Politicians and corruption, what comes first, the chicken or the egg?

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
1,509
37
48
Great Satan
So with all the recent scandals, especially here in the US, whoring, drug use, threesomes, nasty text messages...etc...

Is it just politics that attracts a certain personality type, i.e. douchbags? Or does being in Politics for a certain amount of time just turn a person onto the life of "douchebaggery"?

It hard to figure out. To be sure, there are good politicans out there, but lately, I can't really find much to say in the way of praise for them.

I'm not talking along left vs right lines here...I think they all, to put it in professional terms, suck.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
63
Power corrupts. Most of them likely go in with the right intentions.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
Thomaska

Greetings!

A 'poser' for sure but before getting into the issue itself I think it's appropriate that we recognize that "normal" behavior..(yes that's arguable..:) doesn't deserve praise or acclaim. The expectation we place on each other is that we comport ourselves with honesty integrity and respect for our fellows and that expectation applies eaqually to politicians and aspiring candidates....

Why do people become involved in seeking public office? Many see issues and situations that cry out for if not redress at least address. Some perhaps accept that their responsibility to the larger community, the "body" of mankind demands that representation be made on behalf of those members of society who through some series of events or overarching conditions do not recieve the attention nor find it within themselve's to actively participate in working to bring order to the chaos that inevitably erupts any time a group of human beings is brought or forced together. The nature of humanity is that (sorry if you find this offensive) men are not created equal....

The vast majority of people have a legitimate 'fear' of taking a step that sets them outside the safety of the herd. This anxiety to be seen as choosing to be separate from the many, that will entail public speaking or publishing of views opinions and ideas that might not 'sit-well' with that larger majority can be a daunting notion. Although humankind is termed a "social animal" that construct of identity is tacitly accepted as 'part-of' or 'party-to' the bulk of human membership within a social organizing principle.

In most cases membership in a community requries if not acquiesence to the ethos of the group, at least a willingness to conform to the structures/frameworks regarded as necessary and appropriate to that membership. While a basketball team or football team or any "team" for that matter is a group membership with a particular focus on an identifiable 'goal', without the oversight and leadership dynamic arriving in the form of a captain or a "leader", the efforts of the individual team members may be outstanding but the cohesion and mutuality of purpose and endeavor may prove less than adequate to the task.

Whether we like to admit it or not, we (human beings) look for and are willing to subscribe to a "leadership" or commit our efforts to the cause or issue that only a few and sometimes only the "one" has the skill and "authority" to characterize and establish as the outcome most desirable to the group.

The dynamics of "leadership" are varied and many, but the question I'd ask is why do the majority of people appear to be more than willing to subscribe to and participate in an enterprise like 'government' when after hundreds of years and examples far too numerous to provide, the "wealthy", the entrepreneur, the "rich" having made claim to some legitimate "right" of office are then proven time and time again to be subject to a propensity to "break the rules" and "ignore right and wrong"...?

Certainly part of "leadership" is skill at prioritizing when some action or measure demands that the "rules" be bent.... Although for example a hockey player may see a break-away member of the opposing team with an opportunity to score a goal and potentially change the outcome of the match, breaking some guy's neck or hitting him with your stick while frowned upon as unsportsmanlike....may be quietly aplauded by other team members even though "the team" earns a penalty for this behavior....

We (I believe social and psychological 'conditioning' plays a role) believe that fiscal acumen is indicative of sound judgment.... even if Bear Stearns, Enron fail magnifiently after a period of time, during the "hay-days" we're more than happy to buy into the future of these corporations....

Tough question Thomaska.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
I'm sorry, but not one of the things you mentioned... prostitution, drug use, threesomes, text messaging constitutes a corrupt behavior in politicians. More like common human behavior. I guess perhaps context is everything but, it seems to me that if humans do it, humans will do it. The first mistake a nation can make is to give its leaders more power than they would give their neighbors.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
Karrie

Perhaps it's not so much giving them more power than you'd give your neighbor but who you choose. The criteria involved, the self-interest that's involved....

You may have a kinder gentler view of mankind than I do....
 

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
1,509
37
48
Great Satan
I'm sorry, but not one of the things you mentioned... prostitution, drug use, threesomes, text messaging constitutes a corrupt behavior in politicians. More like common human behavior. I guess perhaps context is everything but, it seems to me that if humans do it, humans will do it. The first mistake a nation can make is to give its leaders more power than they would give their neighbors.

Granted, the behaviors I listed may not mean that the individual commiting them may be a corrupt politician. In fact, they may perform the duties of their office quite well. However, to my knowledge, I doubt that any of the polis that have been busted lately, quite literally with their pants down, ran on platforms that advocated drug use, infidelity, and use of the "Peoples' " money to arrange sexual encounters.

On a side note, Gov Elliot Spitzer was way over charged, no "nay nay" is worth $4000 an hour. Not even if it has a cape with an "S" on it, hanging out of there...

If it is common behavior, which it may be, is that any reason to tolerate it? I think not. However, as usually happens, these recent busts will go by the wayside and drop out of the news. And the perpetrators themselves will be left with nothing but a bruised image. N other serious consequences to speak of...

Not that they actually cared about their image in the first place, they were concerned about the facade they had propped up, which isnt the same thing, I think.

I think Kreskin may have had it correct. Power corrupts.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
"Power corrupts. Most of them likely go in with the right intentions."

It seems that just the opposite is true. Most politicians do not seek to enter public service with good intentions. They are of the oportunistic segment, they are personable, they are manipulative, they are liars and in many cases psycopaths and sociopaths. There are studies in support of these findings.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
Karrie

Perhaps it's not so much giving them more power than you'd give your neighbor but who you choose. The criteria involved, the self-interest that's involved....

Well, clearly when we hoist someone to a position of political power, we expect more of them than we expect of our neighbors. Which is silly. Do I expect my neighbor to not have affairs? Threesomes? To not succumb to drug use? No. Because frankly, they're all just people, and people have their vices. Would I excuse it if it's criminal behavior? No. But would I call it 'corruption' to commit a crime? Only if I'd put some ridiculous hope and set that person on a pedestal I suppose. To me corruption is when a politician works from within the system to injure it, or when there are bribes and wheelings and dealings going on that are unique to the position they've been put in. But everyday crimes (and not all of that list are even crimes) that aren't unique to their job? Is that 'corrupt'? Or just fricking dumb?

I don't know if I'd call my view kinder or gentler Mikey. I think it would be kinder to expect better of people.
 

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
1,509
37
48
Great Satan
Karrie

Perhaps it's not so much giving them more power than you'd give your neighbor but who you choose. The criteria involved, the self-interest that's involved....

You may have a kinder gentler view of mankind than I do....

On that note...it must be only the dumb or careless ones who are getting caught.

Think how many we are missing because they know how to cover their tracks...
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
63
Power and money don't change us, they allow us to do more of what we like to do. A person who likes to gamble will gamble more if given more money and access to it. An alcoholic will drink more if given more money and access to it. Someone who likes to bully people will do more of it when given the power to do so.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
63
"Power corrupts. Most of them likely go in with the right intentions."

It seems that just the opposite is true. Most politicians do not seek to enter public service with good intentions. They are of the oportunistic segment, they are personable, they are manipulative, they are liars and in many cases psycopaths and sociopaths. There are studies in support of these findings.
Aren't we all?
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
On that note...it must be only the dumb or careless ones who are getting caught.

Think how many we are missing because they know how to cover their tracks...

Or know how to keep their private life private. So often it's not corruption that kills of a politician. It's a publicly tarnished image. How is it that a sex scandal can tarnish a public image more than bribery? And on that note, why is it that failings in their private life are what the media sniffs after, rather than watching to see who might be up to some actual corrupt dealings?
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
Karrie

Perhaps we need to develop the notion of "morality"....;)

Do we want "moral leaders, leaders who subscribe to the 'accepted' moral framework of the population or do we want leaders prepared to venture outside the "moral" when necessity demands?

When Monica Lewinski caught Bill Clinton's eye?... was the operating premise that behavior that contradticted the marriage vow...i.e. was morally reprehensible or that "rank hath it's privileges"....? When Elliot Spitzer spent whatever sum to cheat on his wife, was that the "fruits of my labor" or was it a willingness to regard one's self as somehow above morality?

When George Bush lied to the American people (along with Rumsfeld Powell and dozens of others) was the attitude a moral principle or was it "in the interests" of the greater majority"....?

What about a two-tiered morality....kind of like wealth and poverty....
 

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
1,509
37
48
Great Satan
Or know how to keep their private life private. So often it's not corruption that kills of a politician. It's a publicly tarnished image. How is it that a sex scandal can tarnish a public image more than bribery? And on that note, why is it that failings in their private life are what the media sniffs after, rather than watching to see who might be up to some actual corrupt dealings?

Well, obviously the TMZ crowd in the world is more interested in threesomes than in actual corruption, but a willingness to betray or harm one's own family and friends can surely be seen as a precursor of willingness to betrayal of people (the Public) you dont give two shakes about.

I'm sure somewhere, sometime, someone famous has said said along the lines of

"How a man handles his private affairs directly reflects how he handles others outside of his family and friends"

Or something like that...I'm sure Dexter Sinister knows someone...:smile:
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
Karrie

Perhaps we need to develop the notion of "morality"....;)

Do we want "moral leaders, leaders who subscribe to the 'accepted' moral framework of the population or do we want leaders prepared to venture outside the "moral" when necessity demands?

When Monica Lewinski caught Bill Clinton's eye?... was the operating premise that behavior that contradticted the marriage vow...i.e. was morally reprehensible or that "rank hath it's privileges"....? When Elliot Spitzer spent whatever sum to cheat on his wife, was that the "fruits of my labor" or was it a willingness to regard one's self as somehow above morality?

When George Bush lied to the American people (along with Rumsfeld Powell and dozens of others) was the attitude a moral principle or was it "in the interests" of the greater majority"....?

What about a two-tiered morality....kind of like wealth and poverty....

Okay, now, Bush didn't do a single thing that is linked into what Thomaska opened this discussion with. Bush, THAT is corruption, somewhere along the line. The lying to get the reaction you want, THAT is a crime unique to the office to which they were elected. There is honest to goodness corruption of the political process going on there.

The rest, well, do they consider themselves above morality... that's a good question... why don't you ask it of all the other cheating spouses out there? I'm quite certain that getting a blow job from a pretty co-worker or employee isn't the sole honor of the President.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
... a willingness to betray or harm one's own family and friends can surely be seen as a precursor of willingness to betrayal of people (the Public) you dont give two shakes about.

I'm not advocating keeping a political figure who shows themselves to be lacking in character Thomaska. But, 'corruption'? That's a pretty heavy word for the 'crimes' you describe.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
Kreskin

Fess up to what?

I don't drink (never been an alcoholic) don't gamble (I assume you're talking lotteries and ponies as opposed to Vegas....

I have a moral undergirding that has resulted in sometimes terrible situations for me personally and for people around me, but I have been honest and trustworthy as long as I can remember.

I'm only telling you about my perspective and it is generally "true" that given the opportunity the average person will go after wealth he/she hasn't earned.... and will play loose and free with morality and "values" if self-interest overwhelms better judgment.

In part, this is why I personally reject "religion" and 'god'...I don't need someone to tell me the difference between right and wrong....

If anything, I've been entirely too honest and too forthright for my whole life.
 

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
1,509
37
48
Great Satan
I'm quite certain that getting a blow job from a pretty co-worker or employee isn't the sole honor of the President.

If someone runs for public office, claiming to embrace the value system in place, and gets busted acting contrary to said system, they should go down in flames.

Joe Schmoe paying a hooker twenty bucks for a BJ in an alley somewhere while cheating on his wife, is just as morally reprehensible as the President doing it, however Mr. Schmoe didn't get to that alley by promising to be the most "ethical president evah".

K, not trying to get into left vs right...that was just an example

Moral equivalence games? Maybe...but I was concerned more with the fact that we, as a people, get taken time and time again by politicians who tell us what we want to hear, and then just go do watever they want to do when they are elected.

It must be our fault, it is silly to hold people accountable for their actions I suppose...:lol: