War, in general...

[thomaska]

I was sitting around on the porch readin' George Orwell's 1984(again) and came across this paragraph:

The essential act of war is destruction, not necessarily of human lives, but of the products of human labor. War is a way of shattering into pieces, or pouring into the stratosphere, or sinking into the depths of the sea, materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable, and hence, in the long run, too intelligent.

So, to me, after reading that, and comparing it to what our lives are like now, I'm fairly well convinced that isn't just western society that has problems with the so-called military/industrial complexes. I'm fairly certain that all certain "inner party" sides/factions/sects...etc, are profiting from death and destruction in today's wars over religion, resources, and ideology. And not just the "good guys"...whomever your good guys happen to be.

So, are we all still being used, much like a landed noble might have used the commoners a thousand years ago?

Or, have I just had too many beers, and I'm getting Orwell's message wrong?

Thoughts?

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

No ,i think you getting there...pun intended...

I love 1984....it reminds me of today..the whole terrorist fear mongering...It works for me as i'm scared of terrorists...

i get this nagging part of me,reminding me of the message of 1984..It's in Bowies words as he sang the tune 1984"We'll build a glass assylum with just a hint of mayhem."

It's my relief from the inevitable terrorist use of the bomb on one of our cities......I hold unto the message of 1984 and sleep better...lol

Beer apperently worked for most of Gordon Lightfoots hits ya know, he once said most of his best work was written while being blind drunk....YAY....

 

[Colpy]

Thomaska, I resent your blatant attempt to confuse my countrymen......a US Marine that reads Orwell, I mean REALLY! :shock:

Winston Smith's doomed acts of lustful defiance and rebellion have long made him my literary hero.....but on to the question at hand.........

I think Orwell was not dealing with war as it is today, in the the democracies anyway. After all, the democracies do not war with each other, and your own country is driving itself into deep financial trouble by cutting taxes at the same time it vastly increases military spending in an attempt to wage war and keep the masses awash in consumer goods.........guns and butter at the same time, as it were........

Now some of the less open societies use hatred and war to hold their nation together, despite abuses by their own elites. The best example would be Saudi Arabia, who used radical Islam to forment unity in the guise of hatred of Israel in an attempt to forestall unrest against an obscenely rich, corrupt elite........

Am I making sense here?

I'm beat.

 

[Colpy]

No ,i think you getting there...pun intended...

I love 1984....it reminds me of today..the whole terrorist fear mongering...It works for me i'm scared of terrorists...i get the nagging part of reminding me of the message of 1984..as Bowie sang the tune as well"We'll build a glass assylum with just a hint of mayhem."

It's my relief from the inevitable terrorist use of the bomb on one of our cities......

Beer apperently worked for most of Gordon Lightfoots hits ya know, he once said most of his best work was written while being blind drunk....YAY....

Yeah, that's true, there is a fair amount of terrorist fear-mongering......and certainly the state has used the existence of terrorist to indulge itself with a massive power grab.

And I meant to say that I am not at all sure that is the same thing Orwell spoke of..........

 

[thomaska]

No ,i think you getting there...pun intended...

I love 1984....it reminds me of today..the whole terrorist fear mongering...It works for me as i'm scared of terrorists...

i get this nagging part of me,reminding me of the message of 1984..It's in Bowies words as he sang the tune 1984"We'll build a glass assylum with just a hint of mayhem."

It's my relief from the inevitable terrorist use of the bomb on one of our cities......I hold unto the message of 1984 and sleep better...lol

Beer apperently worked for most of Gordon Lightfoots hits ya know, he once said most of his best work was written while being blind drunk....YAY....

Its the whole "War is Peace" slogan. Like Orwell says, keeping the masses complacent and in "their place" can be achieved by total peace or total war. War just seems to generate a little bit more money tho...

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

Yeah, that's true, there is a fair amount of terrorist fear-mongering......and certainly the state has used the existence of terrorist to indulge itself with a massive power grab.

Look at the amount of surveliance we have. Look at the amount of looking into our lives is welcomed ...we welcome what would have been so protested about 25 years ago.
Hell i remember when seatbelts became mandatory it had people crying foul....

 

[thomaska]

Thomaska, I resent your blatant attempt to confuse my countrymen......a US Marine that reads Orwell, I mean REALLY! :shock:

Winston Smith's doomed acts of lustful defiance and rebellion have long made him my literary hero.....but on to the question at hand.........

I think Orwell was not dealing with war as it is today, in the the democracies anyway. After all, the democracies do not war with each other, and your own country is driving itself into deep financial trouble by cutting taxes at the same time it vastly increases military spending in an attempt to wage war and keep the masses awash in consumer goods.........guns and butter at the same time, as it were........

Now some of the less open societies use hatred and war to hold their nation together, despite abuses by their own elites. The best example would be Saudi Arabia, who used radical Islam to forment unity in the guise of hatred of Israel in an attempt to forestall unrest against an obscenely rich, corrupt elite........

Am I making sense here?

I'm beat.

Making total sense to me. Much as Bush does, every world leader in history worth his stones has found or attempted to find, an enemy abroad to focus the people's ire on, instead of domestic issues.

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

Its the whole "War is Peace" slogan. Like Orwell says, keeping the masses complacent and in "their place" can be achieved by total peace or total war. War just seems to generate a little bit more money tho...

They created enemies in 1984???

Presently I think the government just did not miss the oportunity to speed up the police state all governments actually want today.
It's power, more power to yield ....and we welcome it for we are terrified.

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

Making total sense to me. Much as Bush does, every world leader in history worth his stones has found or attempted to find, an enemy abroad to focus the people's ire on, instead of domestic issues.

I agree....military spending goes right into politicians friends hands as well....it's so easy to say who gets what contract, and alerted to what is needed.

sooooo Russia planted flags on the artic floor in our space Today...
How's that for a diversionary bonus

 

[thomaska]

Thomaska, I resent your blatant attempt to confuse my countrymen......a US Marine that reads Orwell, I mean REALLY! :shock:

Actually..my wife rolled her eyes at me when she saw what I was reading....:smile:

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

Actually..my wife rolled her eyes at me when she saw what I was reading....:smile:

ahhh an honest one.....hmmm ..how can i twist this to my benefit....mwwwuuuuaaaaaahahahahahaha

 

[thomaska]

sooooo Russia planted flags on the artic floor in our space Today...
How's that for a diversionary bonus

I read about that today actually...I think your air force should do a fly over of the Kremlin and drop about a billion maple leaf marked hockey pucks on their heads.

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

I read about that today actually...I think your air force should do a fly over of the Kremlin and drop about a billion maple leaf marked hockey pucks on their heads.

juan has been going on about this for some time now....it got my attention tonight on ctv....I think were going to look so inept...and russia gets to bloat it's bear status....friggin pricks we fed them when no one would....

 

[thomaska]

juan has been going on about this for some time now....it got my attention tonight on ctv....I think were going to look so inept...and russia gets to bloat it's bear status....friggin pricks we fed them when no one would....

Perhaps sending some DSV's or something down there...retrieving the offending flags, and mailing them back to Vladimir Putin Esq. would send the appropriate message?

After wiping a polar bear's a$$ with them of course...

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

Perhaps sending some DSV's or something down there...retrieving the offending flags, and mailing them back to Vladimir Putin Esq. would send the appropriate message?

After wiping a polar bear's a$$ with them of course...

AAHAHAHAHAHA
...i think the beers are doing a lightfoot thang here...have another

 

[s243a]

I don't think it matters weather Orwell is right or not about war. We still need to fight big bother regardless. We have to stop this attitude that the state can protect us from everything.

 

[Niflmir]

To control your own population you unleash a war against some nefarious state. It is much better if you built this nefarious state to begin with, then you will know all the truly terrible details. You divulge this information to justify, in the words of the Nuremburg trial, "That greatest of all international crimes, the war of aggression." As deaths start to mount, concern with public policy dwindles and a government is free to carry out its business without scrutiny.

Meanwhile, in the other nation you install a weak government and allow your multinational corporations to steal the primary resources. Tax money is funneled from social spending at home into rebuilding efforts abroad, ensuring the low classes stay low. Those corporations will eventually integrate into the society and control the government and the aggressors are free to move on.

The destruction of labor through war is one method of control during a war but not the ultimate purpose. If you generalize your concept of labor to include the revenue that a government receives from taxes on labor then this becomes true. Resources that could be used to better human condition is used to instead destroy it.

 

[Unforgiven]

I was sitting around on the porch readin' George Orwell's 1984(again) and came across this paragraph:

The essential act of war is destruction, not necessarily of human lives, but of the products of human labor. War is a way of shattering into pieces, or pouring into the stratosphere, or sinking into the depths of the sea, materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable, and hence, in the long run, too intelligent.

So, to me, after reading that, and comparing it to what our lives are like now, I'm fairly well convinced that isn't just western society that has problems with the so-called military/industrial complexes. I'm fairly certain that all certain "inner party" sides/factions/sects...etc, are profiting from death and destruction in today's wars over religion, resources, and ideology. And not just the "good guys"...whomever your good guys happen to be.

So, are we all still being used, much like a landed noble might have used the commoners a thousand years ago?

Or, have I just had too many beers, and I'm getting Orwell's message wrong?

Thoughts?

I think in fact we are but further the enemy is manufactured to guarantee the political machine runs smoothly. If we can accept that there is a group that operates out of sight of the public on behalf of the group to ensure that there is always a war to turn to for political cover, then it follows that a long established management plan is at work and has been for some time.

Political parties can come and go but the machine will live on in perpetual bureaucracy as the weapon of choice to keep the common man down.

 

[Unforgiven]

I don't think it matters weather Orwell is right or not about war. We still need to fight big bother regardless. We have to stop this attitude that the state can protect us from everything.

A typo??? of epic proportions nailing the irony.

 

[TomG]

1984 is often thought of as anti-communist, but Orwell himself was a socialist and member of a Marxist workers party, and he fought with the internationals against the nationalists in the Spanish civil war. He was anti-Bolshevik rather than anti-communist and anti-totalitarian rather than pro-democratic. The Bolsheviks outlawed the workeer’s party Orwell was a member of and he had to flee Spain or risk being murdered.

He fought in a war rather than opposing one; he did oppose the later war with Germany but also opposed fascism. He thought that ‘an essential element of liberty is the right to tell people what they don’t want to hear.’ A main point in 1984 is that that war is accompanied by the destruction of language (eg. war is peace). Orwell was consistent. You can’t tell people what they don’t want to hear when language is destroyed. An essential element of totalitarianism is control of communications. Big brother says it all—does all the talking, controls language.

The Bolsheviks in ’30’s couldn’t be truly totalitarian, because an adequate technology to control communications wasn’t developed. I wonder what Orwell would think of our present western democracies? What does freedom and democracy mean? What is the evil axis, what is terrorism? What is war?

Is war what has destroyed the meaning of the words we use to describe it and those governments that brings it to us? Is war that which deprives us of the right to tell people what they don’t want to hear? Totalitarianism seems possible today, and perhaps it has been achieved. We chase after terrorist boogiemen while corporate crooks steal a generation’s retirement savings.

Solzhenitsyn’s comment on war is that leaders need victories, but the people need defeats. Von Clausewitz's comment on war was don’t fight one, but if you are forced the first principle of winning is to maintain the moral high-ground. Where is our moral ground? Elie Wiesel asks in his Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech: "Can this be true? This is the twentieth century, not the Middle Ages. Who would allow such crimes to be committed? How could the world remain silent?" We only found the language to dispel the silence Wiesel deplored decades after the Allied victory. What silences do we have today?

Orwell reported on war as opposed to writing about it. He wrote about the human condition and about language. He is worth reading. He was not anti-communist however