Are Presidents Entitled to Kill Foreigners?


JBeee
#1
by James Bovard, October 5, 2007


What is the common term for ordering soldiers to kill vast numbers of innocent people?

A war crime.

But not when it is done on the command of the U.S. president.

Killing innocent foreigners seems to be a perk of the modern presidency — akin to the band’s playing “Hail to the Chief” when he enters the room.

Bush is revving up the war threats against Iran. Seymour Hersh reported in the current issue of the New Yorker that the administration is advancing plans to bomb many targets in Iran. British newspapers have confirmed that the Pentagon has a list of thousands of bombing targets. Hardly anyone claims that Iran poses a threat to the United States.

Yet few people in Washington seem to dispute the president’s right to attack Iran. It is as if the presidential whim is sufficient to justify blasting any foreign nation that does not kowtow to the commands of the U.S. government.

Jack Goldsmith, a former top Bush appointee in the Justice Department and now a Harvard Law professor, observes in his new book, The Terror Presidency, “The president and the vice president always made clear that a central administration priority was to maintain and expand the president’s formal legal powers.” And the power to attack foreign nations is one of the most valued prerogatives of today’s Republicans.

Bush’s top advisors — and especially the vice president — are devoted to a Nixonian view of absolute power for the commander in chief. After he was driven out of office in disgrace, Nixon told interviewer David Frost in 1977, “When the president does it that means that it is not illegal.” Frost, somewhat dumbfounded, replied, “By definition?” Nixon answered, “Exactly. Exactly.”

This seems to be the attitude of Bush and his war planners towards Tehran. Pentagon Deputy Assistant Secretary Debra Cagan recently told several British Members of Parliament that “I hate all Iranians.” Perhaps Cagan got her position because of such prejudice towards nations that Bush formally designated as “evil.” At the same time that Congress is considering hate-crime legislation, ethnic hatred may be driving U.S. plans to slaughter Iranians.

For Bush, attacking Iran may simply be a question of checking off another item on his final To Do list — or one more wild swing at making himself a legacy. Bush told a biographer that, after he leaves office, he looks forward to receiving “ridiculous” (in his words) speaking fees of $75,000 per talk. He is also looking forward to putting in some time on his “fantastic” Freedom Institute.

The fact that thousands or hundreds of thousands of Iranians might die is irrelevant. Bush appears far more concerned about baseball statistics than the body counts compiled by the U.S. military abroad. The fact that many Americans could also die — either during the attack or from Iranian retaliation on U.S. forces in Iraq — doesn’t appear to be costing Bush any sleep.

No American politician has ever been sentenced to death for ordering U.S. soldiers to kill innocent foreigners. Such orders have gone out many times — from the Philippines in the early 1900s, to Haiti in the 1910s, to Vietnam in the 1960s. There have been many other conflicts in which American presidents rubber-stamped U.S. military rules of engagement that guaranteed carnage among foreign women and children.

Americans cannot expect to have good presidents if presidents are permitted to make themselves tsars. The president and his top officials should face the same perils common citizens face when they are accused of breaking the law. Seeing a president answer for his crimes would be public education at its best. Consider how the subsequent course of American foreign policy might have differed if Lyndon Johnson or Richard Nixon had been tried, convicted in federal court, and punished for committing war crimes.

Perhaps Bush thinks that starting another foreign war will help boost demand for his speeches among groups that want to see U.S. forces kill more Muslims. But if he cares about freedom as much as he claims, he will cease acting as though he is above the law. And if Bush refuses to restrain himself, Americans should remember the wisdom of Thomas Jefferson. Sometimes the threat of a noose is the best way to keep the peace.
 
goat
#2
Quote:

What is the common term for ordering soldiers to kill vast numbers of innocent people?

A war crime.

Hardly.

It is called murder
 
triedit
#3
I see your password issue has been resolved...
 
thomaska
#4
So what will James Bovard do when Bush leaves office without attacking Iran?

I mean afterall, one of his mouth-breathing pals said we were on a 30 day countdown to war with Iran back in March or April. 30 days came and went, no war.

So I guess he could open up a telephone psychic hotline or something, or maybe that's where he's getting his remarkable insight from to begin with.
 
goat
#5
Unless he has been hanging about on fourms replete with more than just a copious amount of anti-Americanism.

He couldn't possibly be posting here.

Could he
 
#juan
No Party Affiliation
Avatar
#6
For one thing, there is not copious amounts of anti-Americanism on this forum. It doesn't make one anti-American to acknowledge the three million civilian deaths in Viet Nam or the Million in Cambodia and Laos. These things did happen. The unnecessary civilian deaths in Iraq also happened.
 
goat
#7
Careful.

You expose your soft underbelly
 
Liberalman
Avatar
#8
America even kills Canadian allied soldiers and as far as Americans are concerned it part of war.

Killing of innocent civilians in a war zone doesn’t bother the American people.

We have to remember that America was started by a revolution they are the modern day Klingons, war is in their blood.

If you look at their history since 1776 every president had a war going on in their term
 
gopher
No Party Affiliation
Avatar
#9



I am a good student of USA history and have never seen any president characterized as a terrorist or imperialist as often as Bush has been. There can be no question that he lied about WMD in order to start a war that would generate profits for the wealthy elites who run this country and that his current campaign against Iran is done under the same motivation.

Impeachment, removal, and Nuremburg Tribunal -- this is what Bush deserves.

Professor Ben Ferencz (the man who invented the Nuremburg Doctrine) said this a long time ago.
 
Kreskin
#10
Hillary is going to kick some Darfurian butts.

*or maybe not*
 
YoungJoonKim
#11
HAHA
Hilary got no guts, she will instead make huge wall between Canada and United States as she still claims terrorists come from Canada..
yeah right. *cough*

Ah geez, is this the face of American politic? Why is Hilary and Guiliani getting support?
This is ridiculous..
to me, they both seem phony bony.
 
mapleleafs67
Free Thinker
#12
i wonder if any kids from sesame street enlisted into the army?
 
daisygirl
#13
This is the latest weapon from Sesame Street.

 
Just the Facts
Free Thinker
Avatar
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by JBeeeView Post

Bush is revving up the war threats against Iran.

Ahmadinjihad is on his world "I hate America, let's all hate America together" tour, but bush is revving up war threats.

Guys like this are the best thing that ever happened to Iranian propaganda.
 
Unforgiven
#15
Don't be hatin'! heh heh

Quote: Originally Posted by #juanView Post

For one thing, there is not copious amounts of anti-Americanism on this forum. It doesn't make one anti-American to acknowledge the three million civilian deaths in Viet Nam or the Million in Cambodia and Laos. These things did happen. The unnecessary civilian deaths in Iraq also happened.

 
triedit
#16
Who defines what deaths are neccessary or unneccessary?
 
Unforgiven
#17
Gun nuts and abortion doctors.

Quote: Originally Posted by trieditView Post

Who defines what deaths are neccessary or unneccessary?

 
MikeyDB
#18
If China decided to reaffirm its "right" to Formosa...Taiwan...and launched air strikes against that island, the United States would call it war....

If Russia moved troops into various regions there were once part of the USSR and launched air strikes and armor against these regions, America would call it war.....

If ANYONE were to pre-emptively attack Israel...say Lebanon or Syria or anyone else who the Israelis identify as "terrorists", Americans would call that war....

It is the United States who reserves the right to tell the world what is and what isn't "war", what is and what isn't "terrorism", what is and what isn't "democracy"....

If there's any Anti-Americanism it's for a reason. It might be in response to America's re-definition of the English language when it comes to war politics and corruption....

It might be because the rest of the world while by turn, happily subjugated to the corporate appetites of the American people ...and pleased to be receiving aid and "support" from America.....

It might be because the world (except for Walter of course) is slowly beginning to understand that America and American style political and economic dynamics are behind global warming and rampant corruption throughout the world.....

It might be because the world is expecting that the appetites and attitudes of Americans, who've always done so well at making war and building their nation on the backs of slaves and profiteering from war and conflict are simply anxious to get on with the next bit of "big-stick" mentality in Iran and fully expect that there will be some very serious consequences that the United States of America will both unwittingly and with full intention impose on every living being on this planet....

There's lot's of reasons for Anti-Americanism......

But like most things.....people will cling to their desperate fantasies and ignore what's happening around them until the manure hits the fan....

Very American this predisposition to fiddle while Rome burns....
 
Niflmir
Free Thinker
Avatar
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by trieditView Post

Who defines what deaths are neccessary or unneccessary?

It is generally agreed that self defense and natural causes are "necessary" deaths. Preemptive self defense is not recognized anywhere in the world that I am aware of. In the case of self defense there is also a concept of a balanced response; in personal terms using a machine gun on a crowd to take out a man who is attempting to molest your child would not be a balanced response. Although smashing somebody in the face with a baseball bat because it was the only thing handy is. There are a lot of compounding factors, reading through various self defense cases can elucidate these concepts.
 
triedit
Avatar
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

It is generally agreed that self defense and natural causes are "necessary" deaths. Preemptive self defense is not recognized anywhere in the world that I am aware of. In the case of self defense there is also a concept of a balanced response; in personal terms using a machine gun on a crowd to take out a man who is attempting to molest your child would not be a balanced response. Although smashing somebody in the face with a baseball bat because it was the only thing handy is. There are a lot of compounding factors, reading through various self defense cases can elucidate these concepts.

See, this is what I have an issue with. Now keep in mind that Im not "pro war" etc.

War is messy business. Trying to legislate fairness into it is ridiculous. I also believe that this is why wars go on so long--people try to make them play nice during a war.

Why are there any rules of warfare at all? If folks could be fair and play by the rules there would never be a war.
 
MikeyDB
#21
Niflmir

It's all a matter of degree...right?

Incinerating hundreds of thousands of Japanese with night after night of incendiary bomings then dropping two nuclear bombs on them.....a little over-kill or "just what the doctor ordered"....

Surrounding a compound holding children and women who've done nothing to harm anyone....playing blaring rock music and eventually using an armored vehicle to break through the wall and deny using incendiary devices and the military for domestic problems (both against American law) and over-seeing the deaths of innocent children....."appropriate escalation of response" or simply more American bloodlust.....

Toxifying hundreds of thousands of acres of the planet where children are still being born with deformities and the carnage continues ...long after America and its agent orange and agent purple are gone.... suitable and appropriate action to another "urgent" necessity like WMDs in Iraq.....

Who's the neighborhood bully with the longest list of unbridled violence against men women and children in other nations from Haiti and the Carribbean to Chile and Nicaragua and Indonesia.....

Would that be Russia.....maybe France......perhaps its Britain......

Nope.

We all know who it is....
 
dancing-loon
Avatar
#22
Hi;
an interesting read here!
I think the ordinary American citizens are against the war in Irak now and Iran in the future. The support in the polls is barely 30%, which means that a lot of Republican folks are no longer with Mr. Bush. The only reason that he hasn't been fired yet, is that he is leaving soon anyway.
 
MikeyDB
#23
Dancing Loon

Is it the measure of a "democracy" that the will of the citizens of a nation takes second place to the clock? When a people surrender their will, their constitution and their freedoms to corporate cabals and embedded special interests (within the Whitehouse) that nation ceases to be a democracy.

Of course "democracy" was over in the United States at the end of the Second World War and nobody let the common rabble know....
 
Just the Facts
Free Thinker
Avatar
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDBView Post

If China decided to reaffirm its "right" to Formosa...Taiwan...and launched air strikes against that island, the United States would call it war....

Go get a recently published map and see if you can find Tibet. What's happening in Nepal. Don't tell, the Maoists there are bushies.

Quote:

If ANYONE were to pre-emptively attack Israel...say Lebanon or Syria or anyone else who the Israelis identify as "terrorists", Americans would call that war....

If? Israel gets attacked every day.

Quote:

It is the United States who reserves the right to tell the world what is and what isn't "war", what is and what isn't "terrorism", what is and what isn't "democracy"....

We all reserve that right. Everyone has an opinion.

Quote:

If there's any Anti-Americanism it's for a reason. It might be in response to America's re-definition of the English language when it comes to war politics and corruption....

Have you ever heard of a program, comes on the television, s'called the news?

Quote:

It might be because the world (except for Walter of course) is slowly beginning to understand that America and American style political and economic dynamics are behind global warming and rampant corruption throughout the world.....

Funny you should mention that. I was sitting in a second story restaurant on Spadina a few weeks ago, watching traffic go by as I waited for my meal. I was struck by the number of SUV's. It must have been 75% at least SUV's and minivans.

Edit: In the heart of the city!!
My buddies neighbor, lives right downtown, has two SUV's. Shiny clean, gleaming SUV's. These are not off-roader type people. Again, gas-guzzling trucks used for urban transport.

Americans are forcing that?

Quote:

But like most things.....people will cling to their desperate fantasies and ignore what's happening around them until the manure hits the fan....

You got that right!
 
Niflmir
Free Thinker
Avatar
#25
I think those are certainly the relevant histories Mikey.

Quote: Originally Posted by trieditView Post

See, this is what I have an issue with. Now keep in mind that Im not "pro war" etc.

War is messy business. Trying to legislate fairness into it is ridiculous. I also believe that this is why wars go on so long--people try to make them play nice during a war.

Why are there any rules of warfare at all? If folks could be fair and play by the rules there would never be a war.

There are rules of warfare to attempt to maintain humanity amidst a genuine crisis. You are correct, wars should never happen, and that is why the relevant parties are always jockeying for righteousness. I believe in the "Iraq war is Genocide" thread, I posted a link to an international document that rationalized war laws.

If the individuals who attempted to force the warriors to play nice succeeded the wars would not drag on, they would terminate immediately. The very first rule for these humanists is "No aggression." So you defend if shot at, but don't open fire otherwise. Clearly someone always breaks this rule, which is how war gets started in the first place.

Saying it is ridiculous to legislate fairness is equivalent to saying that warriors should have a blank check to commit whatever act they desire. Obviously we don't want soldiers committing rape, so we obviously must have rules on how war can be carried out. Don't for a second think that these laws obstruct "legitimate" warfare.

However, very few wars are legitimate these days. An army invades an invariably weak nation and the opposition they face is mostly made up of militia people and guerrillas. The guerrillas hide in crowds to draw unbalanced response from the invaders, the civilians involved see the lack of balance, interpret it as a lack of justice and join the underdogs: the guerrillas.

The point that I am trying to further here is that you cannot throw out the book without justifying atrocities, and I genuinely mean that: atrocities. Gonzales and his endorsement of simulated drowning pales in comparison to what humans would do given a blank check. But there are some genuinely justified civilian deaths, even in Iraq, which come about from the social climate there and have nothing to do with whether the war had justification to begin with.

However, firing "precision" missiles into Baghdad at the start of the war and killing civilians was not collateral damage. In the terms of the American legal system it was clear and reckless danger, for anyone who knows about the actual precision of non-linear control theory and rocket propulsion. These deaths were completely unnecessary and completely foreseeable.
 
Niflmir
Free Thinker
Avatar
#26
Here is the document I mentioned, Triedit. I really recommend reading it if you are interested in the state of humanitarian law during war at the present epoch. I don't remember it using any legalese, but I could be used to it by now.

--
 
MikeyDB
#27
Niflmir

Isn't it appropriate and just to reach the conclusion, given the fact that no American uprising against the Bush administration and the puppeteers responsible for turning America into a Banana Republic translates as approval for killing thousands of innocent people?

If a government isn't under the control of its people and its much vaunted "constitution" is vulnerable to re-writes to serve the interests of big money and big profits for the few...isn't it fair to say either...

America is the way Americans want it to be: and that includes killing anyone who stands in their way.

Or

America is in a rapidly escalating decline and the people of America are so out-of-touch with what's going on in their country (or don't care) that their nationhood and their altruistic rehetoric are window dressing and not much more?

Where does the "truth" lay when a citizenry permits its government (particularly more damning when that nation and those people espouse loudly and at great length about how wonderful and perfect their system of government is....to embark on a trip backward through time.....

Back to when Britainia ruled the waves and Spain was slaughtering millions in Central and Southern America... a time-trip back to imperialism but based not on the divine right of kings but he divine right of the lackey feeding the appetites of a disenfranchised people?
 
Niflmir
Free Thinker
Avatar
#28
MikeyDB,

I would tend to side more on the state of decline side of that or, but instead of saying the citizens are out of touch, I would instead suggest that the conventional tools of accountability have eroded. I posted here a link on another thread that you might have read or not, but in the context of this direction I imagine my reposting it are justified. --.

At the same time, the American people are drowning in a pool of extreme propaganda. On the one hand the government posts all sorts of dehumanizing propaganda justifying depriving "terrorists" of basic human rights at the same time as propaganda denying it is happening. Simultaneously, the public from foreign nations demonizes the American public, pushing them into the comforting rationalisations of the government. Drowning in a sea of false information, they tune out or search for independent voices or hope for a better future, hoping that the tools of accountability haven't eroded completely.

Even the picture I attempt to paint is somewhat bleak, and I am trying to lighten it up. I am of course biased in that I view the war in Iraq as a war of aggression and so all the dead Iraqis and Americans in that war weigh in on the heads of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, Bennett, Rice and others. But when the people elect officials does every action which follows have the full democratic support, notwithstanding the reality of Bennett? I would say no.

Democracy is hard. It is a full time job to stay informed about all the going ons. Most people don't have that time between their career and their home life. In any case I find it personally difficult to blame individuals who saw the tools of accountability fall apart in their hands, but those who justify the atrocities... Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, CIA flights to secret prisons all over the place, and of course our hands aren't clean either. Don't forget Maher Arar!
 
Colpy
Conservative
Avatar
#29
I digress, but

this thread reminds me of the story my buddy told me......

When he lived in Texas, his next door neighbour was a red-neck biker type. One day he was showing my friend his new chopped .45 ACP 1911 semi-auto pistol...........my buddy asks (in his best Canadian way) "What do you have THAT for?"

"Oh", replies Red, "This is just for shooting cans............."



"You know, Mexi-CANS, Puerto-Ri-CANS............."

Terrible, racist, politically incorrect, I know, but it cracked me up completely.
 
hermanntrude
Avatar
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by trieditView Post

See, this is what I have an issue with. Now keep in mind that Im not "pro war" etc.

War is messy business. Trying to legislate fairness into it is ridiculous. I also believe that this is why wars go on so long--people try to make them play nice during a war.

Why are there any rules of warfare at all? If folks could be fair and play by the rules there would never be a war.

you make a good point here. In an ideal world war would not happen. once it starts we should all realise that any "rules" laid down are likely to go right out the window. Trying to put rules onto war is a little like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end
 

Similar Threads

9
Do Presidents Have the Right to Kill
by JBeee | Nov 13th, 2008
1
Ex-Presidents not cheap to keep!
by dancing-loon | Apr 14th, 2008
1
Now foreigners have a go at our Crouchy.
by Blackleaf | Jun 18th, 2006
0
Impeaching Presidents for Stains
by moghrabi | Jun 11th, 2005
no new posts