary, even seen by those in its highest positions, such as Professor Francis Boyle, Professor of International Law at the University of Illinois. Who left AI over it's bias and in the coverage of the Arab Israeli conflict. So contentious was this parting of ways, that he threatened to sue AI, a lawsuit that was avoided in an out of court settlement.

Francis Boyle said:
"Amnesty International is primarily motivated not by human rights but by publicity. Second comes money. Third comes getting more members. Fourth, internal turf battles. And then finally, human rights, genuine human rights concerns."

Other learned critics include...

Prof. Michael Mandel, Prof of International Law at York University, Toronto Canada. Who challenges AI's reports on the war in the Balkans.

Prof. Nabeel Abraham, Prof of Anthropology at Henry Ford University, Michigan USA. Who has written a comparative study of ten leading human rights organizations.

Prof Clare Brandabur, Prof of Comparative English Literature at Dogus University Turkey.

Prof Agustine Velloso, UNED Dept, Comparative Educationa Systems, Madrid Spain.

And finally Paul de Rooij, who has written three illuminating articles, highlighting and discussing AI's bias's.
I can fully grasp ones need to believe in something. The necessity of groups that over see, and monitor the abuses of the world is not something to be balked at. There is a true need, but even the founder of Human Rights Watch, has slammed HRW. What does that tell you?

But when these groups and their leadership, trip merrily away from their originating mandates and begin to attempt to force their ideology upon the masses or their leaders. They have over stepped their mandate, become the very thing they were created to overcome.

By focusing their ideology on single entities, and hiding that bias behind the claim of "It's easier to disclose the abuses of more open societies". The mutated mandate is clear. No longer are they the vanguards of rights and freedoms, they are the tools of the societies, countries and criminals that they ignore. Their bias, their lies of ommission are used to bolster the troops as it were.

It confuses fact for emotion and ideological motivations. Those with the limited skills of critical thought, deductive reasoning, look to groups such as AI, HRW and the UN for leadership, guidence and information. They blindly follow, and believe what they read, see and are told, because these groups preach peace and equality.

And that's true, on the sufface. But behind the reports, the releases and the misinformation, lies a sinister plot of mediocrity, laziness and bias. All of which combine to be nothing more then a waste of a valiant premise.

I'm sure I will be chastised for a lack of supporting proof of my assertions here, but I ask, in my defense, would it change your mind? If I put forth the effort of colating all the pertenant clips, do all the leg work in comparative documentation, would those that support the virtues of AI, HRW and in certain instances, the UN, believe a word of it? It is possible, the truth is out there. If only open, critical and deductive reasoning is used, more people would see the bias, the lies and the shear idiocy of some of these groups.

They are biased, their bias is not only troubling, it's dangerous.
 
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MHz

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None of those bodies is authorized to make judgments so it doesn't matter if we believe them or not, it only matters if they have the right credentials to submit 'papers' to this body that is as independent from the UN as our legal system is independent from being accountable to anybody other than the Law. It is what they believe that is what will matter. No great effort to smear them before this report was to be presented. The report accuses both sides of lapses, I would thing everybody would support a full investigation. If Tipi was correct and they operated within UN rules then that will be blatantly clear after the trial(s). It would only be Hamas members that would then be facing trial, should the evidence point to the need for one.

The Court | International Court of Justice
The Court

#divHtml a:link, #divHtml a:visited, #divHtml a:active { font-weight: bold !important; } The International Court of Justice (ICJ) is the principal judicial organ of the

United Nations (UN). It was established in June 1945 by the Charter of the

United Nations and began work in April 1946.
The seat of the Court is at the Peace Palace in The Hague (Netherlands).

Of the six principal organs of the United Nations, it is the only one not located

in New York (United States of America).
The Court’s role is to settle, in accordance with international law, legal disputes

submitted to it by States and to give advisory opinions on legal questions referred

to it by authorized United Nations organs and specialized agencies.
The Court is composed of 15 judges, who are elected for terms of office of

nine years by the United Nations General Assembly and the Security Council.

It is assisted by a Registry, its administrative organ. Its official languages are

English and French.


It should boil down to this, do we abide by their ruling after they have heard

from all interested parties. T%\heit authority to demand certain documents

from any country should almost be





Current Members

President

Vice-President

Judges

Registrar

 

earth_as_one

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Pretty much every international human rights organization in existance has accused Israel of committing war crimes and crimes against humanity, including the International Committee of the Red Cross:

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) is maintaining most of its humanitarian activities in Gaza while trying to clarify the circumstances under which one of its convoys came under fire on 8 January...

Gaza: ICRC medics work on
The ICRC had requested safe passage for ambulances to access this neighbourhood since 3 January but it only received permission to do so from the Israel Defense Forces during the afternoon of 7 January.

The ICRC/PRCS team found four small children next to their dead mothers in one of the houses. They were too weak to stand up on their own. One man was also found alive, too weak to stand up. In all there were at least 12 corpses lying on mattresses.

In another house, the ICRC/PRCS rescue team found 15 other survivors of this attack including several wounded. In yet another house, they found an additional three corpses. Israeli soldiers posted at a military position some 80 meters away from this house ordered the rescue team to leave the area...

Gaza: ICRC demands urgent access to wounded as Israeli army fails to assist wounded Palestinians

Even Israeli Human rights Groups believe Israeli soldiers have committed war crimes and demand Israeli courts investigate the Israeli military:

Israeli human rights organizations have reiterated demands that Attorney General Menachem Mazuz reconsider his refusal to establish an independent investigative body to examine military proceedings during Operation Cast Lead. Such an investigation is critical following the revelation of soldier testimonies concerning the killing of innocent Palestinians revealed this morning in Haaretz. Many Palestinian accounts have reflected a similar picture to that revealed today, triggering suspicions that today's revelations represent only the tip of the iceberg, and that they are the result of norms of conduct that have taken hold throughout the army....

B'Tselem - Press Releases - 19 March '09: Israeli Human Rights Organizations Call on the Attorney General: “Stop whitewashing suspected crimes in Gaza"

Israeli soldiers have also reported witnessing numerous war crimes:
Breaking The Silence - Israeli soldiers talk about the occupied territories

So which is more likely?

a) International and Israeli Human Rights Organizations are conspiring against Israel.

B) Bombing civilians with chemical weapons, using civilians including children as human shields, deliberately attacking hospitals, ambulances, medics, water and sewage treatment plants, laying waste to entire residential neighborhoods without any military justification are war crimes while blocking food, medicine and humanitarian aid from reaching 1.5 million sick and hungry people is a crime against humanity.

Recent Amnesty International and UN Reports have detailed the evidence of Israeli (and Palestinian) war crimes. You can find links to both reports here:
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/i...esty-international-report-operation-cast.html

But if Israel's leaders truly believe they are innocent of these crimes, then they should welcome their day in the International Court of Justice since the onus is on the accuser to prove guilt, not on the accused to prove innocence.

Instead Israel has launched a global misinformation campaign to discredit and silence their long and growing list of critics. They've resorted to using every legal and political means at their disposal to avoid being brought before the court.

Israel's actions should be a big clue about what Israel thinks about their chances of being exonerated by the International Court of Justice.
 

TenPenny

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I would think that any human rights group that doesn't mention Israel is not doing its job. Not that Israel should be singled out, but we can't turn a blind eye just because they think they're god's children.
 

earth_as_one

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I would think that any human rights group that doesn't mention Israel is not doing its job. Not that Israel should be singled out, but we can't turn a blind eye just because they think they're god's children.

Its not just Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, Physicians for Human Rights, Lawyers for Human Rights, the International Committee of the Red Cross, B'Tselem, ....and many other Humanitarian organizations that call for accountability.

An overwhelming majority of nations (114) voted in support of the Report of the United Nations fact finding mission on the Gaza Conflict, headed by Justice Richard Goldstone, which concluded that Israel's objective last Christmas in Gaza was "to punish, humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability."

Only 18 countries including Canada and the US voted in favor of protecting war criminals from prosecution.
 

AnnaG

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Back to the topic.
"AI, HRW, the UN? Who should you believe?"
Not one of them until what they say has been verified.
 

AnnaG

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Would letting the 'accusations' go to trial be s suitable way to 'verify' them?
That would depend upon the people conducting the trials, wouldn't it? That's not exactly what I meant anyway. I was thinking along the lines of collecting data and sorting out which data is fact and which is fiction.
A friend from Belarus said that they read 6 or 7 newspapers and then sort out which data coincides with the others, because Russia and previous USSR districts' newspapers all lie like sidewalks. So the people just take it for granted that what newspapers say is deliberate misinformation and have gotten used to sorting out facts from fishpoo.
 

MHz

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You would think a televised war-crimes trial(s) would gather a large audience from the televised event. Any other method in place today would have that 'discussion' behind closed doors and the 'public' getting a few words on the final decision.

Our own newspapers are under no obligation to print the truth, they can knowingly print a lie basically.

copied from another forum "There has already been a judicial ruling that the media is under no constraints to tell the truth. This was a case in which two journalists sued FOX over material that was going into a story that was not true."
 

earth_as_one

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Back to the topic.
"AI, HRW, the UN? Who should you believe?"
Not one of them until what they say has been verified.

Your post is conclusive proof that pro-Israeli propaganda to silence and discredit Israel's critics is working.

You say that you won't believe a single source until what they say has been verified. Verified by who? As in "Who is left"? Every credible Human Rights group in existance has independantly looked at the situation and came to the same conclusion as the UN appointed fact finding mission headed up by an experienced internationally respected South African judge who also happens to be a Zionist Jew!

Jews For Justice For Palestinians:
We Jews should be very proud of Richard Goldstone. In an ancient tradition of Jewish self-questioning and uncomfortable truth-telling, the author of the recent report from the UN Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict has braved personal vilification and institutional mendacity to describe the crimes committed by Israeli forces in the course of their invasion of Gaza in December 2008.


To be sure, the Goldstone Report also itemizes the crimes of Hamas, notably in its campaign of rocket-firing into Israel. But the scale of human rights abuses by Israel vastly outdoes anything Hamas could hope to have achieved: Israeli civilian victims of Hamas rocket attacks numbered less than ten. The attack on Gaza by the IDF resulted in at least 1,100 Palestinian civilian deaths. The major perpetrator of human rights abuses in this conflict is without question the State of Israel, and Justice Goldstone records as much.

That the Israel of Benjamin Netanyahu has chosen to conduct an international campaign against Justice Goldstone and his report need not surprise us. Israel refused to cooperate with the UN investigation; long before its conclusions were published, Netanyahu had set in motion a campaign to deny and denigrate them. More dispiriting, and of greater political consequence, is the pitiful and humiliating response of the Obama Administration. The “fierce urgency of now” apparently required that Washington join Tel Aviv in discrediting the Goldstone Report, and with it the UN inquiry.

This response is of course in keeping with America’s long-standing determination to protect Israel against the consequences of its actions at home and abroad; but the universal international condemnation of the destruction of Gaza renders the Obama Administration’s response peculiarly self-defeating — everyone knows what happened in Gaza, so Washington’s collusion in covering it up merely draws further attention to the discrediting of U.S. foreign policy and moral standing brought about by our unhealthy relationship with Israel.

There is a special irony to the public slandering of Justice Goldstone now under way. In the first place he is not only Jewish but has close family links to Israel and the Zionist ideal. Secondly, Richard Goldstone has an impeccable resumé as a critic of racism, prejudice and repression — most notably as an active opponent for many years of the apartheid regime in his native South Africa. During the ’90s he served as Chief Prosecutor at the United Nations International Criminal Tribunals dealing with human rights abuses, crimes and genocide in the former Yugoslavia and for Rwanda. It would be hard to fictionalize a more convincing biography for an engaged and ethically uncompromising jurist in the great tradition of Jewish political activism. Goldstone’s standing in the world will only rise as a consequence of Israel’s short-sighted attempts to discredit the man, the report and the facts. That our own government has chosen to join in this unworthy exercise should be a source of deep embarrassment and shame.

Justice Goldstone and the Jews | Jews for Justice for Palestinians

So on one side, you have every Human Rights group in existance agreeing a UN fact finding mission that Israel commits war crimes and crimes against humanity and on the other side you have paid Israeli lobby groups claiming everyone is biased against Israel. Also we have the main stream media pretending to be objective but barely reporting the findings of these groups (but when they do its always with an Israeli rebuttal usually followed by a story about the holocaust and a thinly disguised pro-Israel propaganda piece). Rarely does the MSM give Palestinians the same opportunity to comment on pro-Israeli propaganda or the Human Rights reports.

As a result you have a misperception that claims about Israel's war crimes and crimes are controversial and haven't been verified, when they aren't controversial and have been verified repeatedly.
 

AnnaG

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Your post is conclusive proof that pro-Israeli propaganda to silence and discredit Israel's critics is working.
So? Was I talking about the Israeli/Palestinian thing? No. Did I refute the claims of one side or the other? No.
You say that you won't believe a single source until what they say has been verified. Verified by who? As in "Who is left"?
Verified by whomever assembles the facts, obviously. :roll:
Every credible Human Rights group in existance has independantly looked at the situation and came to the same conclusion as the UN appointed fact finding mission headed up by an experienced internationally respected South African judge who also happens to be a Zionist Jew!
I'm thrilled. If all of them investigated and they all came to the same conclusion, it must be what happened, right?

Jews For Justice For Palestinians:


So on one side, you have every Human Rights group in existance agreeing a UN fact finding mission that Israel commits war crimes and crimes against humanity and on the other side you have paid Israeli lobby groups claiming everyone is biased against Israel. Also we have the main stream media pretending to be objective but barely reporting the findings of these groups (but when they do its always with an Israeli rebuttal usually followed by a story about the holocaust and a thinly disguised pro-Israel propaganda piece). Rarely does the MSM give Palestinians the same opportunity to comment on pro-Israeli propaganda or the Human Rights reports.

As a result you have a misperception that claims about Israel's war crimes and crimes are controversial and haven't been verified, when they aren't controversial and have been verified repeatedly.
The fact is that you mistook what I was saying to be an argument favoring so-and-so over whatsisname. You're wrong. I was simply stating my method in reaching my opinion.:roll:
 

earth_as_one

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AnnaG, I'm sorry. I misinterpreted what you were saying.

I'm not sure what you think this string is about. I recognize CB's post as a cut and paste from one of many smear articles flooding the news and internet in a massive campaign to silence and discredit Human Rights organizations and other entities which have recently written reports detailing Israel's war crimes and crimes against humanity.

All these articles lead back to Israel and their supporters. Their purpose is to interfere with efforts to hold Israeli leaders and soldiers accountable for their crimes.

Referencing CB's original post:
...In those heady early years, even I was a proponent of AI. In time I would come to hold nothing more then contempt for this group. Their bias is legendary, even seen by those in its highest positions, such as Professor Francis Boyle, Professor of International Law at the University of Illinois. Who left AI over it's bias and in the coverage of the Arab Israeli conflict....

That's true. But CB's post deliberately creates a misperception that Boyle thought AI was too critical of Israel. Boyle thought AI was more motivated by money and publicity than advancing human rights and was critical of AI because they failed to sufficiently criticise Israel for the 1982 Sabra and Shatila Massacre in Lebanon.
WebCite query result

Then he goes on to reference other academic sources which have criticzed AI at one time or another to falsely create a perception that there is consensus in the academic community regarding AI's lack of legitimacy. Those academics probably did criticize AI, for various reasons. Many AI reports are written by academics and academics frequently criticize each other. That hardly discredits AI.

Then he makes this series of ridiculous statements:

CB
...when these groups and their leadership, trip merrily away from their originating mandates and begin to attempt to force their ideology upon the masses or their leaders. They have over stepped their mandate, become the very thing they were created to overcome.

By focusing their ideology on single entities, and hiding that bias behind the claim of "It's easier to disclose the abuses of more open societies". The mutated mandate is clear. No longer are they the vanguards of rights and freedoms, they are the tools of the societies, countries and criminals that they ignore. Their bias, their lies of ommission are used to bolster the troops as it were.

It confuses fact for emotion and ideological motivations. Those with the limited skills of critical thought, deductive reasoning, look to groups such as AI, HRW and the UN for leadership, guidence and information. They blindly follow, and believe what they read, see and are told, because these groups preach peace and equality...

These organizations illuminate human rights abuses and their reports are based on field work that takes them to pretty much every country in the world including Canada. Judge AI's accuracy for your self:

Canada

Indigenous Peoples’ rights
There were continuing concerns about the failure to ensure prompt and impartial resolution of disputes over land and resource rights. In August, the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination expressed concern about plans to construct a gas pipeline through lands in Alberta over which the Lubicon Cree continue to assert rights. The Alberta Utilities Commission ignored these concerns when it approved the project in October.

In September, the Canadian Human Rights Commission ordered an inquiry into a complaint about disparity in funding for Indigenous child protection agencies.

The government continued to assert that the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples was not applicable in Canada because Canada had voted against its adoption.

"Six people died during the year after being shocked by police with a Taser."

In Ontario there was slow progress in implementing the 2007 report from the Ipperwash Inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the 1995 police shooting of Dudley George, an unarmed Indigenous man involved in a land protest.

Ontario Provincial Police used excessive force during land rights protests in and near Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory in 2007 and 2008.

Women’s rights
In October, the UN Committee on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women called on Canada to “take the necessary steps to remedy the deficiencies in the system” with respect to murdered or missing Indigenous women. The Committee also called for restrictions on funding the advocacy activities of women’s groups to be lifted and for the establishment of an oversight mechanism for women prisoners.

Counter-terror and security
In February the government enacted reforms to the immigration security certificate system, following a 2007 Supreme Court of Canada decision, but the system remained unfair. Five men subject to certificates were released while court proceedings continued, some on very restrictive bail conditions. One man, Hassan Almrei, had been detained since October 2001.

In March, the Federal Court dismissed a challenge to the practice of transferring battlefield detainees in Afghanistan into Afghan custody where they were at serious risk of torture. This decision was upheld by the Federal Court of Appeal in December.


In October, a report was released of an inquiry into the role of Canadian officials in the cases of Abdullah Almalki, Ahmed El-Maati and Muayyed Nureddin, all Canadian citizens who were detained and tortured abroad. The report identified numerous ways in which the actions of Canadian officials contributed to violations of their rights.

The government continued to refuse to intervene with US officials regarding the case of Canadian citizen Omar Khadr, arrested in Afghanistan when he was 15 years old and held for more than six years at Guantánamo Bay.

Refugees and asylum-seekers
In June, the Federal Court of Appeal reversed, on procedural grounds, a 2007 Federal Court ruling that the Safe Third Country refugee agreement between Canada and the USA violated the Charter of Rights and international law.

Police and security forces
A provincial public inquiry was initiated into the October 2007 death of Polish national Robert Dziekanski at Vancouver International Airport after being Tasered by officers of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP). The Office of the Commissioner for Public Complaints against the RCMP issued a report calling for restrictions on the use of Tasers. Six people died during the year after being shocked by police with a Taser.

Death penalty
In September, the Federal Court heard an application by Canadian Ronald Smith, who was sentenced to death in the US state of Montana in 1983. Ronald Smith challenged the new policy of the Canadian government of not seeking clemency for Canadians sentenced to death in countries which it considered to be democratic and to adhere to the rule of law. The Court had not issued a decision by the end of the year.

Canada | Amnesty International Report 2009

Sounds reasonably accurate to me. I'm sure some academics could criticize it, but that hardly means its inaccurate or biased against Canada. AI calls it like they see it and they criticize all human rights abuses.

Anyone who believes CB's claim that AI focuses on one entity and commits "lies of omission" should read Amnesty International's 2009 report and judge for yourself:
Amnesty International Report 2009 | Working to Protect Human Rights

As far as I can tell the only country they "ommitted" was Iceland.

People should be aware of what's going on. If Israel gets its way, none of their leaders or soldiers will ever be held accountable their crimes and organizations like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch will be trashed in the process.
 
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AnnaG

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AnnaG, I'm sorry. I misinterpreted what you were saying.

I'm not sure what you think this string is about. I recognize CB's post as a cut and paste from one of many smear articles flooding the news and internet in a massive campaign to silence and discredit Human Rights organizations and other entities which have recently written reports detailing Israel's war crimes and crimes against humanity.
What I think this thread started out as is a statement saying that people should not take everything that the UN, AI, etc. say as gospel truth. They have biases and I agree.
I read one small bit in the entire OP that referred to the Israeli/Palestine thing and took it to be only an example highlighting the idea that we should be analytical and sceptical of what special interest groups say (or for that matter, any group).
 

CDNBear

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Your post is conclusive proof that pro-Israeli propaganda to silence and discredit Israel's critics is working.
Typical...:roll:

You say that you won't believe a single source until what they say has been verified. Verified by who? As in "Who is left"? Every credible Human Rights group in existance has independantly looked at the situation and came to the same conclusion as the UN appointed fact finding mission headed up by an experienced internationally respected South African judge who also happens to be a Zionist Jew!
:lol: And considering I just plastered the UN in the OP, the UN is out as an impartial party as well. I guess you missed that.

So on one side, you have every Human Rights group in existance agreeing a UN fact finding mission that Israel commits war crimes and crimes against humanity and on the other side you have paid Israeli lobby groups claiming everyone is biased against Israel. Also we have the main stream media pretending to be objective but barely reporting the findings of these groups (but when they do its always with an Israeli rebuttal usually followed by a story about the holocaust and a thinly disguised pro-Israel propaganda piece). Rarely does the MSM give Palestinians the same opportunity to comment on pro-Israeli propaganda or the Human Rights reports.
Speaking of propaganda.

As a result you have a misperception that claims about Israel's war crimes and crimes are controversial and haven't been verified, when they aren't controversial and have been verified repeatedly.
Some, not al, and certainly not verified by an impartial source.

AnnaG, I'm sorry. I misinterpreted what you were saying.

I'm not sure what you think this string is about. I recognize CB's post as a cut and paste from one of many smear articles flooding the news and internet in a massive campaign to silence and discredit Human Rights organizations and other entities which have recently written reports detailing Israel's war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Cut and paste? Please feel free prove I cut that from anywhere else on the net, print media or TV. Those are my own words with one small caption, unlike your continued cut and paste propaganda war against Israel.

You're projecting eao.

All these articles lead back to Israel and their supporters. Their purpose is to interfere with efforts to hold Israeli leaders and soldiers accountable for their crimes.
No, their porpose is to discredit Israel, period.

That's true. But CB's post deliberately creates a misperception that Boyle thought AI was too critical of Israel. Boyle thought AI was more motivated by money and publicity than advancing human rights and was critical of AI because they failed to sufficiently criticise Israel for the 1982 Sabra and Shatila Massacre in Lebanon.
WebCite query result
I will concede that I accidently applied the feelings of Robert Bernstein, to Boyle, but I will address that in a minute. Though he doesn't address the bias, he certainly casts a dark shadow on AI.

Who I should have highlighted, was Robert Bernstein, who was a chairman on AI's board of directors from 78 to 98...

"Now the organisation, with increasing frequency, casts aside its important distinction between open and closed societies,"

"Nowhere is this more evident than in its work in the Middle East. The region is populated by authoritarian regimes with appalling human rights records.

Yet in recent years Human Rights Watch has written far more condemnations of Israel for violations of international law than of any other country in the region,"

"Only by returning to its founding mission and the spirit of humility that animated it can Human Rights Watch resurrect itself as a moral force in the Middle East and throughout the world,"
Nuff said.

Then he goes on to reference other academic sources which have criticzed AI at one time or another to falsely create a perception that there is consensus in the academic community regarding AI's lack of legitimacy. Those academics probably did criticize AI, for various reasons. Many AI reports are written by academics and academics frequently criticize each other. That hardly discredits AI.
You are absolutely correct, so lets have the facts discredit AI...

Their involvement in the first Gulf war. And lest not forget Cigelj.

Then he makes this series of ridiculous statements:
Your posts are ripe with ridiculous statements.

These organizations illuminate human rights abuses and their reports are based on field work that takes them to pretty much every country in the world including Canada. Judge AI's accuracy for your self:
:lol:

Their fact gathering has been proven faulty and the investigating skills proved to be shoddy at best.

Sounds reasonably accurate to me. I'm sure some academics could criticize it, but that hardly means its inaccurate or biased against Canada. AI calls it like they see it and they criticize all human rights abuses.
:lol:

Now that's cut and paste propaganda for ya!!! :lol:

Anyone who believes CB's claim that AI focuses on one entity and commits "lies of omission" should read Amnesty International's 2009 report and judge for yourself:
Amnesty International Report 2009 | Working to Protect Human Rights
And then filter it with NGO Monitor's report on it. And yes, I'm sure eao will be along to call out NGO Monitor as a pro Israeli group. But then again, their facts are traceble to the source, unlike AI's.
As far as I can tell the only country they "ommitted" was Iceland.
It's called focus, you should try some. AI, as has all the groups I mentioned in the OP, have unfairly, with great bias and unjustified contempt, place far more scrutiny on single countries, then they have on all the other nations of the world.

People should be aware of what's going on. If Israel gets its way, none of their leaders or soldiers will ever be held accountable their crimes and organizations like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch will be trashed in the process.
I would support the latter, all injustice should be met with contempt. So war criminals and bias, lying human rights groups should be tried publicly and convicted if guilty.

What I think this thread started out as is a statement saying that people should not take everything that the UN, AI, etc. say as gospel truth. They have biases and I agree.
I read one small bit in the entire OP that referred to the Israeli/Palestine thing and took it to be only an example highlighting the idea that we should be analytical and sceptical of what special interest groups say (or for that matter, any group).
Anna, you got it. But then again, you use reason, deductive reasoning, critical thought and commonsense to aquire knowledge. Unlike the neo nazi supporters of today.
 
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earth_as_one

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What I think this thread started out as is a statement saying that people should not take everything that the UN, AI, etc. say as gospel truth. They have biases and I agree.
I read one small bit in the entire OP that referred to the Israeli/Palestine thing and took it to be only an example highlighting the idea that we should be analytical and sceptical of what special interest groups say (or for that matter, any group).


That's fair enough. I agree with you. All sources have biases, which is why it makes sense to get information from multiple sources representing all sides before drawing conclusions.

If AI, HRW, a UN Fact Finding mission, the Red Cross, Oxfam and other entities investigate claims of human rights abuses and they all report finding physical/photographic evidence and eye witness testimony from both sides supporting claims of abuses and the side alleged to have committed the abuses is caught lying repeatedly and responds by denying the claims, refuses to cooperate with all independent investigations, claims they conducted their own investigation and found nothing and pays lobby groups to discredit AI, HRW, the UN Fact Finding Mission, the Red Cross, Oxfam.... what conclusions would you draw?

Would you believe the alleged abuser denials and their paid lobbyists, or the similar conclusions of AI, HRW, the UN fact finding commission, the Red Cross and Oxfam?

For example
Israel denies banned weapons use



Human Rights Watch says pictures like this point to white phosphorus use, but Israel denies this

Medics in Gaza say latest casualties include at least 60 people affected by suspected phosphorus shells fired illegally near civilian areas.

An Israeli army spokeswoman strongly denied the report, saying all its munitions complied with the law. An Israeli spokesman also denied Human Rights Watch allegations of multiple use of white phosphorus in the bombing...

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel denies banned weapons use


There have been repeated allegations in Gaza that civilians have suffered disfiguring burn injuries after being hit by white phosphorus Photo: AFP

Human rights activists had accused Israel of violating international law by bombarding built-up areas with the incendiary material in Operation Cast Lead. Palestinian hospitals treated dozens of Gazans with wounds consistent with use of the weapon....

Israel opens investigation into white phosphorus use - Telegraph

Israel admits using white phosphorous in attacks on Gaza



The incident being investigated is believed to be the firing of white phosphorous shells at a UN school in Beit Lahiya on January 17

Israel admits using white phosphorous in attacks on Gaza - Times Online

Israel army 'used human shields'



The offensive in Gaza meant operating in areas with large civilian populations

United Nations investigators have accused the Israeli army of using an 11-year-old boy as a human shield during its recent Gaza offensive. Their report says troops ordered the boy to walk in front of them for several hours under fire, entering buildings and opening suspect packages.

The UN team responsible for protection of children in war zones says it found "hundreds" of similar violations.

Israel has denied the charges, saying morals are "paramount" in its army....

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel army 'used human shields'


Israel soldiers speak out on Gaza

A group of soldiers who took part in Israel's assault in Gaza say widespread abuses were committed against civilians under "permissive" rules of engagement.

The troops said they had been urged to fire on any building or person that seemed suspicious and said Palestinians were sometimes used as human shields.
Breaking the Silence, a campaign group made up of Israeli soldiers, gathered anonymous accounts from 26 soldiers.

Israel denies breaking the laws of war and dismissed the report as hearsay...

allegations in the testimonies of the 14 conscripts and 12 reserve soldiers include:
Civilians were used as human shields, entering buildings ahead of soldiers
• Large swathes of homes and buildings were demolished as a precaution or to secure clear lines of fire for the future.
• Some of the troops had a generally aggressive, ill-disciplined attitude
• There was incidents of vandalism of property of Palestinians
• Soldiers fired at water tanks because they were bored, at a time of severe water shortages for Gazans
• White phosphorus was used in civilian areas in a way some soldiers saw as gratuitous and reckless
• Many of the soldiers said there had been very little direct engagement with Palestinian militants.
.....

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel soldiers speak out on Gaza

Fundraising Corruption at Human Rights Watch
Fundraising Corruption at Human Rights Watch - Jeffrey Goldberg

Haaretz (Israeli News source)
Human Rights Watch has accused Israel of launching an "organized campaign" of lies and misinformation against it in the wake of the organization's support of the Goldstone report, British newspaper the Guardian reported Friday.

The Goldstone report claims Israel and Hamas both committed war crimes during the winter conflict in Gaza, but levels harsher criticism toward Israel. I really hesitate to use words like conspiracy, but there is a feeling that there is an organized campaign, and we're seeing from different places what would appear to be coordinated attacks ... from some of the language and arguments used it would seem as if there has been discussion," Iain Levine, Human Rights Watch's program director, told the Guardian. "We are having to spend a lot of time repudiating the lies, the falsehoods, the misinformation."...

Human Rights Watch: Israel waging concerted misinformation campaign against organization - Haaretz - Israel News

That's the context of CB's original post.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
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Ontario
That's fair enough. I agree with you. All sources have biases, which is why it makes sense to get information from multiple sources representing all sides before drawing conclusions.
She meant oposing multiple sources eao. Hence getting a broad spectrum view of the issue. Unlike your myopic and one sided view, sourcing outlets that have been proven wrong time and time again.

If AI, HRW, a UN Fact Finding mission, the Red Cross, Oxfam and other entities investigate claims of human rights abuses and they all report finding physical/photographic evidence and eye witness testimony from both sides supporting claims of abuses and the side alleged to have committed the abuses is caught lying repeatedly and responds by denying the claims, refuses to cooperate with all independent investigations, claims they conducted their own investigation and found nothing and pays lobby groups to discredit AI, HRW, the UN Fact Finding Mission, the Red Cross, Oxfam.... what conclusions would you draw?
That you need to temper your intake of information from all the sources available. Which you don't.

Would you believe the alleged abuser denials and their paid lobbyists, or the similar conclusions of AI, HRW, the UN fact finding commission, the Red Cross and Oxfam?
Niether, I would believe the facts, of which prove everyone's lying.

For example
More cut and paste propaganda. This is exactly what you just accused me of, yet I use my own words based on a disection of the facts, to communicate, you merely parrot what you are spoon fed.

That's the context of CB's original post.
Wow, you couldn't be any further from the facts if you tried. But then again, your posts haven't shown any signs of growth, change, critical thought, deductive reasoning or rationale in years. Why would we expect something new now?
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Listening to opposing viewpoints would mean listening to both Israelis and Palestinians. I have done this. I just don't find most of what Israselis and their supporters claim as credible, given the overwhelming physical and photographic evidence and eyewitness testimony from third parties which contradicts their claims.

AI, HRW, the UN Fact Finding Mission, the Red Cross, Oxfam.... are independant third parties. As far as I can tell, they have no reason to lie. These third parties have examined the evidence and arrived at more or less similar conclusions:

Palestinians and Israelis have committed war crimes. Palestinians have fired missiles at Israeli civilian targets which have killed about a dozen Israeli civilians. Israel soldiers have committed a very long list of war crimes and Israeli leaders have committed crimes against humanity by denying food and medicine to hungry and sick civilians.

Palestinians have not denied these findings. Israel and their supporters have responded to allegations of war crimes with a massive misinformation and smear campaign against every organization which has criticized their war crimes and crimes against humanity, which is probably where CB gets his misinformation. Perhaps he can clarify where he got that information...

I post references to back up my statements, so people know how I arrived at my conclusions.

I'm in favor of getting to the truth. Lets have a trial and make all the evidence public.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
Listening to opposing viewpoints would mean listening to both Israelis and Palestinians. I have done this. I just don't find most of what Israselis and their supporters claim as credible, given the overwhelming physical and photographic evidence and eyewitness testimony from third parties which contradicts their claims.

AI, HRW, the UN Fact Finding Mission, the Red Cross, Oxfam.... are independant third parties. As far as I can tell, they have no reason to lie. These third parties have examined the evidence and arrived at more or less similar conclusions:

Palestinians and Israelis have committed war crimes. Palestinians have fired missiles at Israeli civilian targets which have killed about a dozen Israeli civilians. Israel soldiers have committed a very long list of war crimes and Israeli leaders have committed crimes against humanity by denying food and medicine to hungry and sick civilians.

Palestinians have not denied these findings. Israel and their supporters have responded to allegations of war crimes with a massive misinformation and smear campaign against every organization which has criticized their war crimes and crimes against humanity, which is probably where CB gets his misinformation. Perhaps he can clarify where he got that information...

I post references to back up my statements, so people know how I arrived at my conclusions.

I'm in favor of getting to the truth. Lets have a trial and make all the evidence public.
This is a repeated bleat, you have muttered time and time again. All the while dismissing anything that does not support your view, period.

Your posts are typical cut and pastes from pro Palestinian sites, organizations and bias media outlets. Most which fail the sniff test of a grade nine student. Several times your posts have contained articles that have circled back to themselves, while being tracked for sources. Mean while, organizations such as CAMERA, which documents everything back to its very origins, with far greater transparency and evidence, are routinely dismissed without so much as a single piece of proof, other then for you to call them Israeli shills.

I've grown tired of posting link after link to the facts, only for those not unlike yourself, to have them dismissed without so much as a glance. It's a waste of my time. Other then to see what the poster to whom they are directed are made of.

Members such as Colpy and myself, once defended Israel, without second thought. I for one defended them without question, for various reasons. It didn't take me long to see that that defense was miss placed, and that Israel was in many cases wrong, plain and simple.

But this in no way shape or form, supports the hyperbole, misinformation, lies and inconsistencies repeatedly put forth by you and others of your ilk.

Your claims of merely seeking justice, and accepting that the "terrorists" that threaten Israel, equally get your contempt, is made invalid by the imbalance in your posts, the hyperbole and gross exaggerations of your posts, and their titles.

Do I believe you're a Nazi eao?

No, I believe you inadvertently support a neo Nazi ideology with your continued imbalance in acceptance of fact and evidence. Your continued biased attacks against the only democracy in the region, while ignoring the atrocities of the opposition, highlight the bias in which you filter the intake of information. Your posts smack of bias, inconsistancy and thus filled malice.

How else can one view the poster, behind the post, when facts, evidence and reality, takes a backseat to hyperbole, half truths and emotions?

You simply ignored the facts I laid out in my posts, you caught one instance where I misplaced an impression, then when confronted with a greater piece of evidence, you choose to ignore it, to maintain your impression of a group like AI.

These groups, who do serve a greater good, and should rightly exist, have long since abandoned their mandate of exposing and confront all human right violations. In so doing, they have taken on the task of validating the enemies cause. Their reports and oft baseless accusations, are used to bolster the misguided ideologies that perpetuate the strife that permeates the Middle East, South America and the Balkans.

I seek what you seek, peace, and end to the blood shed and the violance. You seek it with bias and naivete. I seek it with balance and fact. Only one of us isn't assisting the enemy to the ideal.

Think about that.