Pakistan: US detainees - no witness trials

[dancing-loon]

Afghans Hold Secret Trials for Men That U.S. Detained

Dozens of Afghan men who were previously held by the United States at Bagram Air Base and Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, are now being tried here in secretive Afghan criminal proceedings based mainly on allegations forwarded by the American military.

The prisoners are being convicted and sentenced to as much as 20 years’ confinement in trials that typically run between half an hour and an hour, said human rights investigators who have observed them. One early trial was reported to have lasted barely 10 minutes, an investigator said.

“These are no-witness paper trials...
. “So any convictions you get are fundamentally flawed.”...
Afghan judicial system remains crippled by problems more than six years after the fall of the Taliban.

Although President Hamid Karzai refused to sign a decree law drafted with American help that would have allowed Afghanistan to hold the former detainees indefinitely as “enemy combatants,” the Afghan authorities have gone ahead anyway.

“These are not prosecutions that are being done at the request or behest of the United States government,” said Ms. Hodgkinson, the deputy assistant secretary of defense for detention policy. “These are prosecutions that are being done by Afghans for crimes committed on their territory by their nationals,” adding, “these trials are much more consistent with the traditional Afghan justice process than they are with ours.”

In an interview, one of the justices of the Afghan Supreme Court argued that while the trials might have some flaws, they represented a fair process.
“All of these trials have been prepared by our friends from the United States,” said the justice, who uses the single name Rashid. “They have seen it themselves. We don’t have any doubts about the trial not being fair.”
Justice Rashid added that he had complete confidence in the accuracy of the information that was being provided to Afghan investigators by the American military.

Full article here:http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/10/wo...=1&oref=slogin
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If the Americans say the sky is green, then the sky IS green! Period!
I get the impression that these detainees are a burden to the US as well as Afghanistan, and therefore "lets process them as quickly as possible, so they are out of the way! Who cares about their rights?!"

America's efforts at bringing freedom and democracy to the Afghan nation has failed miserably! I don't think it ever was their intent at all.

 

[Praxius]

Nope it wasn't. And we already have a good handful of those accused from various countries already proven to have been inocent.... so just going on the US's word that they're guilty (Even though they never even had a fair trial or anything relating to one to prove they are) ~ It's just simply guilty until proven innocent, but there's no chance given to try and prove inocence in these shams.... therefore they're still guilty, they're sentenced to a good chunk of their lives to rot in jail, and thus.... the system works.

*smacks head*

 

[thomaska]

So, let me see if I've got this correct:

The U.S. is wrong for trying to interfere in barbaric, 7th century style justice systems in barbaric, 7th century style societies

AND

The U.S. is also wrong for not trying to intefere in barbaric, 7th century style justice systems, in barbaric 7th century type societies.

SO, I guess the only course of action left to us is, let them all kill each other (and us) as much as they want, and issue strongly worded, condemnations, wring our hands, gnash our teeth and post on blogs about how evil it is.

 

[dancing-loon]

So, let me see if I've got this correct:

The U.S. is wrong for trying to interfere in barbaric, 7th century style justice systems in barbaric, 7th century style societies

AND

The U.S. is also wrong for not trying to interfere in barbaric, 7th century style justice systems, in barbaric 7th century type societies.

SO, I guess the only course of action left to us is, let them all kill each other (and us) as much as they want, and issue strongly worded, condemnations, wring our hands, gnash our teeth and post on blogs about how evil it is.

So, Thomas, tell us then your version of WHY the US went and bombed Afghanistan to smithereens?

Why bother establishing a democracy, if their sense of justice is also from the 7th century? Why, Why?

 

[MikeyDB]

Dancing_Loon

You must understand....Thomaska is simply echoing the views of others here at CC...

When the United States and its allies forego the "rule of law"...well that's perfectly OK!

If anyone else decides to forego the rule of law...well that's terrorism.....

It's the subtle difference of the rabidly patriotic and the voluntarily self-deluded that makes the difference.

Bin Laden wasn't just a criminal....he's a terrorist...and the Afghan conflict is the exercise in "democractic justice" that's called for to bring criminals to justice... It's that selective view of terrorism and "justice" that's at work here....

The United States helped Saddam Hussein and supplied him with chemical weapons...but when the decision was made that Nowwww Saddam Hussein is a criminal he's targetted for assassination and the patently false "evidence" of WMDs and connection to Al Qeada is all the excuse needed by these wonderful folk who claim to be a people subscribing to "the rule of law"....

See if you're America it doesn't matter what international laws and agreements between states might say....When you're an American you can do whatever the hell you like....

It's the prevalant rule of the cave-man that drives as Plato suggested "Who has the might has the right"....

"Justice" and "Law are concepts for America to determine for the world and if that "justice" and that "law" requires the United States to behave exactly the same as those people they've identified as enemies and "terrorists"..then yes it's perfectly OK to weaponize Europe and make use of torture and deceit....

The American way.

 

[EagleSmack]

So, let me see if I've got this correct:

The U.S. is wrong for trying to interfere in barbaric, 7th century style justice systems in barbaric, 7th century style societies

AND

The U.S. is also wrong for not trying to intefere in barbaric, 7th century style justice systems, in barbaric 7th century type societies.

SO, I guess the only course of action left to us is, let them all kill each other (and us) as much as they want, and issue strongly worded, condemnations, wring our hands, gnash our teeth and post on blogs about how evil it is.

Yeah that is how I read it too!

Damned if we do...damned if we don't.

 

[Praxius]

So, let me see if I've got this correct:

The U.S. is wrong for trying to interfere in barbaric, 7th century style justice systems in barbaric, 7th century style societies

AND

The U.S. is also wrong for not trying to intefere in barbaric, 7th century style justice systems, in barbaric 7th century type societies.

You're right on the first half, incorrect on your provided information in this thread on the second half.

Sending them all to Afghanistan where you guys as well as all of us know, their justice system isn't anywhere perfect yet, and sending them based on US-led evidence and information stating that they are indeed terrorists/criminals.... is still interference. The only trick now is that you guys know your made-up justice system in Cuba is not only wrong, but is also failing, so what do you do? You send them off to another country that's in disarray.... also because of you guys.... and expect that they will throw them through the fire quickly and effectively to what you want, because you know they don't have the time or money to bother with these people and to make sure they get fair trials.

And I also bet you dimes to doughnuts that the reason why they were all sent to Afghanistan has partially to do with Canada's refusal to take a good chunk of your suspected terrorists from Cuba a few months ago. Nobody else would get involved in the dirty work, so you guys find someone who will and when the sh*t hits the fan and a % of these people who are found guilty are later found out to be innocent (Which already has occured on a number of these people) you guys can easily say you had nothing to do with it.... even though it is all based on evidence and fabricated documents and interviews which by that time will not even be able to be cross examined like they seem to be occuring with Omar down in Cuba.

This trial against the only Canadian in Cuba has been going downhill for you guys pretty well since it began and if this trial fails for you guys, then a huge backlash will occur and a demand for most of the detainees from the international community will be heard quite loud.... so before that happens... you pass the buck.

Typical... by all means, tell me if I am getting warm.

SO, I guess the only course of action left to us is, let them all kill each other (and us) as much as they want, and issue strongly worded, condemnations, wring our hands, gnash our teeth and post on blogs about how evil it is.

Don't forget the original reasons why you were attacked in the first place.... interference. You're half right.... let them kill each other off and stop meddling in their affairs. If you're not trying to screw with their lives or kill them off, or air strike their villages, or change their religions or governments and you left them well alone.... why would they want to attack you in the first place?

(There, that should get a debate going )

 

[EagleSmack]

And I also bet you dimes to doughnuts that the reason why they were all sent to Afghanistan has partially to do with Canada's refusal to take a good chunk of your suspected terrorists from Cuba a few months ago. Nobody else would get involved in the dirty work, so you guys find someone who will and when the sh*t hits the fan and a % of these people who are found guilty are later found out to be innocent (Which already has occured on a number of these people) you guys can easily say you had nothing to do with it.... even though it is all based on evidence and fabricated documents and interviews which by that time will not even be able to be cross examined like they seem to be occuring with Omar down in Cuba.

Just curious if you have a link on the US trying to get Canada to take some off our hands. I'd like to read it.

This trial against the only Canadian in Cuba has been going downhill for you guys pretty well since it began and if this trial fails for you guys, then a huge backlash will occur and a demand for most of the detainees from the international community will be heard quite loud.... so before that happens... you pass the buck.

I think that is just your perception. We've heard from his lawyer and what you folks are saying but there is not too much else on what is going on.

Don't forget the original reasons why you were attacked in the first place.... interference. You're half right.... let them kill each other off and stop meddling in their affairs. If you're not trying to screw with their lives or kill them off, or air strike their villages, or change their religions or governments and you left them well alone.... why would they want to attack you in the first place?

(There, that should get a debate going )

Agreed. I am of the opinion that we step back after this Iraq thing and look out for ourselves for a long time. If other nations want to wear blue berets for the UN...fine...let them. But when they ask for US help meaning US soldiers...no thanks. Humanitarian aid...fine. If things break out in the Balkans again...oh well. Not our problem. Africa...not our problem. etc.

 

[Praxius]

Just curious if you have a link on the US trying to get Canada to take some off our hands. I'd like to read it.

Canada tells U.S. it won't take Guantanamo detainees
http://www.cbc.ca/news/yourview/2007/08/canada_tells_us_it_wont_take_g.html

"The Canadian government balked at several requests from Washington to provide asylum to men cleared for release from the U.S. military prison in Guantanamo Bay, say newly released documents.

The material, obtained by the Canadian Press under the Access to Information Act, indicates the U.S. administration asked Canada to accept detainees of Uighur decent from China's Xinjiang region who were deemed to be no threat to national security.

American officials travelled to Ottawa on three separate occasions in late 2005 to press their case with the Liberal government of the time, but to no avail. By May 2006, Washington had succeeded in persuading Albania to take five men, who now live in squalid conditions.

Today, 17 of the men are still being held and live in isolation for 22 hours a day.

Notes prepared for Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay in February this year suggest the government was still uncertain about whether it had the appetite for any future transfers."

My mistake, it's been a while since I read this, but I did remember reading about the US trying to pass some Cuban detainees to us.

What got me is that if they are cleared and are of no threat to the US.... then why didn't the US attempt to apologize and perhaps find them homes inside the US for their troubles? Infact, why were they not sent back to China.... in fact.... why try and pawn them off to Canada to begin with?

And to connect this to this article in thread.... why would the US send them to Afghanistan to begin with other then to make sure they didn't get a fair trial?

Agreed. I am of the opinion that we step back after this Iraq thing and look out for ourselves for a long time. If other nations want to wear blue berets for the UN...fine...let them. But when they ask for US help meaning US soldiers...no thanks. Humanitarian aid...fine. If things break out in the Balkans again...oh well. Not our problem. Africa...not our problem. etc.

Agreed... I believe Canada and other nations should take this same approach as well in the future.