How Canada puts Britain to shame over treatment of fallen soldiers

[Blackleaf]

An article that shows how Canadians welcome home their soldiers who have been killed in war - whereas the British who, at one time, were incredibly proud of their armed forces, now just seem indifferent when Britain's war dead return.....

Pictures that should shame us all reveal the shabby way Britain treats its fallen heroes

By PETER ALMOND
13th April 2008
Daily Mail


They serve the same Queen, fight the same foe and lay down their lives with equal valour and sacrifice.

But when the fallen heroes of Canada and Britain come home, the welcome is very different.

At airbases in both countries there is only sombre respect.

But today The Mail on Sunday publishes extraordinary pictures that contrast the final road journeys: in Canada, there is a police escort and crowds line the route; in Britain, the hearses are denied outriders and go unremarked.

Shameful: In Canada, (above), roads are cleared and police stand to attention to welcome home fallen heroes. In Britain, (below) hearses carrying our war dead routinely get stuck in traffic without even so much as a police escort

Coffins carrying the Canadian soldiers' bodies are driven 107 miles from the airbase at Trenton, Ontario, to a coroner's office in Toronto; in Britain the trip is 50 miles from RAF Lyneham, Wiltshire, to the morgue at Oxford's John Radcliffe Hospital.

In Canada the road is cleared and a police escort of several squad cars ensures a smooth passage as onlookers pay tribute and police and fire officers salute.

But in Britain most of the journey is spent ignored and stuck in traffic – because Thames Valley Police refuse to provide an escort as they "focus on community safety rather than ceremonial roles".

Last night MP Quentin Davies, who is heading a Ministry of Defence study into strengthening public support for Britain's Armed Forces, labelled the failure to provide an escort for our war dead "despicable".

Tale of two homecomings: The Canadians, above, were killed by a bomb near Kandahar, Afghanistan. British Marine David Marsh, 23, (below left) and Lt John Thornton, 22, were killed while on patrol in Helmand province.

Other Service personnel and police from other Forces concur.

The intensely moving pictures of the Canadian repatriation are being emailed among British soldiers and have been posted on the internet.

Canada currently has 2,500 troops in Afghanistan and has so far lost 82. Britain has lost 91 from a total of 7,800.

The series of pictures includes emotional scenes last year when six Canadian soldiers were flown home.

Captain Jefferson Francis, 36, Captain Matthew Dawe, 27, Master Cpl Colin Bason, 28, Corporal Cole Bartsch, 23, Corporal Jordan Anderson, 25, and Private Lane Watkins, 20, were killed together in their armoured vehicle by a massive roadside bomb near Kandahar.

Along the entire route, on 50 motorway bridges, at roadsides, intersections, on the sides of roads, in fields and even on the central barrier of the busy motorway, local people, firefighters and police stood to attention, Royal Canadian Legionnaires lowered flags and whole families proudly waved "We support our troops" placards.

Sombre: The Canadian heroes, above, arrive at an airbase, while in Britain, below, the dead troops are ceremoniously carried to a hearse at Wootton Bassett

Remember or forget: In Canada, flag waving crowds cram motorway bridges, above, while the cortege carrying the British soldiers from Wootton Bassett, below, is abandoned in traffic

The spectacle was so striking that the highway, part of which was known as the Queen Elizabeth Way, has now been renamed the Highway of Heroes.

Since then, every body travelling along the Highway of Heroes has been greeted by hundreds of ordinary Canadians who often wait for hours in the bitter Ontario winter to show their respect and support.

Lieutenant Colonel Jim Legere, Provost Marshal for the 1st Canadian Air Division Headquarters, wrote of one such journey in a letter to a Toronto newspaper.

He said: "Although words cannot possibly do justice to this heart-wrenching experience, I thought it important for you to be aware of the overwhelming – and I mean overwhelming – support provided by law enforcement, fire services, ambulance services and, indeed, the public at large, for this very solemn occasion.

"I could not believe my eyes as we made the solemn journey from Trenton to the coroner's office in Toronto.

"Every on-ramp had a police vehicle blocking traffic, with members standing by the vehicles saluting.

"Entire police detachments stood along the route, saluting in front of their vehicles.

Patriotic: In Canada, flag waving crowds line the route, while locals honour the British soldiers in Wootton Bassett, below, without a flag in sight

"Fire halls had their trucks out, with their members in full dress uniform out front paying respects to our comrades.

"People stopped their cars along the side of the road, got out and saluted or held their hands over their hearts.

"As we neared downtown, the streets were lined with crowds waving Canadian flags and paying their respects.

"The outpouring of support for our fallen heroes and their families was beyond belief."

Lt Col Legere's letter concluded: "Never before have I been as proud to wear this uniform."

Honour: Former servicemen and women line the streets in Canada to pay their respects, above, and in Britain the hearse passes without notice, below

Highways for Heroes have been designated in other Canadian cities and many people pay their respects when a fallen soldier returns. Police escorts are the norm.

The spectacle contrasts strongly with the progress of a British cortege which The Mail on Sunday was given special permission to follow earlier this month.

Lieutenant John Thornton, 22, and Marine David Marsh, 23, both of 40 Commando Royal Marines, were killed in a vehicle explosion while patrolling in Helmand Province.

Hand on heart: Firefighters stand by the engines to salute the hearse in Canada, but, below, the British hearse is tied down in heavy traffic

Their two black hearses and an empty spare hearse accompanying them were initially escorted by Wiltshire Police.

The cortege first passed through the village of Wootton Bassett where locals, forewarned by the RAF base, gather at the war memorial to pay their respects.

But for much of the rest of the trip to Oxford – where the bodies undergo post-mortems before being returned to their families – the hearses are on their own, led only by an undertaker's car.

They were cut up by impatient motorists at roundabouts, stuck in traffic and generally ignored by the public, their significance lost because of a lack of the gravitas that a police escort would provide.

The problem has arisen because the Wiltshire Constabulary escort – normally three motorcycle outriders and two patrol cars which stop other traffic along the route – has to "peel off" at the Oxfordshire border where the Thames Valley force area begins.

The corteges then have to fend for themselves on Oxford's notorious ring-road.

Inspector Mark Levitt of Wiltshire Police has taken up the matter with Thames Valley.

Respect: Scores of police get out of stopped cars as the Canadian soldiers are driven past. In Britain, below, the streets remain empty

He told The Mail on Sunday: "I phoned one of the road policing managers and asked if they would continue the repatriation escorts to Oxford and he said it was not in their force policy to provide one for this type of thing."

Insp Levitt, who has helped organise the stops at Wootton Bassett war memorial, added: "We have officers who come in on their days off to help with the escort duties, because they want to show their respects to the young soldiers who died for us and are genuinely touched by the tribute and respect shown by the people of Wootton Bassett."

Salute: As night falls in Toronto, firefighters stand to attention ahead of the cortege. In Britain, police peel off at the Thames valley border and go unnoticed

But Thames Valley Police defended their failure to provide an escort.

They say that even before April last year, when RAF Brize Norton in Oxfordshire rather than Lyneham was used for repatriating war dead, the force provided escorts only if there was an "operational need", such as large numbers of vehicles, families or people involved.

Assistant Chief Constable Brian Langston claimed that "most of the time" escorts were not required or requested.

"I've spoken to my counterpart at Wiltshire Police and I understand they provide escorts because of the people involved at the Wootton Bassett events.

"We try to provide what people say are their priorities, and so far that's been to focus on community safety rather than ceremonial roles."

A man holds a hand to his heart on the motorway as the Canadian cortege passes, above. But the British hearse passes without so much as a wave from passers by, below

But Labour MP Mr Davies said: "It is very much to the credit of Wiltshire Police that they are stopping traffic and giving dignity and respect to those who have given their lives to this country.

"I think it is disgusting that the police in Oxfordshire do not do the same."

Thames Valley Police are, however, well versed in escort duties.

The force operates its own Protection Group which provides security for the Royal Family at Windsor Castle, escorts visiting heads of state and guards the many Government officials and other VIPs who have homes in Berkshire, Buckinghamshire and Oxfordshire.

Quentin Davies acknowledged that a Canadian-style Highway for Heroes may not be right for Britain but added: "It is very comforting to the families to know that places like Wootton Bassett have paid direct and specific tribute.

"It is very important to let the public reflect on their sacrifice. Indeed they [the families] might even feel they have been betrayed without it."

Conservative MP Patrick Mercer, a former Army colonel, said: "This is the latest breach of the military covenant.

"Even in death our men are being scorned.

"The compensation our Servicemen receive is pitiful, the shortages of body armour are scandalous, the way the Government is trying to gag coroners over the death of Servicemen disgusting.

"Now we have this. All of these things shout of shabbiness."

The Ministry of Defence refused to comment, claiming it was "a local issue".

dailymail.co.uk

 

[Praxius]

Well it's easily explainable... the UK is just following exactly what the US does for their troops.... attempt to make the deaths less public and restrict as much information as they can permit so that there is less negativity towards the wars being fought. The more people seen or made aware of that died in these wars, they fear the more people will begin to oppose those wars that their soldiers fight in.

the Government of Canada was pretty close to deciding to make the funerals, fly-ins and transports of our soldiers a private matter for the families alone, restricting media from these events around the time we went to Afghanistan, but soon tossed that idea as many family members of soldiers fighting either directly opposed the idea, or wanted the public to know about their fallen son or daughter and to make aware of the sacrafices made for their country.

To my experience, Canada and Canadians have always been a proud nation when it came to their military and through history the world has know (Be that from us helping them side by side, or being against us in front of our guns) that we as they said in WWI "les durs à cuire" (hard to cook/kill)

Both the US and the UK, I feel, should be giving more attention to their fallen soldiers then they currently are. But then again, that would probably open up more awareness to what they Are Not doing for their troops, besides the above mentioned.

 

[Avro]

Considering Bush's lack of popularity I really don't see how hiding the troops coffins helps him so that point is moot.

The way we parade dead bodies around is a tool of guilt to those who may not agree with Canada's participation in this never ending conflict. It actually helps the government in some sort of sick delusional patriotic smoke screen. Something that I never thought would happen here in Canada......but has and everyone standing on those bridges has fallen for it.

 

[tracy]

I think it should be left up to their families. If they want the ceremonial police escort, fine. If they don't, that's their business.

 

[#juan]

I think it should be left up to their families. If they want the ceremonial police escort, fine. If they don't, that's their business.

I think it is more than that. I think we should be publically affirming and appreciating the price these soldiers have paid. It somehow seems inappropriate to quietly bring the bodies in at night and the public should be aware what the war is costing us.

 

[Praxius]

Considering Bush's lack of popularity I really don't see how hiding the troops coffins helps him so that point is moot.

No, the decision of not making it public was made prior to everybody hating Bush and was right around the same time he started sending people off to war. I actually remember the debate back then on US-Media about whether or not it should be made more public then it is, or not. And for the most part, their defence was in regards to war-opposers using the long list of fallen soldiers, the emotions being played out on TV and every media shot used since the invasion would be turned into ammo for their opposition to the war. It was yet another one of those methods of controlling what people see and think as much as possible.

The way we parade dead bodies around is a tool of guilt to those who may not agree with Canada's participation in this never ending conflict. It actually helps the government in some sort of sick delusional patriotic smoke screen. Something that I never thought would happen here in Canada......but has and everyone standing on those bridges has fallen for it.

Now there's a stretch-assumption. Those people are there on their own accord and reconizing and paying our respects to our fallen soldiers has been a Canadian trait for generations. This is nothing new, we have always been proud of our soldiers and if you paid attention, nobody is using these fallen soldiers for any propaganda.

They are Canadian Soldiers, they fought and died for our country and for what they personally believed in, and there is no propaganda involved in paying our respects when we can for our soldiers. If that was the case, then perhaps we should abolish Rememberance Day..... Because that is all that is being done here. Remembering and paying respect for our fallen and doing so as they come back home is probably the greatest way of paying your respects for them, because you are standing there and saluting those soldiers directly for what they did, not some stone monument on one paticular day of the year.

Whether or not you agree or disagree with the current war we are involved in is irrelevent to supporting our troops and paying respects to them if and when they fall in battle.

You can still support our troops and still oppose the war without both conflicting. If you oppose the war, then support our troops by fighting the government to haul their asses out of there so no more die.

For me personally, I do not Fully support this war, but I still support our troops and I still support their personal reasons why they want to be over there and continue to go back over tour after tour (For the Afghan people) I do not support our original reasons why we went over there and for that I oppose the war, but humanity kicks in, and like their reasons why they keep going back, I support their reasons for going over continually and wanting to try at least and help the people have something to call home without fear.

Unfortunatly the entire situation is overly-complicated due to various other nation's intentions and reasons for being there, but just because it is complicated and difficult, doesn't mean that is justification for cutting and running without first looking at the consequences that may follow that decision.

But back on topic, Those soldiers are still humans like you and I, who entered a job which they were fully aware that their lives and health were at constant risk. For that alone, they deserve respect.

Hell, I have respect for US and UK soldiers who face these same difficulties (But I don't have respect for troops who are muderous jerk-wads.... but that's a different topic.)

 

[Praxius]

I think it is more than that. I think we should be publically affirming and appreciating the price these soldiers have paid. It somehow seems inappropriate to quietly bring the bodies in at night and the public should be aware what the war is costing us.

Agreed. Some talked about using their "glorified" escort home as being propaganda for continuing the war, but if anything, it will gradually fuel people to oppose the war, rather then support it the more of our fallen soldiers are shown and brought home. But it hasn't yet, therefore one would have to conclude that these people are out there supporting them with genuine respect and admiration for their sacrafices seperate from whatever war that maybe currently active.

And another thing, is that I believe expressing and showing via the media our troops being sent home, has put a human face to our fallen troops. This alone I believe has helped make our government and people push our NATO allies to send more troops and help for us because of the unbalanced work load our troops are facing. By numbered comparisons to the other troops in Afghanistan, our troops have made some of the greatest sacrafices there, our allies are aware of this as well and compliment our efforts that are showing results. Those fallen troops are still making a difference for the troops still there fighting. None of us want any of our troops to fall, and when they do, we are continually learning new ways to prevent it in the future. We get new equipment, new tactics, new assistance from other nations, their sacrafices are not only helping their fellow soldiers today, but also for the future soldiers who will fight in later battles to come (Not just in this war but any other wars to come)

 

[mabudon]

A good point by Avro there, too, tho. Something I've felt but not been able to place, the weird way the dead are supposed to make the whole country shut up and be "thankful" which in my mind is bordering on the obscene.

I am more sorry for the "war" dead than I am thankful to them unfortunately. The way things are set up now, you almost can't voice that sentiment without causing some kind of ruckus. One is simply supposed to be thankful , and in my case I can NOT BE thankful for any of the lives lost in this ridiculous exercise, I just feel sad and kinda angry at the powers-that-be for setting up the dead to do one more piece of "duty" to their country in death, the service of making it somehow non-PC to criticize the stupidity and outright futility of whatever the hell it is we're supposedly doing in that friggin desert wasteland

 

[Avro]

The day to remember our fallen is remembrance day, this **** on the "highway of hero's" is political and nothing more.

Canadians unfortunately are becoming more and more Americanized. Perhaps it should be suggested if I don't take the time to stand on the bridge to see a wasted life go by I am somehow anti-Canadian or anti-soldier. The war in Iraq was sold on this sort of crap and it is now being fed to Canadians and they are eating it up.

Pathetic.

 

[Praxius]

A good point by Avro there, too, tho. Something I've felt but not been able to place, the weird way the dead are supposed to make the whole country shut up and be "thankful" which in my mind is bordering on the obscene.

I am more sorry for the "war" dead than I am thankful to them unfortunately. The way things are set up now, you almost can't voice that sentiment without causing some kind of ruckus. One is simply supposed to be thankful , and in my case I can NOT BE thankful for any of the lives lost in this ridiculous exercise, I just feel sad and kinda angry at the powers-that-be for setting up the dead to do one more piece of "duty" to their country in death, the service of making it somehow non-PC to criticize the stupidity and outright futility of whatever the hell it is we're supposedly doing in that friggin desert wasteland

Meh, to me, you have every right to oppose the war if you wish. But try not to view things as black and white. Ask yourself these few questions:

• Did each of those soldiers who died truly believe in the original reasons why we went over in the first place?

• If they didn't and went over based on their own personal reasons to be there (Whatever that may be) would you still feel sorry for them even though they went based mostly on their own decisions and morals?

My cousin's husband went over, he came back and now my cousin herself is over there as I type this and chose to go over. Whatever her reasons are for wanting to go over, those are her's alone. I am pretty sure due to the position she currently has, she could have chosen anywhere to be stationed in the world, but she's gone to Afghanistan.

Instead of basing your opinion on what the government says, directly ask some soldiers themselves. Stop them on the street and ask them personally what they feel about the war, did they go over themselves, what they thought when they were over there, what they personally feel about those who have fallen, perhaps soldiers they personally knew. Ask them personally why they are in the Canadian Forces and ask them if they feel they are doing the right thing being over there.

Don't go by what I tell you, or what the media tells you, hell, don't go by what the government tells you. Ask for yourself directly to our troops and get the real answers for yourself. If you hear something you do not like, or you hear opposition for why we are over there..... then support our troops by forcing our government to bring them home. Our government controls where our troops go.... but we are supposed to control our government and that is how we support our troops and make sure we do not put them in unessicary harms way.

If the majority of Canada and our troops think we are over there for the right reasons, then I too support that decision (based on my personal views and principles) but if the majority of the country disproves our being over there and demand our withdrawl.... then who am I to force them to remain for something the majoirty of the country does not approve and thus in turn risking more of their lives?

As you can tell I am in a gray zone over this war because there are many things I oppose about it which you seem to oppose equally.... but I also see many reasons to stay now and to at least attempt to help the people living there. It is not like Iraq where the entire country doesn't want us there. If the majority of Afghanistan wanted us out of their country and started to attack us like what's going on in Iraq..... I'd say sure... haul our asses out of there and let them deal with their problems. But that isn't the case, people want and need us there, our troops see this and believe it to be true, and they are willing to risk their lives for these people, so who am I to argue?

They are risking their lives for a people less fortunate then themselves and us, and those people want them there and appreciate it..... who am I to argue that?

 

[Avro]

They are risking their lives for a people less fortunate then themselves and us, and those people want them there and appreciate it..... who am I to argue that?

If the people wanted freedom form tyranny so bad why not do it on there own? When they want it bad enough they will do it themselves without a foreign country telling them how to do it. I suppose with that argument you support the effort in Iraq considering that it is about freeing the the people from tyranny, according to Bush that is. Or does your opinion change on that, they are the same you know.

 

[Praxius]

The day to remember our fallen is remembrance day, this **** on the "highway of hero's" is political and nothing more.

Military officials opposed repatriation media ban
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe.../media_ban_opposed_060702/20060702?hub=Canada

"Senior military officials opposed the Conservative government's controversial ban on media coverage of homecoming ceremonies for soldiers killed in Afghanistan, documents obtained under the Access to Information Act suggest....."

How can it be political when the politicians were planning on banning this? I think you need to get the information straight. This was a practice which has always occured. It's only occuring more because we're losing more soldiers then we've had in recent history.

Canadians unfortunately are becoming more and more Americanized.

If that were true then we'd be trying to avoid letting the public know our casualties such as they are.

Perhaps it should be suggested if I don't take the time to stand on the bridge to see a wasted life go by I am somehow anti-Canadian or anti-soldier.

I don't personally think that, that is your decision, it's not anti anything, that's you're beleif and that is how you express it. I don't see anybody on here claiming that you are anti-Canadian.

The war in Iraq was sold on this sort of crap and it is now being fed to Canadians and they are eating it up.

Pathetic.

Once again wrong... there were levels of justification for this war, there was nothing at all justifying Iraq. The people didn't ask us for help (I guess neither did the Afghans), the people are not yelling at us and attacking us to leave their nation, and Afghans are continually expressing that they want us there and that their lives are (slowly) improving from what it was under the Taliban's rule.

But to each their own.

 

[Avro]

Planning yes, but they were wrong on there judgment on how this keeps the masses happy.

Views on this site about the war are mostly liberal so i don't expect it here but I have been accuse of siding with the Taliban on other web sites.

Nope, we are moving towards a patriotic response as apposed to a right one. Just like in the U.S. when the war in Iraq was sold successfully, even the liberal media fell for it.

the level of justification for war was 9/11 but what if we had done nothing but close the country off instead of invading in an attempt to nation build which has never been successful.....just ask the British.

We never learn from mistakes.

 

[thomaska]

Well it's easily explainable... the UK is just following exactly what the US does for their troops.... attempt to make the deaths less public and restrict as much information as they can permit so that there is less negativity towards the wars being fought. The more people seen or made aware of that died in these wars, they fear the more people will begin to oppose those wars that their soldiers fight in.


Both the US and the UK, I feel, should be giving more attention to their fallen soldiers then they currently are. But then again, that would probably open up more awareness to what they Are Not doing for their troops, besides the above mentioned.

What a crock of pure s hit.

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/news/finalSalute/article/0,1299,DRMN_3_4224657,00.shtml

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4405009,00.html

http://www.patriotguard.org/photos/listpics.asp

And that is just three sites...

Google is your friend, try to make use of it before spewing more tripe onto the forums.

 

[Praxius]

If the people wanted freedom form tyranny so bad why not do it on there own?

Being continually oppressed, poor and under the control of an organization such at the Taliban, plus decades of continual war and invasions from various other countries over the years, Afghans are just simply beaten and tired of war(s) ~ They did not have the forces or the ability to do anything about it.

Granted I agree in general that if a nation wants change, they should be doing it on their own. As mentioned before, I opposed the original reasons for going over there, but we are there now, the reasons for the most part have evolved/changed since the half-truths given to us at the time we joined.... and although I believe we were put in there by some unfounded explinations, Our forces have never quit, never fallen back when things go tough, and now that people actually need us there, for humanity reasons I believe we should be there.

The one and only reason why I still support us being there, is because the Afghans want us there. If they didn't, then I would be right there along with you and wanting us pulled out ASAP. Until Afghans start turning on us, until I start hearing more soldiers oppose the war and why they are there, I will have faith in our troops and support them being there.

When they want it bad enough they will do it themselves without a foreign country telling them how to do it.

In a perfect world, yes, I agree. Unfortunatly, like I usually see it.... Canada is in Afghanistan to clean up the US's mess, like we usually do..... and we're doing a good job of it I might add. Each year, Afghans are polled and asked a number of questions. In the last report I read, although our forces are doing most of the fighting, the average Afghan sees Canadians as being there for reconstruction and helping them, while they still see the US as a military force directly fighting the Taliban.... it is our actions and our attitudes we present the people there that makes the difference. The majority of Civilian casualties at allied hands have mostly been by US/US Led forces, and our troops have been taking careful steps to take our time and try and fight the Taliban when the risks to the civilians are the lowest. Our regard for innocent life is what differs us from the US, while the US continually excuses their civilian casualties as "Well they shouldn't have been there helping the Taliban in the first place" ~ Which is a long topic in itself.

I suppose with that argument you support the effort in Iraq considering that it is about freeing the the people from tyranny, according to Bush that is. Or does your opinion change on that, they are the same you know.

#1 - No, I have never supported the Iraq invasion, and I still do not support it. In fact the only solution in that situation is for a complete withdrawl. As explained in numerous threads in here, the reason why there is instability and insurgent forces continually destabalizing that nation and killing US troops, is because of the US's mentality and regard for Iraqis and their nation, they feel other sects are supporting the US, therefore prolonging these forign non-believers from leaving what they considder their "Holy Land" and thus are fighting one another as well. Of course the US media twists this into something else.

#2 - The Iraqi's are the ones the US is fighting.... AKA: the people of the nation do not want them in their country. In Afghanistan, we are fighting the Taliban whom are stationed on the border/mountain area of Pakistan and Afghanistan..... we are not fighting Afghans themselves. As mentioned before, if Afghans begin to act and fight against us as like what is happening in Iraq, then I'd be calling for our pullout.

Why help people who do not want our help? Granted they did not ask for our help.... but if you have been following things over there recently, they do want our help now. If we pull out now, all of what they have accomplished so far will be lost, the Taliban will come back into the country and they will not just re-oppress the nation, but also make examples out of those who supported the new Afghan government and their new way of life.

#3 - The other reason why Afghans have not actually fought for themselves is because they never had a military to fight them with. The main objective in Afghanistan now is to help buildup the Afghan army and their police to the point where they can take over the operations and battles against the Taliban and any other forign invaders that may come in the future. They are almost to this point where if you have been following reports, most battles our Canadian forces have been in as of late, have been led by the Afghan army itself..... proving that they are begining to get strong and to take control of their nation. Once they do, we can leave.

The thing that makes this a greater chance of sucess as opposed to Iraq, is that Afghans are fighting the Taliban, not themselves..... they are fighting as one, not devided by different beliefs and different divisions.

Because there is this better chance of sucess for them, is also why I am not calling for a pullout myself.

 

[Avro]

What a joke, in defense of Prax, try finding the news on any major network instead of something ridiculously obscure.

You're a joke beyond belief.:roll:

 

[Avro]

Being continually oppressed, poor and under the control of an organization such at the Taliban, plus decades of continual war and invasions from various other countries over the years, Afghans are just simply beaten and tired of war(s) ~ They did not have the forces or the ability to do anything about it.

Granted I agree in general that if a nation wants change, they should be doing it on their own. As mentioned before, I opposed the original reasons for going over there, but we are there now, the reasons for the most part have evolved/changed since the half-truths given to us at the time we joined.... and although I believe we were put in there by some unfounded explinations, Our forces have never quit, never fallen back when things go tough, and now that people actually need us there, for humanity reasons I believe we should be there.

The one and only reason why I still support us being there, is because the Afghans want us there. If they didn't, then I would be right there along with you and wanting us pulled out ASAP. Until Afghans start turning on us, until I start hearing more soldiers oppose the war and why they are there, I will have faith in our troops and support them being there.



In a perfect world, yes, I agree. Unfortunatly, like I usually see it.... Canada is in Afghanistan to clean up the US's mess, like we usually do..... and we're doing a good job of it I might add. Each year, Afghans are polled and asked a number of questions. In the last report I read, although our forces are doing most of the fighting, the average Afghan sees Canadians as being there for reconstruction and helping them, while they still see the US as a military force directly fighting the Taliban.... it is our actions and our attitudes we present the people there that makes the difference. The majority of Civilian casualties at allied hands have mostly been by US/US Led forces, and our troops have been taking careful steps to take our time and try and fight the Taliban when the risks to the civilians are the lowest. Our regard for innocent life is what differs us from the US, while the US continually excuses their civilian casualties as "Well they shouldn't have been there helping the Taliban in the first place" ~ Which is a long topic in itself.



#1 - No, I have never supported the Iraq invasion, and I still do not support it. In fact the only solution in that situation is for a complete withdrawl. As explained in numerous threads in here, the reason why there is instability and insurgent forces continually destabalizing that nation and killing US troops, is because of the US's mentality and regard for Iraqis and their nation, they feel other sects are supporting the US, therefore prolonging these forign non-believers from leaving what they considder their "Holy Land" and thus are fighting one another as well. Of course the US media twists this into something else.

#2 - The Iraqi's are the ones the US is fighting.... AKA: the people of the nation do not want them in their country. In Afghanistan, we are fighting the Taliban whom are stationed on the border/mountain area of Pakistan and Afghanistan..... we are not fighting Afghans themselves. As mentioned before, if Afghans begin to act and fight against us as like what is happening in Iraq, then I'd be calling for our pullout.

Why help people who do not want our help? Granted they did not ask for our help.... but if you have been following things over there recently, they do want our help now. If we pull out now, all of what they have accomplished so far will be lost, the Taliban will come back into the country and they will not just re-oppress the nation, but also make examples out of those who supported the new Afghan government and their new way of life.

#3 - The other reason why Afghans have not actually fought for themselves is because they never had a military to fight them with. The main objective in Afghanistan now is to help buildup the Afghan army and their police to the point where they can take over the operations and battles against the Taliban and any other forign invaders that may come in the future. They are almost to this point where if you have been following reports, most battles our Canadian forces have been in as of late, have been led by the Afghan army itself..... proving that they are begining to get strong and to take control of their nation. Once they do, we can leave.

The thing that makes this a greater chance of sucess as opposed to Iraq, is that Afghans are fighting the Taliban, not themselves..... they are fighting as one, not devided by different beliefs and different divisions.

Because there is this better chance of sucess for them, is also why I am not calling for a pullout myself.

In short, get out now and let them sort it out.

 

[Praxius]

Planning yes, but they were wrong on there judgment on how this keeps the masses happy.

Views on this site about the war are mostly liberal so i don't expect it here but I have been accuse of siding with the Taliban on other web sites.

Well you can tell them that I said they can kiss my ass. Cuz even though you don't seem to agree with my point of view, I'm not about to attack you over it.

the level of justification for war was 9/11 but what if we had done nothing but close the country off instead of invading in an attempt to nation build which has never been successful.....just ask the British.

We never learn from mistakes.

History will repeat until we learn from our past mistakes.... something I try to follow through my personal life. The justification for Afghanistan being invaded was, from my understanding, to go and hunt down Osama..... but apparently we all know now he was hiding in Pakistan (Or so they say) therefore I see the original reasons for invading Afghanistan, was to make an example out of the Taliban there (The biggest concentration of the organization if memory serves correctly) thereby attacking the organization Osama was a part of...... that and for the US to secure the Pipeline (Which the Taliban opposed and wouldn't allow in Afghanistan while they were in power.)

So yes, there were a few bad and flawed reasons to invade.... perhaps lies if one wanted to look at it that way.... which is why Canada didn't jump into the invasion in the first place and only went after the UN sanctioned NATO to go into Afghanistan (AKA: To clean up the US's mess) ~ We are a part of NATO and thus where NATO goes, so do we.

Notice how NATO isn't in Iraq? Because it was an unjust war with no foundation..... and I imagine they didn't want to be a part of that giant mess.

The big factor here is that Iraq and Afghanistan are two totally different wars, with two totally different sets of factors involved, with two totally different possible outcomes. Where Iraq is now is nowhere near where Afghanistan is now. Iraq has no hope, no direction, no desire from their own people to make things better.... let alone take up a democratic form of government. Afghanistan finally wants their nation to be their own.... not the Talibans, not the Soviet's and certainly not ours.... but we are trying to give them that chance to have that power over their nation for once. Afghanistan wasn't ruled by some dictator like Saddam (That's not justification for the Iraq invasion mind you) but was ruled by an organization in which the US actually helped put in place to fight the Soviets, whom also wanted to control their nation.

There are schools, hospitals, jobs and other developments occuring in Afghanistan, and the people themselves are not destroying these things we worked hard on..... the Taliban are. They come in at night, leave notes of theat telling the people to stop supporting their own government or they will burn these places down or they'll kill their husbands or children, etc.... the Afghans are actually reporting these to their government and asking for help, and thus we try and help when needed.

In Iraq, most of the so-called reconstruction the US has been doing has been put mostly in their own US compounds, bases and things that they feel benifit them. Very few Iraqi's have seen any major reconstruction going on that suit their needs.... money is going elsewhere, the US continually air strikes and shoots people on the streets without regard, and reports of planting weapons on civilians to cover accidents or intentional killings are what continually fuel the chaos in Iraq and the continual bombings and fighting there.

On the flip side, Afghans are starting to get pissed about the civilians dieing over there as well..... what situations are causing this frustration? If you follow reports and studies, most are related to..... yup.... US Air Strikes and attacks on what they claim were "Suspected Taliban Strongholds" ~ A similar claim they use in Iraq. The US overall is very indiscriminate with whom they kill or who dies around their attacks, information and details of these incidences are usually classified or "Being Investigated" ~ Yet we never hear anything about them afterwards and it is covered up yet again.

To me, the US is causing most of the instability in both nations and if we just up and leave Afghanistan, then God knows what'll happen. Well, I have a rough idea..... another Iraq.

 

[Praxius]

What a joke, in defense of Prax, try finding the news on any major network instead of something ridiculously obscure.

You're a joke beyond belief.:roll:

Hey, for once I'm actually trying to be civil over this discussion... if you want to start flinging crap back and forth, by all means, just say so. It's not my fault I'm making more sense then you are. A good portion of my information I have gathered since this war began has been from your "News or any Major Network." ~ Plus a few other sources which are not controlled by a select few.

If you want sources and facts from these sources of information, just ask.... I have piles to give you.

 

[Praxius]

In short, get out now and let them sort it out.

In short, you're not reading anything being said, which also expresses you probably haven't bothered to read anything of fact recently which relates to what's going on over there.... therefore you're short minded and ignorant over what's actually going on, you're now getting offended that I'm not jumping on your unsupported band-wagon and that I actually know more about this topic then you do.... so now you're going to try and avoid a ligit debate by throwing out ignorant statements and resorting to personal insults.

Quite mature of you, I must say. Your own comments in this thread speak bounds about your mentality and knowlege of this topic. I don't really need to say much more to you in this regard.