Newbie
Posts: 12 
April 20th, 2008, 11:46 PM
Quoting Zzarchov
I agree with you, and that "Great leap forward" and the "Cultural Revolution" period was horrible. My parents were born at that time and I've known a lot from what they have suffered, and that is one of the reasons why I am strongly against Communism. Today there are still so many issues that deserve to be criticized in China, but I don't think the ethnic independence thing in Tibet/Xinjiang/Inner Mongolia needs to be one of the issues under criticism, as you and I will probably never reach an agreement on "colony in Xinjiang"
Oh I don't disagree Tibet was a horrible, horrible place to live. Downright disgusting, it was a feudal theocracy.
That being said, that doesn't mean colonization is the right response. China during the "Great leap forward" and the "Cultural Revolution" was also a horrible horrible place, my in-laws are Chinese and lived through the hellish conditions there in. That doesn't mean if Russia had conquered and colonized China at that time, that it would be a good thing.
China is in the wrong because it began colonizing the world (a horrible thing) just as the colonial era of humanity was finally coming to an end (by and large) with the dismantling of European and Japanese colonial holdings.
That being said, that doesn't mean colonization is the right response. China during the "Great leap forward" and the "Cultural Revolution" was also a horrible horrible place, my in-laws are Chinese and lived through the hellish conditions there in. That doesn't mean if Russia had conquered and colonized China at that time, that it would be a good thing.
China is in the wrong because it began colonizing the world (a horrible thing) just as the colonial era of humanity was finally coming to an end (by and large) with the dismantling of European and Japanese colonial holdings.
House Member
Posts: 3,383 
April 21st, 2008, 08:20 AM
Of course, right up until Algieria finally was made independant, France could not see it as a colony, only as part of France itself.
Rather than give up Hawaii, America unlawfully annexed it (via a referendum which had no independance option and allowed military presence to vote and swing the balance away from natives)
I would expect it would be quite difficult for anyone with any nationalistic or patriotic feelings to wave goodbye to part of their countries holdings.
Of course, right up until Algieria finally was made independant, France could not see it as a colony, only as part of France itself.
Rather than give up Hawaii, America unlawfully annexed it (via a referendum which had no independance option and allowed military presence to vote and swing the balance away from natives)
I would expect it would be quite difficult for anyone with any nationalistic or patriotic feelings to wave goodbye to part of their countries holdings.
jimmoyer
Posts: 5,040
Location: Winchester Virginia
Location: Winchester Virginia
April 21st, 2008, 08:30 AM
There's one more thing about perceptions of colonialism here.
What did the Uighers get to see in the 90s ?
Right across the border, they got to see country after country pop up out of the former Soviet Union.
Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakstan.
Step off the bus gus,
making new plans, " Stans,"
just drop off the keys, Lee
and let yourself be free...
There's one more thing about perceptions of colonialism here.
What did the Uighers get to see in the 90s ?
Right across the border, they got to see country after country pop up out of the former Soviet Union.
Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakstan.
Step off the bus gus,
making new plans, " Stans,"
just drop off the keys, Lee
and let yourself be free...
Newbie
Posts: 4
Location: Beijing
Location: Beijing
April 23rd, 2008, 02:34 AM
I am talking here not mean to interfere in the politic things.I believe as a instrument for the governors, at ideological status, politics cannot be understood by anyone clearly.
I advise you to view the following link: http://marongspace.spaces.live.com/
that is my article to show you a real tibet in a traveller's eyes.
Peace is the primary necessity of the world's people.
China is a big country with 9.6 million square kilometers and 1.3 billion people.Although sometimes we also feel disappointed at some of our government's policies, we can understand how difficult it is to rule such a large country and be absolutely fair.You also cannot promise your government is absolutely fair to you all,to everything.Nothing is perfect in this world.We need time and experiences to improve and develop.Why cannot you just be a little tolerant to our country?
And my other point is:
Tibet is one part of China,please dont intervene in China's internal affairs.China welcomes your friendly suggestion but not unreasonable accusation.
Olympic Games is an international event,sports is entirely removed from politics.I hope everyone respects our endeavor and respects the union of people all over the world.
Thank you.
I am talking here not mean to interfere in the politic things.I believe as a instrument for the governors, at ideological status, politics cannot be understood by anyone clearly.
I advise you to view the following link: http://marongspace.spaces.live.com/
that is my article to show you a real tibet in a traveller's eyes.
Peace is the primary necessity of the world's people.
China is a big country with 9.6 million square kilometers and 1.3 billion people.Although sometimes we also feel disappointed at some of our government's policies, we can understand how difficult it is to rule such a large country and be absolutely fair.You also cannot promise your government is absolutely fair to you all,to everything.Nothing is perfect in this world.We need time and experiences to improve and develop.Why cannot you just be a little tolerant to our country?
And my other point is:
Tibet is one part of China,please dont intervene in China's internal affairs.China welcomes your friendly suggestion but not unreasonable accusation.
Olympic Games is an international event,sports is entirely removed from politics.I hope everyone respects our endeavor and respects the union of people all over the world.
Thank you.
House Member
Posts: 3,383
April 23rd, 2008, 10:38 AM
Of course Tibet is one part of China... NOW.
And tommorow, Mongolia will be one part of China, Then Korea will be one part of China, then the Phillipenes will be one part of China.
The whole point is Tibet is a colony, not a part of a China. Its not an internal affair.
Three giant Stone pillars (One at the Chinese Palace, one in Tibet) that reads in part
"Both Tibet and China shall keep the country and frontiers of which they are now possessed. The whole region to the East of that being the country of Great China and the whole region to the West being assuredly the country of Great Tibet, from either side there shall be no hostile invasion, and no seizure of territory... and in order that this agreement establishing a great era when Tibetans shall be happy in Tibet and Chinese shall be happy in China shall never be changed, the Three Jewels, the body of Saints, the sun and the moon, planets and stars have been invoked as witness."
Pretty clear cut.
Of course Tibet is one part of China... NOW.
And tommorow, Mongolia will be one part of China, Then Korea will be one part of China, then the Phillipenes will be one part of China.
The whole point is Tibet is a colony, not a part of a China. Its not an internal affair.
Three giant Stone pillars (One at the Chinese Palace, one in Tibet) that reads in part
"Both Tibet and China shall keep the country and frontiers of which they are now possessed. The whole region to the East of that being the country of Great China and the whole region to the West being assuredly the country of Great Tibet, from either side there shall be no hostile invasion, and no seizure of territory... and in order that this agreement establishing a great era when Tibetans shall be happy in Tibet and Chinese shall be happy in China shall never be changed, the Three Jewels, the body of Saints, the sun and the moon, planets and stars have been invoked as witness."
Pretty clear cut.
Newbie
Posts: 4
Location: Beijing
Location: Beijing
April 23rd, 2008, 09:25 PM
1. “And tommorow, Mongolia will be one part of China, Then Korea will be one part of China, then the Phillipenes will be one part of China.”
Please tell me who has given you this idea or who has showed you this proposal? Chinese government? Canadian government? Or only your own imagination?
Please remember during WWII, it was Japanese who invaded other Asian countries and China is also a victim. However after the war, China has passed the sponge over all Japan’s war reparation.
Our national character decides we are mild and friendly, we don’t mean to offend any other countries. We want peace; I hope you also want that. Mongolia, Korea, Philippines…we are not interested.
2. You know too much in the forum, but you know little about Tibetan history, so you can say: “Tibet is a colony”.
My link in my last post shows you a real Tibet in 2006-that was before the riot. I hope you can be patient to read it and think about what you so called “Colonial” Tibetans’ ordinary life.
Here is an article below from a foreigner, talking some about Tibetan history. I just give you the information objectively; hopefully you can find out by yourself whether your definition to Tibet about “colony” is right or not.
3.( this point is not to ZZarchov) Regarding this thread, I don’t know why someone mix CCP topic with Tibet things, just as I don’t understand why some people mix Tibetan unrest with Olympics.
CCP is a political thing; agreeing or disagreeing with it is anyone’s freedom. Just as when we have some different ideas with someone, we never ask him first: “do you support Conservative Party or Liberal Party?”.
Deal with this issue on its own merits, mixing Tibetan and Olympic issues with CCP is really kind of absurd.
Quoted passage:
“Tibet was for centuries an autonomous concordat between Nepal and China. Sometimes China ruled Nepal as well. The king of Tibet used therefore to have one Chinese wife and one Nepalese and then a number of Tibetan ones.
With the fifth Dalai Lama, the religious and the political power were unified under the rule of one person, The Dalai Lama. Tibet became a theocratic dictatorship and closed itself for the rest of the world. No foreigners were anymore allowed in.
At the end of the nineteenth century, the famous Swedish traveller Sven Hedin made an attempt to reach Lhasa but was sent politely back, out of Tibet by Dalai Lama.
A French woman, Alexandra David-Néel was more successful. She visited Lhasa dressed as a Tibetan pilgrim and she was fluent in the Tibetan language. She told how she was afraid many times that she should be discovered and then she knew that she like other suspects or opponents should "happen to fall down" from the walls of the Potala palace.
Tibet was not a paradise. Tibet was an inhuman dictatorship!
The weakened Chinese Qing Dynasty had more and more lost its influence in Tibet. Tibet became more and more interesting for the Russian empire in the north and the British in the south.
In 1903 a British army expedition directed by the colonel Younghusband reached Lhasa. The British lost 4 soldiers but slaughtered more the 700 Tibetans that tryed to stop them, mainly by magic. The British installed "a commercial representation" in Lhasa. The Chinese evacuated Dalai Lama to the Qinghai plateau where he hade limited rights of move, probably for preventing him from having contacts with the British occupants.
The Finnish national hero, Marshal Mannerheim, visited him there in 1907 during his famous horseback trip through central Asia. He was then a colonel in the Tsar Russian army and his trip was in reality a spy trip. Therefore the 13th Dalai Lama was interesting.
The power of Dalai Lama was weakened. In 1950 the PLA marched in to Tibet without war. The 14th Dalai Lama seems at the beginning to have accepted this just as a security for his power as the theocratic dictator he was. He enlarged and restructured the Norbulingka Summer Palace in a luxury way in 1954.
The Chinese decided anyhow to finish with the cruel theocratic dictatorship under which the opponents fell down from Potala. The borders where during this dictatorship closed for all foreigners and the only schools where the religious ones. It is well known that it is easier to rule a population with a low education and is ignoring the outside world. In Tibet, about 5% of the population owned everything and the rest literally nothing. About 40% of the Tibetans were monks and nuns living as parasites on the rest of the population that had to feed them. Tibet was not a paradise!
Now China decided that the Tibetans should have the same rights and place in the society as the rest of the country's population. The monasteries should be emptied from their excessively large monk and nun populations.
Tibet could earlier be reached only by some horse trails and was for the rest insulated. The Chinese built rapidly a trafficable road. The insulation was broken.
In 1959, the young Dalai Lama caused a peoples upraising, using the religion as power since he was loosing his own powerful position. The upraising was however stopped, may be in not a too clever and smooth manner. Dalai Lama then left Tibet and his fellow citizens and escaped to India wherefrom he has continued to fight for his come back and reinstall the theocratic dictatorship that China will never allow again.
Then followed the ten years of Cultural Revolution that was an unhappy time for all China that closed itself to the rest of the world.
Now Lhasa has a modern airport and a railway. China has invested a lot in Tibet. The standard of living has been raised a lot in Tibet and last Xmas I have seen Tibetans spending sun-holidays on Hainan Island! Very lucky looking old women in traditional dresses walking on the beach with their husbands and the youngsters dressed like other young people enjoying the beach life.
The possibilities for Dalai Lama to take back his power has diminished and he does not anymore have the population with him. China and India are developing their cooperation and with the closer friendship, India will for sure also not more admit Dalai Lama to disturb this development. His possibilities to act against China will be diminished.
Therefore he undertook recently an around the world diplomatic travel since he has seen the possibility of harming the now good international image of China and provoking boycotts of the Olympic games in Beijing.
The Lhasa riots where very well prepared. Curriers where crossing the borders illegally for to see Dalai Lama and get his orders. A group of foreign mountain climbers filmed recently across the border an unlucky incident when one of these curriers got shot and another that crossed the border openly declared that he wanted to go to see the Dalai Lama. I have seen that in television just before I left for China in November.
China is no longer a closed country. There is no need for illegal border crossings if you are not doing something illegally! You just ask for a passport and take the necessary visas and cross the border at a legal border crossing or better, just take a regular flight from Lhasa to Kathmandu!”
…
1. “And tommorow, Mongolia will be one part of China, Then Korea will be one part of China, then the Phillipenes will be one part of China.”
Please tell me who has given you this idea or who has showed you this proposal? Chinese government? Canadian government? Or only your own imagination?
Please remember during WWII, it was Japanese who invaded other Asian countries and China is also a victim. However after the war, China has passed the sponge over all Japan’s war reparation.
Our national character decides we are mild and friendly, we don’t mean to offend any other countries. We want peace; I hope you also want that. Mongolia, Korea, Philippines…we are not interested.
2. You know too much in the forum, but you know little about Tibetan history, so you can say: “Tibet is a colony”.
My link in my last post shows you a real Tibet in 2006-that was before the riot. I hope you can be patient to read it and think about what you so called “Colonial” Tibetans’ ordinary life.
Here is an article below from a foreigner, talking some about Tibetan history. I just give you the information objectively; hopefully you can find out by yourself whether your definition to Tibet about “colony” is right or not.
3.( this point is not to ZZarchov) Regarding this thread, I don’t know why someone mix CCP topic with Tibet things, just as I don’t understand why some people mix Tibetan unrest with Olympics.
CCP is a political thing; agreeing or disagreeing with it is anyone’s freedom. Just as when we have some different ideas with someone, we never ask him first: “do you support Conservative Party or Liberal Party?”.
Deal with this issue on its own merits, mixing Tibetan and Olympic issues with CCP is really kind of absurd.
Quoted passage:
“Tibet was for centuries an autonomous concordat between Nepal and China. Sometimes China ruled Nepal as well. The king of Tibet used therefore to have one Chinese wife and one Nepalese and then a number of Tibetan ones.
With the fifth Dalai Lama, the religious and the political power were unified under the rule of one person, The Dalai Lama. Tibet became a theocratic dictatorship and closed itself for the rest of the world. No foreigners were anymore allowed in.
At the end of the nineteenth century, the famous Swedish traveller Sven Hedin made an attempt to reach Lhasa but was sent politely back, out of Tibet by Dalai Lama.
A French woman, Alexandra David-Néel was more successful. She visited Lhasa dressed as a Tibetan pilgrim and she was fluent in the Tibetan language. She told how she was afraid many times that she should be discovered and then she knew that she like other suspects or opponents should "happen to fall down" from the walls of the Potala palace.
Tibet was not a paradise. Tibet was an inhuman dictatorship!
The weakened Chinese Qing Dynasty had more and more lost its influence in Tibet. Tibet became more and more interesting for the Russian empire in the north and the British in the south.
In 1903 a British army expedition directed by the colonel Younghusband reached Lhasa. The British lost 4 soldiers but slaughtered more the 700 Tibetans that tryed to stop them, mainly by magic. The British installed "a commercial representation" in Lhasa. The Chinese evacuated Dalai Lama to the Qinghai plateau where he hade limited rights of move, probably for preventing him from having contacts with the British occupants.
The Finnish national hero, Marshal Mannerheim, visited him there in 1907 during his famous horseback trip through central Asia. He was then a colonel in the Tsar Russian army and his trip was in reality a spy trip. Therefore the 13th Dalai Lama was interesting.
The power of Dalai Lama was weakened. In 1950 the PLA marched in to Tibet without war. The 14th Dalai Lama seems at the beginning to have accepted this just as a security for his power as the theocratic dictator he was. He enlarged and restructured the Norbulingka Summer Palace in a luxury way in 1954.
The Chinese decided anyhow to finish with the cruel theocratic dictatorship under which the opponents fell down from Potala. The borders where during this dictatorship closed for all foreigners and the only schools where the religious ones. It is well known that it is easier to rule a population with a low education and is ignoring the outside world. In Tibet, about 5% of the population owned everything and the rest literally nothing. About 40% of the Tibetans were monks and nuns living as parasites on the rest of the population that had to feed them. Tibet was not a paradise!
Now China decided that the Tibetans should have the same rights and place in the society as the rest of the country's population. The monasteries should be emptied from their excessively large monk and nun populations.
Tibet could earlier be reached only by some horse trails and was for the rest insulated. The Chinese built rapidly a trafficable road. The insulation was broken.
In 1959, the young Dalai Lama caused a peoples upraising, using the religion as power since he was loosing his own powerful position. The upraising was however stopped, may be in not a too clever and smooth manner. Dalai Lama then left Tibet and his fellow citizens and escaped to India wherefrom he has continued to fight for his come back and reinstall the theocratic dictatorship that China will never allow again.
Then followed the ten years of Cultural Revolution that was an unhappy time for all China that closed itself to the rest of the world.
Now Lhasa has a modern airport and a railway. China has invested a lot in Tibet. The standard of living has been raised a lot in Tibet and last Xmas I have seen Tibetans spending sun-holidays on Hainan Island! Very lucky looking old women in traditional dresses walking on the beach with their husbands and the youngsters dressed like other young people enjoying the beach life.
The possibilities for Dalai Lama to take back his power has diminished and he does not anymore have the population with him. China and India are developing their cooperation and with the closer friendship, India will for sure also not more admit Dalai Lama to disturb this development. His possibilities to act against China will be diminished.
Therefore he undertook recently an around the world diplomatic travel since he has seen the possibility of harming the now good international image of China and provoking boycotts of the Olympic games in Beijing.
The Lhasa riots where very well prepared. Curriers where crossing the borders illegally for to see Dalai Lama and get his orders. A group of foreign mountain climbers filmed recently across the border an unlucky incident when one of these curriers got shot and another that crossed the border openly declared that he wanted to go to see the Dalai Lama. I have seen that in television just before I left for China in November.
China is no longer a closed country. There is no need for illegal border crossings if you are not doing something illegally! You just ask for a passport and take the necessary visas and cross the border at a legal border crossing or better, just take a regular flight from Lhasa to Kathmandu!”
…
Newbie
Posts: 12
April 23rd, 2008, 09:36 PM
lol
I don't agree with baeirr that Tibet is ALWALYS a part of China, but I don't agree with Zzarchov neither that it is a colony. It is beyond the jurisdiction of contemporary international law.
And Zzarchov, don't worry about the Great China, I think it will not happen. The worst thing that could possibly happen might be what is now the Great America, maybe Canada included, but there's still many things that this supercountry couldn't do.
lol
I don't agree with baeirr that Tibet is ALWALYS a part of China, but I don't agree with Zzarchov neither that it is a colony. It is beyond the jurisdiction of contemporary international law.
And Zzarchov, don't worry about the Great China, I think it will not happen. The worst thing that could possibly happen might be what is now the Great America, maybe Canada included, but there's still many things that this supercountry couldn't do.
Council Member
Posts: 1,679
April 23rd, 2008, 09:46 PM
The Dalai Lama doesn't seek independance for Tibet. He wants to preserve Tibet's culture and language through limited autonomy.
The Dalai Lama doesn't seek independance for Tibet. He wants to preserve Tibet's culture and language through limited autonomy.
Quote:
WASHINGTON: The Dalai Lama has denied the Chinese claim that he supports separation of Tibet, saying he only wanted autonomy to preserve its unique culture and traditions which under Beijing's rule remains only "on paper".
"The whole world knows we are not seeking separation," the Dalai Lama said, stressing that what is being sought is only genuine and complete autonomy for Tibet as provided for in the Chinese constitution but has remained "on paper" only.
"We really need an arrangement of full protection of Tibetan language and culture," the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader told a gathering at Colgate University in Hamilton, New York.
He also said that everything in his homeland is now being controlled by the Han Chinese, the majority nationality in the Communist nation....
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/F...ow/2974709.cms
"The whole world knows we are not seeking separation," the Dalai Lama said, stressing that what is being sought is only genuine and complete autonomy for Tibet as provided for in the Chinese constitution but has remained "on paper" only.
"We really need an arrangement of full protection of Tibetan language and culture," the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader told a gathering at Colgate University in Hamilton, New York.
He also said that everything in his homeland is now being controlled by the Han Chinese, the majority nationality in the Communist nation....
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/F...ow/2974709.cms
Newbie
Posts: 4
Location: Beijing
Location: Beijing
April 23rd, 2008, 11:29 PM
Take an example, we Chinese learn English and other foreign languages for better communication with people all over the world. Now Tibetan people want to learn Chinese mandarin, English, etc. for better communication, we cannot prevent their desire to know the outside world.
So what does Dalai Lama really mean by “full protection”? When you trust Dalai Lama and find you cannot come to Tibet or talk to Tibetans freely in the future because it is totally closed to the world, just as it was in nineteenth century, you will understand everything today.
Quoting earth_as_one
Do you know in China, there is one place called “Xizang(Tibet) Autonomous Region”? Autonomy has already being implemented in Tibet. If you come to Tibet and talk to any Tibetans by the roadside, he will tell you their culture and language have been preserved and protected. Han Chinese never controlled them or told them to give up their culture and language. They have freedom to choose their life.
The Dalai Lama doesn't seek independance for Tibet. He wants to preserve Tibet's culture and language through limited autonomy.
Take an example, we Chinese learn English and other foreign languages for better communication with people all over the world. Now Tibetan people want to learn Chinese mandarin, English, etc. for better communication, we cannot prevent their desire to know the outside world.
So what does Dalai Lama really mean by “full protection”? When you trust Dalai Lama and find you cannot come to Tibet or talk to Tibetans freely in the future because it is totally closed to the world, just as it was in nineteenth century, you will understand everything today.
House Member
Posts: 3,383
April 24th, 2008, 08:54 AM
Ok, you want a more detailed version of Tibetan History, it looks worse and worse for Chinese control there. The best evidence of Chinese control of Tibet is that Britain and China agreed China had Suzerainity over it.
Aka, A colonial agreement. No different than Britain's suzeranity over the Raj India.
Its a Colony. Sure the royal lines had mixes, Chinese and Tibetan Queens galore. Europe had the same thing, that Doesn't mean Germany and Britain are the same country because their royal lines are intertwined like a pretzel.
China has had a pretty expansionist policy and has always been working on the next chunk of land to take.
Ok, you want a more detailed version of Tibetan History, it looks worse and worse for Chinese control there. The best evidence of Chinese control of Tibet is that Britain and China agreed China had Suzerainity over it.
Aka, A colonial agreement. No different than Britain's suzeranity over the Raj India.
Its a Colony. Sure the royal lines had mixes, Chinese and Tibetan Queens galore. Europe had the same thing, that Doesn't mean Germany and Britain are the same country because their royal lines are intertwined like a pretzel.
China has had a pretty expansionist policy and has always been working on the next chunk of land to take.
Newbie
Posts: 4
Location: Beijing
Location: Beijing
April 24th, 2008, 09:43 PM
Excuse me, May I know your age?
Excuse me, May I know your age?
Quoting Zzarchov
Ok, you want a more detailed version of Tibetan History, it looks worse and worse for Chinese control there. The best evidence of Chinese control of Tibet is that Britain and China agreed China had Suzerainity over it.
Aka, A colonial agreement. No different than Britain's suzeranity over the Raj India.
Its a Colony. Sure the royal lines had mixes, Chinese and Tibetan Queens galore. Europe had the same thing, that Doesn't mean Germany and Britain are the same country because their royal lines are intertwined like a pretzel.
China has had a pretty expansionist policy and has always been working on the next chunk of land to take.
Aka, A colonial agreement. No different than Britain's suzeranity over the Raj India.
Its a Colony. Sure the royal lines had mixes, Chinese and Tibetan Queens galore. Europe had the same thing, that Doesn't mean Germany and Britain are the same country because their royal lines are intertwined like a pretzel.
China has had a pretty expansionist policy and has always been working on the next chunk of land to take.
Council Member
Posts: 2,301
April 25th, 2008, 08:28 AM
Chinese government officials will meet with representatives of the Dalai Lama in the wake of weeks of tension with Tibet, according to reports from Xinhua, the Chinese state-run media
U.S. President George Bush and European Union leaders have been among those calling on China to begin a dialogue with the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader.
In mid-March, anti-government riots shook Lhasa, the Tibetan capital, kicking off a series of protests that have marred much of the Beijing Olympic torch's journey around the world.
"If in fact the government representative would meet a representative from the Dalai Lama's side this would be a major development following the months-long Tibetan unrest we've seen in this country," Chao told CTV's Canada AM.
"And it would signal to some degree that the Chinese government may be listening to the urging of the international community."
"If in fact the government representative would meet a representative from the Dalai Lama's side this would be a major development following the months-long Tibetan unrest we've seen in this country," Chao told CTV's Canada AM.
"And it would signal to some degree that the Chinese government may be listening to the urging of the international community."
Full article here: http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/Top...e_Dalai_080425
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sofar it's just heresy with political footwork. It remains to be seen if China will actually show a real will to listen to Tibet and consider Tibetans' wish for independence.
Quoting earth_as_one
Hi, Earth-as-one, look here- it is getting very close to happening:
China should invite the Dalai Lama to the Olympics. That would end the protests.
Chinese government officials will meet with representatives of the Dalai Lama in the wake of weeks of tension with Tibet, according to reports from Xinhua, the Chinese state-run media
U.S. President George Bush and European Union leaders have been among those calling on China to begin a dialogue with the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader.
In mid-March, anti-government riots shook Lhasa, the Tibetan capital, kicking off a series of protests that have marred much of the Beijing Olympic torch's journey around the world.
"If in fact the government representative would meet a representative from the Dalai Lama's side this would be a major development following the months-long Tibetan unrest we've seen in this country," Chao told CTV's Canada AM.
"And it would signal to some degree that the Chinese government may be listening to the urging of the international community."
"If in fact the government representative would meet a representative from the Dalai Lama's side this would be a major development following the months-long Tibetan unrest we've seen in this country," Chao told CTV's Canada AM.
"And it would signal to some degree that the Chinese government may be listening to the urging of the international community."
Full article here: http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/Top...e_Dalai_080425
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sofar it's just heresy with political footwork. It remains to be seen if China will actually show a real will to listen to Tibet and consider Tibetans' wish for independence.
Council Member
Posts: 2,301
April 25th, 2008, 08:57 AM
The Los Angeles Times has an interesting article on the subject.
China's view of Tibet
Western leaders' grandstanding ignores both history and the situation on the ground.
News reports of protests targeting the Beijing Olympics torch relay -- first in France, then the U.S. and now Australia -- are surely happily consumed by Westerners who assume supporting a free Tibet is a just cause. What could be more moral than helping a weak people gain independence from an oppressive Chinese government?
The West paints the tale of Tibet in black and white: The politicians and activists in Europe and America are only trying to protect the human rights of the innocent Tibetans, who were invaded not so long ago by the communist Chinese. So when, for instance, European leaders -- so far, British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Czech Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek -- decide to skip the Olympics' opening ceremonies, they appear to be simply responding to a deep moral urge. Solidarity with the oppressed has been a hallmark of the West, although no Western country actually challenges China's sovereignty over Tibet.
Try stepping into the Chinese minds to understand how different the same events look. Chinese history records dominion over Tibet as far back as the 13th century. China's control has ebbed and flowed -- but this is equally true in many other parts of China. Central control by the capital has never been consistent, shifting with the strength of the central government. But this much is certain: China has been in control of most of its territories longer than some Western nations have existed.
More important, the Chinese recall that the latest efforts to separate Tibet from China came as recently as the 1940s and 1950s, when British and U.S. agents were seen to be encouraging Tibetan independence while the new People's Republic was still weak. The Chinese also have powerful memories of Britain's central role in the notorious opium trade of the 18th and 19th centuries, when European trading companies sold the drug to smugglers, then used the ill-gotten gold to buy silk, tea and porcelain.
The related Opium Wars, during which Hong Kong was seized by Britain, are a distant memory in Western minds but remain in the forefront of the Chinese psyche. When the West is seen to be trying to detach Chinese territory again, it rubs salt into this still-fresh wound. Virtually no Chinese believe that Western governments have a strictly moral interest in Tibet. They are convinced that their efforts are only the latest efforts to dismember or derail China.
.........
The lions of human rights, particularly in European capitals, behave like poodles in Beijing. Virtually all of them spend their time trying to sell products to China. Then, in passing, they will whisper that they have to mention human rights issues because when they return home they have to say that these issues were raised. That sends an unmistakable message: This is a Western ritual; please do not pay too much attention to it. Given this record, it is not surprising that Chinese leaders have little respect for European leaders when they make grand gestures on human rights in front of their domestic audiences.
.........
Kishore Mahbubani, dean of the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy at the National University of Singapore, wrote "The New Asian Hemisphere: The Irresistible Shift of Global Power to the East."
Full article here: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...,2235462.story
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I think we should listen more to Hegel and baeirr, who actually live in China and can tell us their side, how they see this conflict.
It is true, the West is mostly harping on the human rights violations, yet, how is the West's record on that?
And then just the mention of China being a Communist state is enough to make us shudder!
"The Irresistible Shift of Global Power to the East." I can see it coming! I only hope the new power will be gentler than the present western one.
The Los Angeles Times has an interesting article on the subject.
China's view of Tibet
Western leaders' grandstanding ignores both history and the situation on the ground.
News reports of protests targeting the Beijing Olympics torch relay -- first in France, then the U.S. and now Australia -- are surely happily consumed by Westerners who assume supporting a free Tibet is a just cause. What could be more moral than helping a weak people gain independence from an oppressive Chinese government?
The West paints the tale of Tibet in black and white: The politicians and activists in Europe and America are only trying to protect the human rights of the innocent Tibetans, who were invaded not so long ago by the communist Chinese. So when, for instance, European leaders -- so far, British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Czech Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek -- decide to skip the Olympics' opening ceremonies, they appear to be simply responding to a deep moral urge. Solidarity with the oppressed has been a hallmark of the West, although no Western country actually challenges China's sovereignty over Tibet.
Try stepping into the Chinese minds to understand how different the same events look. Chinese history records dominion over Tibet as far back as the 13th century. China's control has ebbed and flowed -- but this is equally true in many other parts of China. Central control by the capital has never been consistent, shifting with the strength of the central government. But this much is certain: China has been in control of most of its territories longer than some Western nations have existed.
More important, the Chinese recall that the latest efforts to separate Tibet from China came as recently as the 1940s and 1950s, when British and U.S. agents were seen to be encouraging Tibetan independence while the new People's Republic was still weak. The Chinese also have powerful memories of Britain's central role in the notorious opium trade of the 18th and 19th centuries, when European trading companies sold the drug to smugglers, then used the ill-gotten gold to buy silk, tea and porcelain.
The related Opium Wars, during which Hong Kong was seized by Britain, are a distant memory in Western minds but remain in the forefront of the Chinese psyche. When the West is seen to be trying to detach Chinese territory again, it rubs salt into this still-fresh wound. Virtually no Chinese believe that Western governments have a strictly moral interest in Tibet. They are convinced that their efforts are only the latest efforts to dismember or derail China.
.........
The lions of human rights, particularly in European capitals, behave like poodles in Beijing. Virtually all of them spend their time trying to sell products to China. Then, in passing, they will whisper that they have to mention human rights issues because when they return home they have to say that these issues were raised. That sends an unmistakable message: This is a Western ritual; please do not pay too much attention to it. Given this record, it is not surprising that Chinese leaders have little respect for European leaders when they make grand gestures on human rights in front of their domestic audiences.
.........
Kishore Mahbubani, dean of the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy at the National University of Singapore, wrote "The New Asian Hemisphere: The Irresistible Shift of Global Power to the East."
Full article here: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...,2235462.story
----------------------------------
I think we should listen more to Hegel and baeirr, who actually live in China and can tell us their side, how they see this conflict.
It is true, the West is mostly harping on the human rights violations, yet, how is the West's record on that?
And then just the mention of China being a Communist state is enough to make us shudder!
"The Irresistible Shift of Global Power to the East." I can see it coming! I only hope the new power will be gentler than the present western one.
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 10,273
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
April 25th, 2008, 09:39 AM
Hello, Dalai
by Gary Corseri / April 23rd, 2008
I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contained …
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins;
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God;
Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning things;
Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago.
–Walt Whitman
(to be sung to the tune of “Hello, Dolly”)
I said hello, Dalai,
This is G.C., Dalai,
It’s so nice to have you back where you belong.
In your sarong, Dalai,
Lookin’ swell, Dalai–
You’re still glowin’, you’re still crowin’
That old feudal song.
I hear the monks prayin’
And the horns playin’
One of your anti-commie songs from way back when.
So … pack the yak, fellas,
Forget about Iraq, fellas,
Dalai’ll never go away again.
I said, hello, Dalai,
Holy-gee, Dalai,
Gere’s so nice to have you back where you belong.
Your inner light, Dalai–
Outa sight, Dalai!–
Just be happy, don’t be sappy–
We’ll all sing along.
I hear Iran prayin’
And Petraeus playin’
One of those Oprah-tappin’ tunes from way back when.
So … golly-Jeez, Dems,
Kiss the old man’s knees, Dems,
Bush’ll never go away,
Dalai’ll nev
Hello, Dalai
by Gary Corseri / April 23rd, 2008
I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contained …
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins;
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God;
Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning things;
Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago.
–Walt Whitman
(to be sung to the tune of “Hello, Dolly”)
I said hello, Dalai,
This is G.C., Dalai,
It’s so nice to have you back where you belong.
In your sarong, Dalai,
Lookin’ swell, Dalai–
You’re still glowin’, you’re still crowin’
That old feudal song.
I hear the monks prayin’
And the horns playin’
One of your anti-commie songs from way back when.
So … pack the yak, fellas,
Forget about Iraq, fellas,
Dalai’ll never go away again.
I said, hello, Dalai,
Holy-gee, Dalai,
Gere’s so nice to have you back where you belong.
Your inner light, Dalai–
Outa sight, Dalai!–
Just be happy, don’t be sappy–
We’ll all sing along.
I hear Iran prayin’
And Petraeus playin’
One of those Oprah-tappin’ tunes from way back when.
So … golly-Jeez, Dems,
Kiss the old man’s knees, Dems,
Bush’ll never go away,
Dalai’ll nev
House Member
Posts: 3,383
April 25th, 2008, 10:42 AM
The problem with that View Dancing Loon, is it is a very "China centric" view of tibet.
It pays close attention to the times in History when China has conquered Tibet, but Ignores the times in which China was conquered by others.
It views any government that has ruled China, AS China. So when Mongolia conquered China, that wasn't a Mongonlian government that ruled China and Tibet, in there eyes that was a Chinese government that ruled Mongolia and Tibet...
But Colonialism is a very tough pill to Swallow, England still wants to hold onto Ireland, Wales and Scotland for the same reasons, with the same arguements,
France wants to hold onto its Basque region, its mediteranean Islands, Italy wants to hold Sicily and its other mediteranean holdings.
So China is not alone in its ties to colonialism, its just the most abusive about it (lately).
The problem with that View Dancing Loon, is it is a very "China centric" view of tibet.
It pays close attention to the times in History when China has conquered Tibet, but Ignores the times in which China was conquered by others.
It views any government that has ruled China, AS China. So when Mongolia conquered China, that wasn't a Mongonlian government that ruled China and Tibet, in there eyes that was a Chinese government that ruled Mongolia and Tibet...
But Colonialism is a very tough pill to Swallow, England still wants to hold onto Ireland, Wales and Scotland for the same reasons, with the same arguements,
France wants to hold onto its Basque region, its mediteranean Islands, Italy wants to hold Sicily and its other mediteranean holdings.
So China is not alone in its ties to colonialism, its just the most abusive about it (lately).
Council Member
Posts: 1,679
April 26th, 2008, 01:42 AM
Quoting dancing-loon
I'm probably not the only one who thinks its a good idea. If China pulls this off it would be a major international coup...
Hi, Earth-as-one, look here- it is getting very close to happening:
Chinese government officials will meet with representatives of the Dalai Lama in the wake of weeks of tension with Tibet, according to reports from Xinhua, the Chinese state-run media
U.S. President George Bush and European Union leaders have been among those calling on China to begin a dialogue with the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader.
In mid-March, anti-government riots shook Lhasa, the Tibetan capital, kicking off a series of protests that have marred much of the Beijing Olympic torch's journey around the world.
"If in fact the government representative would meet a representative from the Dalai Lama's side this would be a major development following the months-long Tibetan unrest we've seen in this country," Chao told CTV's Canada AM.
"And it would signal to some degree that the Chinese government may be listening to the urging of the international community."
"If in fact the government representative would meet a representative from the Dalai Lama's side this would be a major development following the months-long Tibetan unrest we've seen in this country," Chao told CTV's Canada AM.
"And it would signal to some degree that the Chinese government may be listening to the urging of the international community."
Full article here: http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/Top...e_Dalai_080425
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Sofar it's just heresy with political footwork. It remains to be seen if China will actually show a real will to listen to Tibet and consider Tibetans' wish for independence.
Chinese government officials will meet with representatives of the Dalai Lama in the wake of weeks of tension with Tibet, according to reports from Xinhua, the Chinese state-run media
U.S. President George Bush and European Union leaders have been among those calling on China to begin a dialogue with the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader.
In mid-March, anti-government riots shook Lhasa, the Tibetan capital, kicking off a series of protests that have marred much of the Beijing Olympic torch's journey around the world.
"If in fact the government representative would meet a representative from the Dalai Lama's side this would be a major development following the months-long Tibetan unrest we've seen in this country," Chao told CTV's Canada AM.
"And it would signal to some degree that the Chinese government may be listening to the urging of the international community."
"If in fact the government representative would meet a representative from the Dalai Lama's side this would be a major development following the months-long Tibetan unrest we've seen in this country," Chao told CTV's Canada AM.
"And it would signal to some degree that the Chinese government may be listening to the urging of the international community."
Full article here: http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/Top...e_Dalai_080425
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sofar it's just heresy with political footwork. It remains to be seen if China will actually show a real will to listen to Tibet and consider Tibetans' wish for independence.
