Would joining the EU help to promote more Canadian unity?

[Machjo]

When we consider that EU member-states have already established common educaitonal standards for many trades and professions while Canadian Ministries of Education are still playing catch-up and still not catching up; and that citizens of EU member-states have EU-wide medicare whereas Canadians have province-wide medicare, would Canada's joining the EU help to promote Canadian unity?

Since Canada's Ministries of Education would be required to consult with other Ministries of Education acros the EU to establish common prfessional and trade standards, it woudl go without saying that that would include consulting with neighbouring provinces within Canada too. Same with medicare.

Also, when we consider that Quebec often feels threatened by the dominance of English culture in bilateral relations with the rest of Canada, it might feel more comfortable in multilateral relations in which it could freely develop closer ties with France, Belgium, and Switzerland, and would also find itself in a unanimity of minority ethnic groups in Europarl, unlike the case in the Canadian Parliament where it is a minority facing a Anglo ethnic majority. Many in Scotland have expressed support for the EU for similar reasons.

Would Canada's joining the EU possibly help promote Canadian unity?

 

[ironsides]

"Would Canada's joining the EU possibly help promote Canadian unity?"


Sure didn't help promote European unity. If you want to help promote Canadian unity, stop Canadians from thinking like the Confederate States of American thought. No more States or Provincial rights taking priority over National rights. Start thinking as one nation.

 

[CDNBear]

"Would Canada's joining the EU possibly help promote Canadian unity?"


Sure didn't help promote European unity. If you want to help promote Canadian unity, stop Canadians from thinking like the Confederate States of American thought. No more States or Provincial rights taking priority over National rights. Start thinking as one nation.

Hear, hear!!!

This would be more the easier, if Canadians in general would learn about their country. We can't wait for the school system to catch up and teach our history. People need to do it themselves.

If more Canadians would take the time to learn about this country, the good the bad and the ugly, they would have no identity issues, there would be a whole lot less American bashing and we as a people would stand far more united, in pride.

 

[Machjo]

"Would Canada's joining the EU possibly help promote Canadian unity?"


Sure didn't help promote European unity. If you want to help promote Canadian unity, stop Canadians from thinking like the Confederate States of American thought. No more States or Provincial rights taking priority over National rights. Start thinking as one nation.

What rights precicely? I can't imagine Alberta giving up control of oil rights anytime in the near future; likewise with Quebec's Hydro rights, or Aboriginal rights (though Quebec and Aboriginals add an added problem in that at least some of them don't even consider themselves Canadian, but identify with a separate group instead).

Where I think we might be able to establish more unity could be common educational standards for certain trades and professions. Nursing comes to mind. From what I understand, some improvements have been made with respect to nursing education in recent years, making it easier for one province to recognise credentials from another. What bout other trades and professions though?

And again, one reason the EU took so long to establish trade relations with Canada in spite of Canada promoting them for a long time already, was in part due to all the headaches caused by our division of powers. They always had to bounce back and forth between provincial and fedeal jurisdictions for various issues. How many other nations are being held back from recognizing Canada for similar reasons?

So even if Canada doesn't join the EU, certainly we could still try to promote more co-operation between provinces. Or what about changing the provincial titles from, let's say, "Minister of Education" to "Minister of Education and international educational co-operation", which would of course imply inter-provincial co-operation too.

Or alternatively, have a federal "Minister of inter-provincial and international educational co-operation". Even though education is not a federal matter, I don't see why the federal government could not promote more co-operation between provinces.

Same with Ministers of Health, etc.

 

[captain morgan]

Since Canada's Ministries of Education would be required to consult with other Ministries of Education acros the EU to establish common prfessional and trade standards, it woudl go without saying that that would include consulting with neighbouring provinces within Canada too. Same with medicare.

RE: Healthcare. Canada's system is quite different from that of most of, if not all the European partners. However, if you believe that the training and standards are superior, it would not be difficult to poach those people and offer them immigration preference to Canada. It's the cheaters way to go about it, but quite possible.

Also, when we consider that Quebec often feels threatened by the dominance of English culture in bilateral relations with the rest of Canada, it might feel more comfortable in multilateral relations in which it could freely develop closer ties with France, Belgium, and Switzerland, and would also find itself in a unanimity of minority ethnic groups in Europarl, unlike the case in the Canadian Parliament where it is a minority facing a Anglo ethnic majority. Many in Scotland have expressed support for the EU for similar reasons.

What you described (above) is perhaps the most dividing and destructive influence that Canada, as a nation, is grappling with. What has to happen is that the gvt must discontinue their practice of pandering to interest groups in hopes that it will quell any discontent.

At best, it is temporary, but the potential is that more and more self-described down-trodden groups holler for special treatment. It evolves into a never-ending cycle of 'recognizing' one group/culture at the expense of others.

the simple answer is to tell 'em to get with the program or bugger-off.

 

[Machjo]

Hear, hear!!!

This would be more the easier, if Canadians in general would learn about their country. We can't wait for the school system to catch up and teach our history. People need to do it themselves.

If more Canadians would take the time to learn about this country, the good the bad and the ugly, they would have no identity issues, there would be a whole lot less American bashing and we as a people would stand far more united, in pride.

There's a problem with that though. What happens when history itself is the cause of the division? For instance, Quebecers are well aware of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, and sovereigntists use it like a sledge hammer to promote sovereignty. First Nations use it too by reminding us that they were here first, and so should get first dibs at land use. So how exactly would we go about teaching history in such a way as to ensure that it promotes a common Canadian identity? In Quebec schools, they learn alot more about Quebec history than they do about other provinces' histories? And let's remember, education is a provincial jurisdiction.

 

[YukonJack]

Who needs to strenghten Canadian unity?

We have come thru, what three or four referendums, all confirming that we stand united.

When the number of Canadians who want to emigrate to Europe matches or surpasses the number of Europeans who want to immigrate to Canada, we will have a valid discussion on this stillborn topic.

 

[Machjo]

RE: Healthcare. Canada's system is quite different from that of most of, if not all the European partners. However, if you believe that the training and standards are superior, it would not be difficult to poach those people and offer them immigration preference to Canada. It's the cheaters way to go about it, but quite possible.

I never suggested that their education is necessarily superior, but rather that they have extablished common standard, meaning that whatever country they're trained in, they can be accepted in another.

As for poaching them, ironicaly enough, we'd then have to go their route and recognize their standards too, wouldn't we? And what aobut them? Would they recognize ours? Why not consult on establishing common standards, which would help mobility on all sides, especially important in a recession, but even in good times of course.

What you described (above) is perhaps the most dividing and destructive influence that Canada, as a nation, is grappling with. What has to happen is that the gvt must discontinue their practice of pandering to interest groups in hopes that it will quell any discontent.

And how do we do that? Pandering to special interest groups is the way to the top after all. The only way I can see of solving this would be to eliminate the special interest groups. And the only way I can see of doing that would be to promote a healthy sense of patriotism. The question is, how do we do that? A post above recomended history lessons. Problem with that is that history lesons themselves can be divisive if not approached carefully. I agree they can also be unifying if focussed on a common history. But again, how do we do that when education is a provincial jurisdiction?

At best, it is temporary, but the potential is that more and more self-described down-trodden groups holler for special treatment. It evolves into a never-ending cycle of 'recognizing' one group/culture at the expense of others.

I agree. Though in some cases, the arguments are legitimate, such as our mistreatment of Aboriginals, which the federal government itself has acknowledged as being paramunt to attempted systematic cultural genocide.

the simple answer is to tell 'em to get with the program or bugger-off.

Quebec almost chose the latter last referendum. While I agree with your sentiment, it's probably wise to tackle the issue more subtly and find out at a deeper level what the problems really are and solve them at their roots. I'm not saying I have an answer here, but just that we need to dig and find the root cause before we can find a root solution.

 

[taxslave]

There's a problem with that though. What happens when history itself is the cause of the division? For instance, Quebecers are well aware of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, and sovereigntists use it like a sledge hammer to promote sovereignty. First Nations use it too by reminding us that they were here first, and so should get first dibs at land use. So how exactly would we go about teaching history in such a way as to ensure that it promotes a common Canadian identity? In Quebec schools, they learn alot more about Quebec history than they do about other provinces' histories? And let's remember, education is a provincial jurisdiction.

There is part of the problem: Too much is provincial jurisdiction. Especially in things that would create a common goal or identity. I think that a student should be able to move from the East coast to the West and open a textbook to the same place as where they left off. SO far we can't even do that from one school district to another in B.C. It is very hard to promote a Canadian identity when at the same time we promote multiculturalism.
As for who gets first dibs on land use we could look to
Europe where succeeding groups have overrun areas for centuries or perhaps more accurately millennia. In central Europe they are so homogenized it is hard to tell who was there first.

 

[Machjo]

There is part of the problem: Too much is provincial jurisdiction. Especially in things that would create a common goal or identity. I think that a student should be able to move from the East coast to the West and open a textbook to the same place as where they left off. SO far we can't even do that from one school district to another in B.C.

This reminds me of the Kulturkampf between Bismark and the Catholic Church. They both recognized the importance of controling the schools. Bismark wanted control so that he could introduce a nationalist philosophy to them, while the Church wanted control os it could introduce catechism. It's amazing that so few in Canada have recognized the importance of education in this respect. Sure Quebec has, and it would give up power over everythig else before it would ever relinquish control over its schools to the federal government. Same with the First Nations. They have fought tooth and nail to be able to control their own schools. And heck, I don't blame them any more than I blame the Catholic Church and Bismark for fighting over control of schools in Prussia. Let's face it, anyone with half a brain recognizes that he who controls the schools controls the minds of the next generation. Provincial governments have recognized this; will the federal? It's never put up a real fight yet to the best of my knowledge.

And even if the federal government did gain control, what would be the content of the new curriculum? I can gurantee that Quebc and the Frist Nations would give up anything to control their schools. They're not stupid.

 

[captain morgan]

I never suggested that their education is necessarily superior, but rather that they have extablished common standard, meaning that whatever country they're trained in, they can be accepted in another.

As for poaching them, ironicaly enough, we'd then have to go their route and recognize their standards too, wouldn't we? And what aobut them? Would they recognize ours? Why not consult on establishing common standards, which would help mobility on all sides, especially important in a recession, but even in good times of course.

My mistake in suggesting (on your behalf) that their system is superior, perhaps I should have used the term 'preferable'. Regardless, in terms of healthcare, Canada (and the USA) do recognize (or have coordinated) the educational standards in areas such as healthcare. Certainly there may be a few hoops to jump through, however, far fewer than an Dr.'s from India or China (despite their understanding/education is very similar to the West).

Mobility is a positive thing, however, inevitably the migration will occur to those places wherein the people will receive the greatest benefits in terms of financial, lifestyle, tax rates, etc... My point is that Canada's participation would also have to incorporate these areas in order to level the playing field.

Is this reasonable?

And how do we do that? Pandering to special interest groups is the way to the top after all. The only way I can see of solving this would be to eliminate the special interest groups. And the only way I can see of doing that would be to promote a healthy sense of patriotism. The question is, how do we do that? A post above recomended history lessons. Problem with that is that history lesons themselves can be divisive if not approached carefully. I agree they can also be unifying if focussed on a common history. But again, how do we do that when education is a provincial jurisdiction?

Nail on the head there Machjo. While there will always be inequities in any society, unless the focal point is based on common elements and a cooperative spirit; and the system rewards the whiners, we will never move foward.

In terms of history lessons... Sure, they will be chalk-full of wrong-doings and poor examples of traetment... We can't change that, however, time to move on. Ultimately, we are all the oppressors and we are all the victims - doesn't matter who you are or what your culture.

I agree. Though in some cases, the arguments are legitimate, such as our mistreatment of Aboriginals, which the federal government itself has acknowledged as being paramunt to attempted systematic cultural genocide.

This is a contentious isse for all parties involved. Mistreatment and abuse are things that must be addressed and dealt with openly and fairly... However (you knew there'd be one of these), in my mind, the notion of cultural genocide occurs in those instances wherein a group is systematically exterminated. This is not the case with canada's history.

It simply isn't.

Quebec almost chose the latter last referendum. While I agree with your sentiment, it's probably wise to tackle the issue more subtly and find out at a deeper level what the problems really are and solve them at their roots. I'm not saying I have an answer here, but just that we need to dig and find the root cause before we can find a root solution.

I disagree. if Quebec and her residents wish to seperate, that is their business. However, teh feds need to set out the rules in advance. The jurisdiction of Quebec is in the nation of Canada. Quebec has also directly benefited from teh services, economic and otherwise. of teh nation for hundreds of years and that must be recognized.

.. Not to sound cruel, but in the end, the French were defeated on the Plains of Abraham. The remaining French population were/are welcome to remain with the understanding that they will be living under the British rules... Thde bottom-line; Don't like that the either leave or take the fight to the street and face the consequences.

 

[Machjo]

Captain Morgan, are you sure about your signature? I'd think that those who can't vote Marxist-Leninist, maybe NDP as a strategic vote in some ridings, and Liberal as a strategic vote in others, no?

 

[Machjo]

And yes your post above is reasonable overall.

 

[Machjo]

And yes the answer in your post above is reasonable overall, with minor disagreements.

 

[captain morgan]

Not to worry Machjo - I'm certain about it.

 

[Said1]

I think the present free trade agreement between Canada and the EU is as far as I would like to progress as far as 'partnership' with the EU is concerned.

The French/English situation provides a hegemonic relationship and acceptable duality between two large(opposing) groups. Without it, we're nothing. :lol:

 

[Risus]

Thats a pretty silly idea....

 

[Polygong]

Hear, hear!!!

This would be more the easier, if Canadians in general would learn about their country. We can't wait for the school system to catch up and teach our history. People need to do it themselves.

If more Canadians would take the time to learn about this country, the good the bad and the ugly, they would have no identity issues, there would be a whole lot less American bashing and we as a people would stand far more united, in pride.

I'm not going to write anything else to answer the question posed by this thread because the above quote sums up my sentiments. Though I'd say I learned alot about our history in school, but maybe I just had a really good teacher.