The Angry Beaver
Posts: 3,660 
Location: Atlantic Canada
Location: Atlantic Canada
May 14th, 2008, 09:36 AM
What kind of democracy is that when you have your leaders telling you what your votes value is and that you either vote for them, or you vote for the other major party, or your voice doesn't get heard? Some Democracy indeed.... fill the public with more ignorance and fear and you keep control, with democratic masks to fool people into thinking they're free
Quoting Colpy
Sounds about right for our current systems of government.... they apparently know what's good for us, that's why they're in the positions they currently are... that's why they don't tell us about anything that they are doing "Because of National Security" and not wanting to scare the public like a bunch of sheep in the dark.
BALONEY!
So, what you are saying, in essence, is that the people don't have the common sense necessary to rule themselves.......that they must be guided by the enlightened, those who have been blessed from above with the inherent knowledge of what is good for all.
So, what you are saying, in essence, is that the people don't have the common sense necessary to rule themselves.......that they must be guided by the enlightened, those who have been blessed from above with the inherent knowledge of what is good for all.
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Oh they can let people do that, but they're in the positions to make sure they never see the light of day or get very far off in their goals.... hince why it's always been Democrats/Republicans/Liberals/Conservatives for the last god knows how long. They have the corps in their pockets and the corps know they will give them the best deals, while the new parties are trying to come in and stop their corrupt ways, so they work together to make sure they don't make the ballots, they tell the public "If you vote for them, you're just throwing away your vote"
Because, of course, in your little rant about the uselessness of democracy when all parties have the same corporate agenda, you conveniently ignore the fact that one is free in this society to set up at political party on the basis of any ideology they please.
What kind of democracy is that when you have your leaders telling you what your votes value is and that you either vote for them, or you vote for the other major party, or your voice doesn't get heard? Some Democracy indeed.... fill the public with more ignorance and fear and you keep control, with democratic masks to fool people into thinking they're free
Senate Member
Posts: 5,233
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
May 14th, 2008, 10:06 AM
This system will never be improved by those who think it is no better than the worst tyrannies on earth.
How many police/military were killed at Tianamen square?
Believe me, the chinese would have publicized every bruise.
Really, it is so self-serving to pretend that you can never know what is going on, that the information of your debate opponent is always incomplete.....there are some things that are facts......and that need to be accepted as such before any debate can go on....
When I was learning to train guards, one of the exercises our instructers did on the range was to give the order to the firing line to fire.....then (on the instructions of the guy teaching us) I went down the line screaming "cease fire" in their ears. Not one did.
If you are in a group of allies, and one guy opens fire, EVERYBODY does, and it is difficult to make them stop. That was the point, that each man had to be taught to judge for himself, to fire or not on his own decisions, NOT to shoot and keep shooting just because if his friend is shooting, he should be shooting to......
I'm not trying to excuse the Guardsmen....but this is hardly the same as rolling tanks in and setting out to kill hundreds of protesters.....at Kent State 4 died........leading to investigations, inquiries, protest songs, it was seen as a mistake and a tragedy.
Pay a CARTEL, for God's sake, a fair price for oil?
Support the Mujahedeen against the USSR in Afghanistan?
Go to war to defend muslims in Kosovo?
Defend an Islamic State against secular Iraq?
When attacked, there is but one alternative......hit back harder.
This is EXACTLY the problem.
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Hince why we're circle jerking.... Blue Ball can be fatal I'm told.
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Oh, absolutely. Not perfect, and unfortunately sliding.....but still soooooo superior to any of the alternatives........we require some serious work on our system. But one of the problems is people that can't see the inherent good in our system....to fix something you have to work on it, not just beat it until it falls apart.
Simple, the type of democracy we are all used to isn't perfect and thus leaves room for problems and faults.
This system will never be improved by those who think it is no better than the worst tyrannies on earth.
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Not so.
Doesn't sound very different from what we have in our own countries. How do you know they were peaceful demostrations? You have the media in China and the media of those in the protests.... it's like a rape case where you have one sides word to trust over the other.
How many police/military were killed at Tianamen square?
Believe me, the chinese would have publicized every bruise.
Really, it is so self-serving to pretend that you can never know what is going on, that the information of your debate opponent is always incomplete.....there are some things that are facts......and that need to be accepted as such before any debate can go on....
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Kent State was in 1970. The National Guard troops did not fire on the students on orders. In fact, there is a picture of the officer present beating one of the firing Guardsmen with his baton, trying to get him to cease fire.
Not to mention that even if we are more ahead of them in these aspects of dealing with protestors and such, that it wasn't too long ago in the 60's when the US sent in the National Guard on university students and shot them. So much for that great democracy and freedom of speech.
When I was learning to train guards, one of the exercises our instructers did on the range was to give the order to the firing line to fire.....then (on the instructions of the guy teaching us) I went down the line screaming "cease fire" in their ears. Not one did.
If you are in a group of allies, and one guy opens fire, EVERYBODY does, and it is difficult to make them stop. That was the point, that each man had to be taught to judge for himself, to fire or not on his own decisions, NOT to shoot and keep shooting just because if his friend is shooting, he should be shooting to......
I'm not trying to excuse the Guardsmen....but this is hardly the same as rolling tanks in and setting out to kill hundreds of protesters.....at Kent State 4 died........leading to investigations, inquiries, protest songs, it was seen as a mistake and a tragedy.
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Like what?
Much like many other thigns today which were started by our governments to acomplish their own agendas? Still no difference.
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Some things are true, some are not. see above.
So sez Bush and his oh-so great intelligence agencies... which told us Osama was in Afghanistan, Saddam has WMD and Iran is developing nukes.... only to say they're not building nukes, but could..... hell any country "Could"
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What did the USA do? Support the democratic state of Israel?
And you make it sound like the US was so innocent in the attack, like there wasn't a reason behind the attack in the first place, or that the US didn't do something to cause them to find a way to attack.
Pay a CARTEL, for God's sake, a fair price for oil?
Support the Mujahedeen against the USSR in Afghanistan?
Go to war to defend muslims in Kosovo?
Defend an Islamic State against secular Iraq?
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BS....we already established above the "attack" on Germans was staged....really.
Now it's "Regardless who started the problem, they attacked us.... poor innocent us... let's defend our nation and go on the rampage" ~ Which is still similar in comparison to what occured in WWII.
When attacked, there is but one alternative......hit back harder.
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OK, it was PR...........you can't differentiate between Bush, who needed to use Sheean as a PR stunt, and Hitler, who just chopped off their heads?
Who? Well known indeed.... Cindy isn't doing a good enough job apparently. And meeting with someone is one thing (PR) actually doing something is something totally different.
This is EXACTLY the problem.
The Angry Beaver
Posts: 3,660
Location: Atlantic Canada
Location: Atlantic Canada
May 15th, 2008, 03:06 PM
The problem though, is that I'm not for the removal of democracy in our nations.... just the removal of Representational Democracy. Those in power or those we elect still have far too much power in their hands to be even considdered anything close to a true democracy. If anything, it's Communism/Socialism with a sprinkle of things that seem democratic to make us quiet and pleased that we're better off then some other nations.
There are much better types of Democracy available out there, and if they're not perfect, with todays level of collective understanding, today's technology, etc.... a good collection of smart thinking people could evolve them into something that close to perfection in regards to what Democracy should be.
To me, it's like "Should we try and continue to keep this hunk of junk car up and running until we get something good out of it or should we buy a newer and better car and soup it up to a cool ass muscle car?"
This is what I feel we are doing now with our current form of government. We stumble across corruption, huge national debts, high taxes, political scandals, bribes, tax dollars blown on holidays and trips for politicians, etc. ~ And when we want something done about it.... they themselves look into it, tell us how it is and then tell us how they're going to fix/patch it up..... only for more of the same to come our way once again.
Sometimes it's just better to trash the whole thing and start from sctrach.... learning from the past failed system and making sure we cover those old problems in the new system and to make sure there is little room for corruption... and to do that, most of the power and decision making should be thrown back to the public.... the people.
.... I'll have to respond to the rest later, as I gotta go.
Quoting Colpy
See, my problem is we have been trying to improve on this current system for how long now? Since we started using it.... we can not actually improve it due to all those problems and faults I mentioned earlier. With the amount of influence by major corps and those with loads of money to shell out to whoever can cut them the best deal, us, the regular folk don't have a fighting chance in this system to make sure things get fixed the right way. It is no better then the worst tyrannies on earth, because we are still not in control of our lives anymore then those in comparison. They are living, we are living.... we all have food and water on our tables, we can reproduce and we can work our asses off until we all die.... overall the way in which we all live are not so much different, besides which country considders what rights more important over others.
Oh, absolutely. Not perfect, and unfortunately sliding.....but still soooooo superior to any of the alternatives........we require some serious work on our system. But one of the problems is people that can't see the inherent good in our system....to fix something you have to work on it, not just beat it until it falls apart.
This system will never be improved by those who think it is no better than the worst tyrannies on earth.
This system will never be improved by those who think it is no better than the worst tyrannies on earth.
The problem though, is that I'm not for the removal of democracy in our nations.... just the removal of Representational Democracy. Those in power or those we elect still have far too much power in their hands to be even considdered anything close to a true democracy. If anything, it's Communism/Socialism with a sprinkle of things that seem democratic to make us quiet and pleased that we're better off then some other nations.
There are much better types of Democracy available out there, and if they're not perfect, with todays level of collective understanding, today's technology, etc.... a good collection of smart thinking people could evolve them into something that close to perfection in regards to what Democracy should be.
To me, it's like "Should we try and continue to keep this hunk of junk car up and running until we get something good out of it or should we buy a newer and better car and soup it up to a cool ass muscle car?"
This is what I feel we are doing now with our current form of government. We stumble across corruption, huge national debts, high taxes, political scandals, bribes, tax dollars blown on holidays and trips for politicians, etc. ~ And when we want something done about it.... they themselves look into it, tell us how it is and then tell us how they're going to fix/patch it up..... only for more of the same to come our way once again.
Sometimes it's just better to trash the whole thing and start from sctrach.... learning from the past failed system and making sure we cover those old problems in the new system and to make sure there is little room for corruption... and to do that, most of the power and decision making should be thrown back to the public.... the people.
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By all means.... supply resources, examples... references to back up your claims, such as I am doing. If not... then your side will appear more as opinion and not really supplied with actual facts.
Really, it is so self-serving to pretend that you can never know what is going on, that the information of your debate opponent is always incomplete.....there are some things that are facts......and that need to be accepted as such before any debate can go on....
Quote:
Regardless of how it happened, it still happened.
Kent State was in 1970. The National Guard troops did not fire on the students on orders. In fact, there is a picture of the officer present beating one of the firing Guardsmen with his baton, trying to get him to cease fire.
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Well in the above case, who told them to open fire in the first place? Secondly.... the commanding officer is responsible for the troops under his command. You can't just shrug your shoulders and say "Well they didn't hear me"
When I was learning to train guards, one of the exercises our instructers did on the range was to give the order to the firing line to fire.....then (on the instructions of the guy teaching us) I went down the line screaming "cease fire" in their ears. Not one did.
Quote:
I don't even see why they sent in the N.Guard in the first place over some university students.
If you are in a group of allies, and one guy opens fire, EVERYBODY does, and it is difficult to make them stop. That was the point, that each man had to be taught to judge for himself, to fire or not on his own decisions, NOT to shoot and keep shooting just because if his friend is shooting, he should be shooting to......
I'm not trying to excuse the Guardsmen....but this is hardly the same as rolling tanks in and setting out to kill hundreds of protesters.....at Kent State 4 died........leading to investigations, inquiries, protest songs, it was seen as a mistake and a tragedy.
I'm not trying to excuse the Guardsmen....but this is hardly the same as rolling tanks in and setting out to kill hundreds of protesters.....at Kent State 4 died........leading to investigations, inquiries, protest songs, it was seen as a mistake and a tragedy.
.... I'll have to respond to the rest later, as I gotta go.
