I'm thinking of converting to Zionism!

Machjo

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After all the debates over Zionism, I'd decided to look more into the movement and its history. I'd found out that the founder of political Zionism was Theodore Herzl, so where best to get the facts from than from the mouth of the horse himself.

And this are some of the eloquent pearls of wisdom I've been able to find from his honeyed pen and tongue:

“It is essential that the sufferings of Jews. . . become worse. . . this will assist in realization of our plans. . .I have an excellent idea. . . I shall induce anti-semites to liquidate Jewish wealth. . . The anti-semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-semites shall be our best friends”. (From his Diary, Part I, pp. 16)
Additional words from the vivid imagination of this dreamer, from p. 68 of Part I of his Diary.
So anti-Semitism, which is a deeply imbedded force in the subconscious mind of the masses, will not harm the Jews. I actually find it to be advantageous to building the Jewish character, education by the masses that will lead to assimilation. This education can only happen through suffering, and the Jews will adapt.
What a beautiful, humanistic ideology!

Now now, it's might not be fair to assume that Zionism hasn't evolved at least just a tad since its foundation, and who says all Zionists follow the teachings of their founder to a T?

True, so let's look at following events, shall we:

In 1921, Germans in Germany were told that:
“We Jews are aliens… a foreign people in your midst and we… wish to stay that way. A Jew can never be a loyal German; whoever calls the foreign land his Fatherland is a traitor to the Jewish people“.
Who spoke these vile words? It was Jacob Klatzkin, the second of two political Zionist ideologists in Germany at the time, where the Jews of Germany were enjoying full political and civil rights. It was he who had advocated undermining Jewish communities as the one certain way of acquiring a state. “They had no qualms concerning tearing down the existing Jewish communities.”
Who spoke in a public address at a political Zionist meeting in Berlin and declared that “Germany… has too many Jews”? Was it Hitler or Goebbels? No, it was Chaim Weizman, later to become the first President of the State of Israel. This address was published in 1920, and, thus, four years before Hitler had even written Mein Kampf.

Again, it's not fair to assume that just because Zionists happen to agree with Nazis on a few points, taht they're all the same. After all, even I agree with Hitler's statement when he stated that we ought to care for the next generatin of German children. Only I wouldn't limit it to German children only. So hey, besides, thi sis before Hitler came to power. I'm shure the Zionists had come to their senses by the time Nazi Germany was in ful swing:

During World War II, the Lehi organization, an offshoot of Begin’s Irgun that was headed by Yitzchak Shamir sought an alliance with Nazis! The following is a quote from the writings of the Lehi in their contact with the Nazis:
"The establishment of the historical Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis and bound by a treaty with the German Reich would be in the interests of strengthening the future German position of power in the Near East ... The NMO in Palestine offers to take an active part in the war on Germany's side ... The cooperation of the Israeli freedom movement would also be in line with one of the recent speeches of the German Reich Chancellor, in which Herr Hitler stressed that any combination and any alliance would be entered into in order to isolate England and defeat it."

Ih wow, what strange bedfellows!
There is a huge amount of literature describing how the Zionists made it very difficult to save Jews during and after World War II. As various individuals and organizations were trying to arrange departures of Jews to western countries, the Zionists worked overtime to prevent this from happening. They expressed the opinion that building up the Jewish population of Palestine was more important than enabling Jews to go to third countries, and they insisted to western powers that Jews should not be accepted anywhere other than Palestine. Indeed, Yitzchak Greenbaum, a famous Zionist, proclaimed that “one cow in Palestine was worth more than all the Jews in Poland.” The infamous David Ben-Gurion said in 1938:
"If I knew it was possible to save all the children in Germany by taking them to England, and only half of the children by taking them to Eretz Israel, I would choose the second solution. For we must take into account not only the lives of these children but also the history of the people of Israel."

Oh, what a touching quote. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. How cute.

After the war, a Zionist “religious” leader, Rabbi Klaussner, who was in charge of displaced persons presented a report before the Jewish American Conference on May 2nd, 1948 :
"I am convinced people must be forced to go to Palestine...For them, an American dollar appears as the highest of goals. By the word "force", I am suggesting a programme. It served for the evacuation of the Jews in Poland, and in the history of the 'Exodus'... To apply this programme we must, instead of providing 'displaced persons' with comfort, create the greatest possible discomfort for them...At a second stage, a procedure calling upon the Haganah to harass the Jews."


Wow, with friends like the Zionists, what Jew needs enemies?

Anyway, I'm not sure. These Zionists really do seem like cubbly little friends to have. But I don't know; Jews might be offended: I wonder why, after all the love the Zionists have shown towards them?

Anyway, your thoughts? Should I adopte the Zionist creed or not?

Any advice would be much appreciated:smile:

 

gopher

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Jun 26, 2005
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Albert Einstein equated Zionism with Fascism:


Letters to The Times New York Times December 4, 1948
New Palestine Party Visit of Menachem Begin and Aims of Political Movement Discussed
TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES:
Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party” (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.
The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.
Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin’s behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.
The public avowals of Begin’s party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.
Attack on Arab Village
A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants—240men, women, and children—and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.
The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.
Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.
During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.
The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built nosettlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.
Discrepancies Seen
The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear theimprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and Britishalike), and misrepresentation are means, and a “Leader State” is the goal.
In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. Itis all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin’s efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.
The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.
ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ, HANNAH ARENDT, ABRAHAM BRICK, RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO, ALBERT EINSTEIN, HERMAN EISEN, M.D., HAYIM FINEMAN, M. GALLEN,M.D., H.H. HARRIS, ZELIG S. HARRIS, SIDNEY HOOK, FRED KARUSH, BRURIA KAUFMAN, IRMA L. LINDHEIM, NACHMAN MAISEL, SEYMOUR MELMAN, MYER D. MENDELSON, M.D., HARRY M. OSLINSKY, SAMUEL PITLICK, FRITZ ROHRLICH, LOUIS P. ROCKER, RUTH SAGIS, ITZHAK SANKOWSKY, I.J. SHOENBERG, SAMUELSHUMAN, M. SINGER, IRMA WOLFE, STEFAN WOLFE.
http://phys4.harvard.edu/~wilson/NYTimes1948.html
 

Colpy

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Interesting posts, guys, I must say.

But, somewhat irrelevant, as the existence of the state of Israel in the ME Israel is fact................
 

Just the Facts

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Anyway, your thoughts? Should I adopte the Zionist creed or not?
Any advice would be much appreciated:smile:​



I think it's a great idea!! You can move to Sderot, I hear there are some vacant lots you can build on there. You could get a job selling used Qassam parts!! :p
 

MikeyDB

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Jun 9, 2006
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Interesting posts, guys, I must say.

But, somewhat irrelevant, as the existence of the state of Israel in the ME Israel is fact................

Hey Colpy :)

I'm not being a smart-ass here Colpy but "irrelevance" is a tough argument to swallow coming from a man who's referred to himself as a recreational anthropologist....(If I've got the term right..)

When we look at ancient civilizations, Mayan, Cambodian, Roman for that matter....arent all the contributing elements to some particular cultural expression of value in attempting to determine the character and make-up of who those people were? While the average farmer or hunter in the Mayan culture did perhaps participate in sacrificial rituals, who's idea was it that one way of placating the gods would be human sacrifice? Is there any indication throughout not only Mayan but any other ancient culture that not everyone voluntarily agreed with the religious rituals and the "course" of that particular society?

In any culture, who survives the longest?

Is it the lowly slave or farmer or is it the elite? Do the masses of a culture determine the pathway of the society and culture or it it the 'learned", or perhaps the "clergy"....

In sheer numbers, it's likely that the greater body of any culture outlives the 'cream of the crop' but when we re-visit those cultures does our interest focus on the poor or the itinerant worker?

Isn't it more realistic to conclude that the motivation of a small body of believers or people in positions to influence the larger population's movements and attitudes played a significant role?

When we (rightly or wrongly) attempt a comparison between the Roman empire and the American empire, do we review the fashion tastes of the greater population or do we take their systems of law and "philosophy" as the benchmark?

Not all Romans nor all Americans or any other society/culture necessarily reflect the variance in attitudes and opinions of the majority. But would it be fair to suggest that the policies of the governing body, the doctrine of the religious orders the thinking of the most "educated" influence our view of who these cultures and societies...were..?

To a lesser degree, racism in America didn't vanish at the end of the Civil warm and the abuse of Canadian natives by not only Anglican and Roman Catholic churches continues today....

I don't think we gain an overarching appreciation for the mental mind-set of any culture or society if we choose to ignore the underpinnings of that society and that culture....
 

Just the Facts

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I don't think we gain an overarching appreciation for the mental mind-set of any culture or society if we choose to ignore the underpinnings of that society and that culture....

Excellent post, I agree wholeheartedly.

Here is an excellent site for the OP to learn some of the cultural history that inspires the zionists. Check out the timeline, then go through the virtual tour, it's very interesting. Makes me want to take a trip out there (if only I could afford it :-( )

It's also a great answer to those who ask why a Jewish homeland wasn't created in Kenya or Texas.

http://english.thekotel.org/timeline.asp?PageId=155
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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Nevermind them! You Zionists have work to do!


Hey, I'm not a Zionist yet.

I'm not sure. Ya know, it could be fun to go to Israel and move into some Arab's home at Israeli government expence and then get into a gun fight when he tries to reclaim his land. What does he think he have, human rights or something:lol:
 
May 28, 2007
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Honour our Fallen
Hey, I'm not a Zionist yet.

I'm not sure. Ya know, it could be fun to go to Israel and move into some Arab's home at Israeli government expence and then get into a gun fight when he tries to reclaim his land. What does he think he have, human rights or something:lol:
You see this is why i asked about where you got your facts from....It's obvious you had something you actually really want to get off your chest.
Maybe you are suffering from some sort of inferiority complex whilst living in a state ruled by communist butchers. You people just poisoned our pet food supply for the last 15 years.....It's now in our food chain...Our government is too weak to do anything about it...If i shout at them for it i don't go missing.....


As a side note....Reading zionism one really has to read it as a jew to fully comprehand what is trying to be imparted.....
 

Colpy

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Hey Colpy :)

I'm not being a smart-ass here Colpy but "irrelevance" is a tough argument to swallow coming from a man who's referred to himself as a recreational anthropologist....(If I've got the term right..)

When we look at ancient civilizations, Mayan, Cambodian, Roman for that matter....arent all the contributing elements to some particular cultural expression of value in attempting to determine the character and make-up of who those people were? While the average farmer or hunter in the Mayan culture did perhaps participate in sacrificial rituals, who's idea was it that one way of placating the gods would be human sacrifice? Is there any indication throughout not only Mayan but any other ancient culture that not everyone voluntarily agreed with the religious rituals and the "course" of that particular society?

In any culture, who survives the longest?

Is it the lowly slave or farmer or is it the elite? Do the masses of a culture determine the pathway of the society and culture or it it the 'learned", or perhaps the "clergy"....

In sheer numbers, it's likely that the greater body of any culture outlives the 'cream of the crop' but when we re-visit those cultures does our interest focus on the poor or the itinerant worker?

Isn't it more realistic to conclude that the motivation of a small body of believers or people in positions to influence the larger population's movements and attitudes played a significant role?

When we (rightly or wrongly) attempt a comparison between the Roman empire and the American empire, do we review the fashion tastes of the greater population or do we take their systems of law and "philosophy" as the benchmark?

Not all Romans nor all Americans or any other society/culture necessarily reflect the variance in attitudes and opinions of the majority. But would it be fair to suggest that the policies of the governing body, the doctrine of the religious orders the thinking of the most "educated" influence our view of who these cultures and societies...were..?

To a lesser degree, racism in America didn't vanish at the end of the Civil warm and the abuse of Canadian natives by not only Anglican and Roman Catholic churches continues today....

I don't think we gain an overarching appreciation for the mental mind-set of any culture or society if we choose to ignore the underpinnings of that society and that culture....



Hey Mike!

Gotta say, as amusing a term as it is, I don't think (full stop) NO No. I don't believe I ever refered to myself as a "recreational anthropologist". When it comes to Israel, you might call me a "unredeemable apologist":razz:, and I have called myself an "amateur historian".....but I digress

Sorry....I'm feeling a little off the wall today.

I would say that in most of the cultures you mention the culture itself, or the society, or the rules and norms thereof are created and preserved by an elite.....nature of the beast. But those same norms have to be tolerated by the majority, or the society can not function. My position is that citizens are responsible for their society, as it is their responsibility NOT to tolerate what is intolerable........

If you catch my drift.

Obviously, citizens are even more responsible for their elites in a democracy......
 

Just the Facts

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Hey, I'm not a Zionist yet.

I'm not sure. Ya know, it could be fun to go to Israel and move into some Arab's home at Israeli government expence and then get into a gun fight when he tries to reclaim his land. What does he think he have, human rights or something:lol:

That ****e doesn't work on me. As I've pointed out in past threads, by Palestinian definition, I AM A REFUGEE, but my parents realized it would be in everyone's best interest to let me grow up saying I AM CANADIAN, rather than spend generations blowing ourselves up to get our land back.

Tell you what, when I get my grandfather's acres that he and his family where led away from at gunpoint without compensation, herded into cattle cars and shipped to "relocation camps" in Siberia, then you can talk to me about Arabs' sad stories.

There were tens of millions of displaced refugees in the 1940's. Only the Palestinians still define themselves as refugees generations later. Why is that? Hint - it's not because they were more attached to their land than anyone else was.

I live on land that is rightfully Six Nations Land - by treaty, not just history. No suicide bombers in my neighborhood, though. Funny thing. They should be right pissed about us being here!

Hmmm.
 

MikeyDB

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Jun 9, 2006
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Colpy

Colpy:“I would say that in most of the cultures you mention the culture itself, or the society, or the rules and norms thereof are created and preserved by an elite.....nature of the beast. But those same norms have to be tolerated by the majority, or the society can not function. My position is that citizens are responsible for their society, as it is their responsibility NOT to tolerate what is intolerable........”

Didn’t the Roman people tolerate slavery?

I don’t think (stand to be corrected..) that Rome was a democracy, wasn’t it a Republic….an Empire?

An empire led by the wealthy and enforced through brutality?

As the victor writes history….we will of course hear only that history…and that history will include of course the great achievements but may be a little shy on painting a balanced picture…

If we examine the Druids and trace the history of Rome through the tendrils of the societies and cultures that it touched…roads aquaducts….monetary system..etc….would it be fair to conclude that our perspective or ‘opinion” of the ancient Celts (just to stay with the example) doesn’t give us a reliable understanding of the zeitgeist of those conquered or otherwise grossly influenced by the Roman Empire?

Sorry if my anthropology remark was offensive…didn’t mean to be….

My point is that even when we have anthopology and paleontology to fill in the blanks on ancient civilizations it takes a good deal of objective analysis to generate even a rudimentary understanding of the people we’re “examining”….

Is it reasonable to suggest that a nomadic or semi-nomadic people who embraced “tribal” structure as their social organizing principles was even more vulnerable to influence over the centuries? Isn’t there some similarity between the tribal influences on the Jewish culture and social structure as there is on the Moslem culture and social structure?

I certainly don’t mean to be offensive but the “statement” that the Jewish people are the “chosen people”…demands a good hard look….

If our support for the Jewish people rests on the conviction that we embrace the doctrine of the Torah and the Talmud… is there justification for outright rejection of the Moslem culture and traditions?

Doesn’t it boil down to simply this kind of decision?
 

MikeyDB

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Just the facts

Would you say there are more monuments and memorials to the Palestinians world wide than there are momuments and memorials to the Jews?