April 9th, 2008, 04:29 PM
It struck me that, if Islam had spread to Spain at sword point, the likelihood of what the text describes would be zero.
Quoting senorita
I'm currently reading up on 'the history of psychology', and one of the huge components of the history is that of religion, the births of Greek philosophy, of Christianity, of Islam, and the way all interacted, brushed elbows, influenced one another, and finally, how Christianity and Islam warred over control of the people. While it doesn't go into great depth on the wars, or the causes of them, it does definitely make it sound like the spread of each religion was a fairly natural process. It discusses the philosophers Avicenna and Maimonides, coming from Cordova Spain at roughly the same time (1135'ish) when Jews and Muslims lived harmoniously.... before the Crusades were to sweep through and change it.
You've never seen a Muslim refuse such a point? I guess I'll be the first.
The best reply to the misconception that Islam was spread by the sword is given by the noted historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book "Islam at the cross road" (Page .eight):
"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated."
The best reply to the misconception that Islam was spread by the sword is given by the noted historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book "Islam at the cross road" (Page .eight):
"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated."
It struck me that, if Islam had spread to Spain at sword point, the likelihood of what the text describes would be zero.
Senate Member
Posts: 5,155 
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
April 9th, 2008, 11:46 PM
An Islamic website....
http://www.al-islam.org/restatement/20.htm
brags Mohammed launched 80 campaigns.....
Sorta sounds like "by the sword" to me.
As for Christians and Jews and Muslims living in harmony in Spain......it is very true that Islam was quite tolerant of "people of the Book" as Christians and Jews were known, Islam was, in fact, much more tolerant of Jews than the Christians of the reconquista (the re-taking of Spain by Christian forces), who usually murdered Jews (and Muslims) wholesale.
Pagans, however, were given the choice of conversion or death by Islam.
An Islamic website....
http://www.al-islam.org/restatement/20.htm
brags Mohammed launched 80 campaigns.....
Sorta sounds like "by the sword" to me.
As for Christians and Jews and Muslims living in harmony in Spain......it is very true that Islam was quite tolerant of "people of the Book" as Christians and Jews were known, Islam was, in fact, much more tolerant of Jews than the Christians of the reconquista (the re-taking of Spain by Christian forces), who usually murdered Jews (and Muslims) wholesale.
Pagans, however, were given the choice of conversion or death by Islam.
House Member
Posts: 3,066
April 10th, 2008, 08:34 AM
Quoting Colpy
There was also a pagan/people of the book, on again off again relationship with the Zoroastians, but I think that might be post-muhammed, I'd have to check again.
An Islamic website....
http://www.al-islam.org/restatement/20.htm
brags Mohammed launched 80 campaigns.....
Sorta sounds like "by the sword" to me.
As for Christians and Jews and Muslims living in harmony in Spain......it is very true that Islam was quite tolerant of "people of the Book" as Christians and Jews were known, Islam was, in fact, much more tolerant of Jews than the Christians of the reconquista (the re-taking of Spain by Christian forces), who usually murdered Jews (and Muslims) wholesale.
Pagans, however, were given the choice of conversion or death by Islam.
http://www.al-islam.org/restatement/20.htm
brags Mohammed launched 80 campaigns.....
Sorta sounds like "by the sword" to me.
As for Christians and Jews and Muslims living in harmony in Spain......it is very true that Islam was quite tolerant of "people of the Book" as Christians and Jews were known, Islam was, in fact, much more tolerant of Jews than the Christians of the reconquista (the re-taking of Spain by Christian forces), who usually murdered Jews (and Muslims) wholesale.
Pagans, however, were given the choice of conversion or death by Islam.
April 10th, 2008, 08:49 AM
But it's not as detailed a history as it could be, since it's mainly pertaining to the psychological concepts of each religion.
Quoting Zzarchov
I was under the impression, just from the timeline of introduced ideas in my text (not that they gave specific dates for the start or end of zoroastrianism), that they were pre-christianity and faded away or were swallowed up, shortly after Jesus was seized upon as Christ, so, 35-250 years or so after He died. Mahomet wasn't born until 570.
There was also a pagan/people of the book, on again off again relationship with the Zoroastians, but I think that might be post-muhammed, I'd have to check again.
But it's not as detailed a history as it could be, since it's mainly pertaining to the psychological concepts of each religion.
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Posts: 3,066
April 10th, 2008, 10:36 AM
No, Zoroastianism is still around today, at the time of the Muslim invasion of Persia it was still the state religion, practiced by the vast majority of the population (like everyone),
It went down so quickly because it was in a flux, they were having their own reformation moment between the corrupt entrenched church and Zoroastian idealists.
No, Zoroastianism is still around today, at the time of the Muslim invasion of Persia it was still the state religion, practiced by the vast majority of the population (like everyone),
It went down so quickly because it was in a flux, they were having their own reformation moment between the corrupt entrenched church and Zoroastian idealists.
April 10th, 2008, 11:08 AM
Quoting Zzarchov
Still being around today doesn't mean it didn't pretty much disappear then though does it (after the invasion of Persia, not before as I was thinking... thanks for clearing that timeline up for me)? Sort of like Paganism? Plenty of religions have seemingly disappeared, gone underground and re-emerged later.
No, Zoroastianism is still around today, at the time of the Muslim invasion of Persia it was still the state religion, practiced by the vast majority of the population (like everyone),
It went down so quickly because it was in a flux, they were having their own reformation moment between the corrupt entrenched church and Zoroastian idealists.
It went down so quickly because it was in a flux, they were having their own reformation moment between the corrupt entrenched church and Zoroastian idealists.
Electoral Member
Posts: 123
April 13th, 2008, 04:40 PM
And how do you know those Muslims who believe in peace and follow the real Islam...that they are not outraged? My dear don't go so far as to accuse the rest of us of 'perpetuating' such distortions... the statement wreaks of ignorance...and as popular as it might be, the theory of being spoon-fed by the media or a one sided close minded idiology...it is unhealthy for ones intelligence...
[/quote]
I take exception to your statement. It seems ignorance knows no bounds and the suppression of ideas and discussion promotes it as you seem want to do. What I was implying is, or perhaps my meaning was missed, is that IF Muslims are outraged, they are being exceptionally quiet about it. The few who have stood up have been threatened with death. So why aren't the Mulsims standing together, with the brave souls who have the courage to state the obvious - murder, in the name of Islam, is evil.
This specifically addresses Muslims, but again, I reiterate, no matter what religion is involved in the murder of people, the same thing applies. We ALL must stand up against the barbarianism. But when it comes to Muslims, it seems that any criticism ends up becoming a wholesale protest and even more people are hurt, property destroyed and threats made. I think that's the difference between Isalm and other religions.
JMO
And how do you know those Muslims who believe in peace and follow the real Islam...that they are not outraged? My dear don't go so far as to accuse the rest of us of 'perpetuating' such distortions... the statement wreaks of ignorance...and as popular as it might be, the theory of being spoon-fed by the media or a one sided close minded idiology...it is unhealthy for ones intelligence...
[/quote]I take exception to your statement. It seems ignorance knows no bounds and the suppression of ideas and discussion promotes it as you seem want to do. What I was implying is, or perhaps my meaning was missed, is that IF Muslims are outraged, they are being exceptionally quiet about it. The few who have stood up have been threatened with death. So why aren't the Mulsims standing together, with the brave souls who have the courage to state the obvious - murder, in the name of Islam, is evil.
This specifically addresses Muslims, but again, I reiterate, no matter what religion is involved in the murder of people, the same thing applies. We ALL must stand up against the barbarianism. But when it comes to Muslims, it seems that any criticism ends up becoming a wholesale protest and even more people are hurt, property destroyed and threats made. I think that's the difference between Isalm and other religions.
JMO
House Member
Posts: 3,066
April 14th, 2008, 08:48 AM
I'd like to point out, in most religions, murder is acceptable under the right conditions. People alway seem to gloss over that bit. Don't get me wrong, secular society says the same thing "murder is right under certain conditions". But acting like all religions are a bunch of pacifist happy friendly hour care-alongs is pretty insulting. More so when you claim anyone who mixes violence and religion is the one being fake, but the one who preaches pacifism is the true religion. In most cases the one preaching pacifism is the phony, as much as we might not like it.
I'd like to point out, in most religions, murder is acceptable under the right conditions. People alway seem to gloss over that bit. Don't get me wrong, secular society says the same thing "murder is right under certain conditions". But acting like all religions are a bunch of pacifist happy friendly hour care-alongs is pretty insulting. More so when you claim anyone who mixes violence and religion is the one being fake, but the one who preaches pacifism is the true religion. In most cases the one preaching pacifism is the phony, as much as we might not like it.
Nominee Member
Posts: 10
Location: Pakistan
Location: Pakistan
April 19th, 2008, 10:17 AM
Education is the main problem in my view.As you would notice that Islam belongs mostly to the 3rd world countries, people are illiterate and still belive without thinking.They don't even dare to question about the religon and the religous scholars are taking the benifit of that.They make the poor people fool...
Education is the main problem in my view.As you would notice that Islam belongs mostly to the 3rd world countries, people are illiterate and still belive without thinking.They don't even dare to question about the religon and the religous scholars are taking the benifit of that.They make the poor people fool...
Senate Member
Posts: 5,155
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
April 19th, 2008, 01:29 PM
The guys that did the bus/subway bombings in Great Britain were not ill-educated peasants from tents in the desert......neither were the 9-11 hijackers......
The problem is this....Christian belief is based on choice.....the choice to accept or reject the faith, leading to redemption or damnation.....whatever. It is the exercise of free will.
islam means submission..........no choice involved.
It is no accident that every free society on earth has evolved from a Christian tradition......except the Norse........and there was a tradition of concensus democracy.
In other words, the men were locked in the long house, and debate on contentious issues continued without a break until everyone agreed on the solution.....everyone alive, that is......
Interesting concept.
How to ease the burden of MP's salaries.
Quoting Zea Capri
The problem with that is that truth defies the logic of your argument.
Education is the main problem in my view.As you would notice that Islam belongs mostly to the 3rd world countries, people are illiterate and still belive without thinking.They don't even dare to question about the religon and the religous scholars are taking the benifit of that.They make the poor people fool...
The guys that did the bus/subway bombings in Great Britain were not ill-educated peasants from tents in the desert......neither were the 9-11 hijackers......
The problem is this....Christian belief is based on choice.....the choice to accept or reject the faith, leading to redemption or damnation.....whatever. It is the exercise of free will.
islam means submission..........no choice involved.
It is no accident that every free society on earth has evolved from a Christian tradition......except the Norse........and there was a tradition of concensus democracy.
In other words, the men were locked in the long house, and debate on contentious issues continued without a break until everyone agreed on the solution.....everyone alive, that is......
Interesting concept.
How to ease the burden of MP's salaries.
Nominee Member
Posts: 10
Location: Pakistan
Location: Pakistan
April 20th, 2008, 11:43 AM
You are right.One thing that I have noticed among people around me belonging to any class is that: they say no to debate when it is to the religion.They have a concept it's a sin...I am not sure does Islam teaches that or only the religious scholars.
You are right.One thing that I have noticed among people around me belonging to any class is that: they say no to debate when it is to the religion.They have a concept it's a sin...I am not sure does Islam teaches that or only the religious scholars.
Member
Posts: 92
Location: Ontario
Location: Ontario
April 22nd, 2008, 06:09 PM
Within the community I live in, a lot of Muslims are fed up of views such as the one you seem to hold. They have condemned and stood up against the violence. But at this point to be blunt, they wanna get on with their lives. Muslims, just like other people are human after all. They have families and jobs and schools. As much as you'd like, the community can't be bothered to take time out to hold mass protests anymore. Most Muslims are afraid to start even any peacful movements because they still disrupt the norm , and honestly they would rather have these talks, discussions whatever you wish to call it at the mosques or gatherings.
You previously mentioned that Islam was spread by the sword. The Prophet (Peace be upon him) was a great leader. But there were Muslim armies, and yes there was violence. They did not take over so much of the world by throwing each other tea parties . I think from a historical perspective, we have to agree that in order to spread as a people and in order to take over land, the option was war. However, bringing religion back into the picture, the Prophet did inform his people of the rules of war. Those I will post when I have more time.
It's lovely and hot outside, and I'm at the moment too busy getting my tan back...
Quoting Dixie Cup
Again like I previously stated you only see what the media represents. Go to a mosque. Do some research. You'll find some surprising information...the majority of Muslims stand up against violence.
I take exception to your statement. It seems ignorance knows no bounds and the suppression of ideas and discussion promotes it as you seem want to do. What I was implying is, or perhaps my meaning was missed, is that IF Muslims are outraged, they are being exceptionally quiet about it. The few who have stood up have been threatened with death. So why aren't the Mulsims standing together, with the brave souls who have the courage to state the obvious - murder, in the name of Islam, is evil.
This specifically addresses Muslims, but again, I reiterate, no matter what religion is involved in the murder of people, the same thing applies. We ALL must stand up against the barbarianism. But when it comes to Muslims, it seems that any criticism ends up becoming a wholesale protest and even more people are hurt, property destroyed and threats made. I think that's the difference between Isalm and other religions.
JMO
This specifically addresses Muslims, but again, I reiterate, no matter what religion is involved in the murder of people, the same thing applies. We ALL must stand up against the barbarianism. But when it comes to Muslims, it seems that any criticism ends up becoming a wholesale protest and even more people are hurt, property destroyed and threats made. I think that's the difference between Isalm and other religions.
JMO
Within the community I live in, a lot of Muslims are fed up of views such as the one you seem to hold. They have condemned and stood up against the violence. But at this point to be blunt, they wanna get on with their lives. Muslims, just like other people are human after all. They have families and jobs and schools. As much as you'd like, the community can't be bothered to take time out to hold mass protests anymore. Most Muslims are afraid to start even any peacful movements because they still disrupt the norm , and honestly they would rather have these talks, discussions whatever you wish to call it at the mosques or gatherings.
Quoting Colpy
Colpy, no matter what you decide to do in life, most often you choose to do it. If you follow Islam, you chooseto be a part of it. We don't believe in blind faith. The problem is not that we decide to submit to God, the problem is that too often people twist and tweak religion to suit their own beliefs.
The problem with that is that truth defies the logic of your argument.
The guys that did the bus/subway bombings in Great Britain were not ill-educated peasants from tents in the desert......neither were the 9-11 hijackers......
The problem is this....Christian belief is based on choice.....the choice to accept or reject the faith, leading to redemption or damnation.....whatever. It is the exercise of free will.
islam means submission..........no choice involved.
The guys that did the bus/subway bombings in Great Britain were not ill-educated peasants from tents in the desert......neither were the 9-11 hijackers......
The problem is this....Christian belief is based on choice.....the choice to accept or reject the faith, leading to redemption or damnation.....whatever. It is the exercise of free will.
islam means submission..........no choice involved.
You previously mentioned that Islam was spread by the sword. The Prophet (Peace be upon him) was a great leader. But there were Muslim armies, and yes there was violence. They did not take over so much of the world by throwing each other tea parties . I think from a historical perspective, we have to agree that in order to spread as a people and in order to take over land, the option was war. However, bringing religion back into the picture, the Prophet did inform his people of the rules of war. Those I will post when I have more time.
It's lovely and hot outside, and I'm at the moment too busy getting my tan back...
Senate Member
Posts: 5,155
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
April 22nd, 2008, 10:29 PM
I am not arguing that Christians are morally superior.
that would be idiotic.
I am arguing about the religion itself......Christianity being a religion of pacifism (originally) and choice......Islam a religion of submission and war.
Humans, being what they are, will twist any theology, philosophy, whatever, to their own ends.
Quoting gopher
You will see in my posts that I note that Jews especially were treated much worse by the conquistadors than they were by their Muslim rulers.......
"Pagans, however, were given the choice of conversion or death by Islam."
Illuminados and pagan gitanos suffered the same fate under the Reconquista. Therefore, Christians do not have the higher moral ground.
Illuminados and pagan gitanos suffered the same fate under the Reconquista. Therefore, Christians do not have the higher moral ground.
I am not arguing that Christians are morally superior.
that would be idiotic.
I am arguing about the religion itself......Christianity being a religion of pacifism (originally) and choice......Islam a religion of submission and war.
Humans, being what they are, will twist any theology, philosophy, whatever, to their own ends.
