What if Israelis, rather than Palestinians, had abducted BBC man?

Blackleaf

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Oct 9, 2004
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The Leftist BBC, which often sides with the Palestinians against the Israelis, must have embarrassed itself when it was a group of Palestinians, not Israelis, who abducted one of their men.

But what if it was the Israelis who had abducted the BBC man? Would the BBC have been more vocal in its condemnation than it currently is?



What if Israelis had abducted BBC man?


By Charles Moore
02/06/2007
The Telegraph

Watching the horrible video of Alan Johnston of the BBC broadcasting Palestinian propaganda under orders from his kidnappers, I found myself asking what it would have been like had he been kidnapped by Israelis, and made to do the same thing the other way round.

The first point is that it would never happen. There are no Israeli organisations - governmental or freelance - that would contemplate such a thing. That fact is itself significant.

But just suppose that some fanatical Jews had grabbed Mr Johnston and forced him to spout their message, abusing his own country as he did so. What would the world have said?

There would have been none of the caution which has characterised the response of the BBC and of the Government since Mr Johnston was abducted on March 12.

The Israeli government would immediately have been condemned for its readiness to harbour terrorists or its failure to track them down.

Loud would have been the denunciations of the extremist doctrines of Zionism which had given rise to this vile act. The world isolation of Israel, if it failed to get Mr Johnston freed, would have been complete.

If Mr Johnston had been forced to broadcast saying, for example, that Israel was entitled to all the territories held since the Six-Day War, and calling on the release of all Israeli soldiers held by Arab powers in return for his own release, his words would have been scorned. The cause of Israel in the world would have been irreparably damaged by thus torturing him on television. No one would have been shy of saying so.

But of course in real life it is Arabs holding Mr Johnston, and so everyone treads on tip-toe. Bridget Kendall of the BBC opined that Mr Johnston had been "asked" to say what he said in his video. Asked! If it were merely an "ask", why did he not say no?

Throughout Mr Johnston's captivity, the BBC has continually emphasised that he gave "a voice" to the Palestinian people, the implication being that he supported their cause, and should therefore be let out. One cannot imagine the equivalent being said if he had been held by Israelis.

Well, he is certainly giving a voice to the Palestinian people now. And the truth is that, although it is under horrible duress, what he says is not all that different from what the BBC says every day through the mouths of reporters who are not kidnapped and threatened, but are merely collecting their wages.

The language is more lurid in the Johnston video, but the narrative is essentially the same as we have heard over the years from Orla Guerin and Jeremy Bowen and virtually the whole pack of them.

It is that everything that is wrong in the Middle East and the wider Muslim world is the result of aggression or "heavy-handedness" (have you noticed how all actions by American or Israeli troops are "heavy-handed", just as surely as all racism is "unacceptable"?) by America or Israel or Britain.

Alan Johnston, under terrorist orders, spoke of the "absolute despair" of the Palestinians and attributed it to 40 years of Israeli occupation, "supported by the West". That is how it is presented, night after night, by the BBC.

The other side is almost unexamined. There is little to explain the internecine strife in the Arab world, particularly in Gaza, or the cynical motivations of Arab leaders for whom Palestinian miseries are politically convenient.

You get precious little investigation of the networks and mentalities of Islamist extremism - the methods and money of Hamas or Hizbollah and comparable groups - which produce acts of pure evil like that in which Mr Johnston is involuntarily complicit.

The spotlight is not shone on how the "militants" (the BBC does not even permit the word "terrorist" in the Middle East context) and the warlords maintain their corruption and rule of fear, persecuting, among others, the Palestinians.

Instead it shines pitilessly on Blair and Bush and on Israel.

From the hellish to the ridiculous, the pattern is the same. Back at home, the Universities and Colleges Union has just voted for its members to "consider the moral implications of existing and proposed links with Israeli academic institutions".

Well, they could consider how work by scientists at the Technion in Haifa has led to the production of the drug Velcade, which treats multiple myeloma. Or they could look at the professor at Ben-Gurion University who discovered a bacteria that fights malaria and river blindness by killing mosquitoes and black fly.

Or they could study the co-operation between researchers at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, who have isolated the protein that triggers stress in order to try to treat post-traumatic stress disorder, and their equivalents at the Medical Research Council Laboratory of Molecular Biology in Cambridge.

The main universities of Israel are, in fact, everything that we in the West would recognise as proper universities. They have intellectual freedom. They do not require an ethnic or religious qualification for entry. They are not controlled by the government. They have world-class standards of research, often producing discoveries which benefit all humanity. In all this, they are virtually unique in the Middle East.

The silly dons are not alone. The National Union of Journalists, of which I am proud never to have been a member, has recently passed a comparable motion, brilliantly singling out the only country in the region with a free press for pariah treatment.

Unison, which is a big, serious union, is being pressed to support a boycott of Israeli goods, products of the only country in the region with a free trade union movement.

The doctrine is that Israel practises "apartheid" and that it must therefore be boycotted.

All this is moral madness. It is not mad, of course, to criticise Israeli policy. In some respects, indeed, it would be mad not to. It is not mad - though I think it is mistaken - to see the presence of Israel as the main reason for the lack of peace in the region.

But it is mad or, perhaps one should rather say, bad to try to raid Western culture's reserves of moral indignation and expend them on a country that is part of that culture in favour of surrounding countries that aren't. How can we have got ourselves into a situation in which we half-excuse turbaned torturers for kidnapping our fellow-citizens while trying to exclude Jewish biochemists from lecturing to our students?

Nobody yet knows the precise motivations of Mr Johnston's captors, but it is surely not a coincidence that they held him in silence until the 40th anniversary of the Six-Day War approached, and only then made him speak. They wanted him to give the world their historical explanation - Israeli oppression - for their cause.

Yet that war took place because President Nasser of Egypt led his country and his allies declaring "our basic aim will be to destroy Israel".

He failed, abjectly, and Egypt and Jordan later gave up the aspiration. But many others maintain it to this day, now with a pseudo-religious gloss added.

We keep giving sympathetic air-time to their death cult. In a way, Mr Johnston is paying the price: his captors are high on the oxygen of his corporation's publicity.

As for Israel, many sins can be laid to its charge. But it is morally serious in a way that we are not, because it has to be. Forty years after its greatest victory, it has to work out each morning how it can survive.


telegraph.co.uk
 
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earth_as_one

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Watching the horrible video of Alan Johnston of the BBC broadcasting Palestinian propaganda under orders from his kidnappers, I found myself asking what it would have been like had he been kidnapped by Israelis, and made to do the same thing the other way round.

The first point is that it would never happen. There are no Israeli organisations - governmental or freelance - that would contemplate such a thing...

Israel doesn't kidnap people. Israel wouldn't mistreat people in their custody...

Is this a joke? An attempt at humor? You can't be serious.

ISRAEL AND THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES


STATE OF ISRAEL
Head of state: Moshe Katzav
Head of government: Ehud Olmert (replaced Ariel Sharon in April)
Death penalty: abolitionist for ordinary crimes
International Criminal Court: signed but declared intention not to ratify

Increased violence between Israelis and Palestinians resulted in a threefold increase in killings of Palestinians by Israeli forces. The number of Israelis killed by Palestinian armed groups diminished by half. More than 650 Palestinians, including some 120 children, and 27 Israelis were killed. Israeli forces carried out air and artillery bombardments in the Gaza Strip, and Israel continued to expand illegal settlements and to build a 700-km fence/wall on Palestinian land in the Occupied Territories. Military blockades and increased restrictions imposed by Israel on the movement of Palestinians and the confiscation by Israel of Palestinian customs duties caused a significant deterioration in living conditions for Palestinian inhabitants in the Occupied Territories, with poverty, food aid dependency, health problems and unemployment reaching crisis levels. Israeli soldiers and settlers committed serious human rights abuses, including unlawful killings, against Palestinians, mostly with impunity. Thousands of Palestinians were arrested by Israeli forces throughout the Occupied Territories on suspicion of security offences and hundreds were held in administrative detention. Israeli conscientious objectors continued to be imprisoned for refusing to serve in the army. In a 34-day war against Hizbullah in Lebanon in July-August, Israeli forces committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, including war crimes. Israeli bombardments killed nearly 1,200 people, and destroyed or damaged tens of thousands of homes and other civilian infrastructure. Israeli forces also littered south Lebanon with around a million unexploded cluster bombs which continued to kill and maim civilians after the conflict....

...
Trials of Palestinians before military courts often did not meet international fair trial standards, with allegations of torture and other ill-treatment of detainees inadequately investigated. Hundreds of Palestinians were held in administrative detention without charge or trial; more than 700 were being held at the end of the year. Family visits to some 10,000 Palestinian prisoners were severely restricted as many of their relatives were denied visiting permits...

http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Re...th-Africa/Israel-and-the-Occupied-Territories

An actor demonstrates a technique called the banana


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/637293.stm

Israel 'routinely tortures prisoners' By Steve Weizman in Jerusalem

Published: 07 May 2007
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2519072.ece

B'TSELEM
May 2007, Joint report with Hamoked - Center for the Defence of the Individual, Summary
Utterly Forbidden: The Torture And Ill-Treatment Of Palestinian Detainees

In recent years, Israel has openly admitted that ISA (formerly the General Security Service) interrogators employ "exceptional" interrogation methods and "physical pressure" against Palestinian detainees in situations labeled "ticking bombs". B'Tselem and HaMoked - Center for the Defence of the Individual have examined these interrogation methods and the frequency with which they are used, as well as other harmful practices. The report's findings are based on the testimonies of 73 Palestinian residents of the West Bank who were arrested between July 2005 and January 2006 and interrogated by the ISA. Although it is not a representative sample, it does provide a valid indication of the frequency of the reported phenomena.

The Legal Framework
International law absolutely prohibits torture and ill-treatment. States may not derogate from this prohibition even in the harsh circumstances of fighting terrorism. The responsibility, in case of violation, rests not just with the state, but also with the individual abusers who may face prosecution in other countries.
In its ruling from September 1999, the HCJ determined that the ISA did not have legal authority to use "physical means" against interrogees. Pressure and a measure of discomfort are legitimate, according to this judgment, only as a side-effect of the necessities of the interrogation and not as a means for breaking the interrogees' spirit. However, it was established that ISA agents who abused interrogees in "ticking bomb" situations may avoid prosecution. This ruling implicitly legitimized these severe acts, contrary to international law, which does not acknowledge any exceptions to the prohibition on torture and ill-treatment.
The "Softening Up" of Detainees Prior to Interrogation
The witnesses reported being subjected to beating, painful binding, swearing and humiliation and denial of basic needs at the hands of security forces personnel from the moment of arrest until being transferred to the ISA. About two thirds of the witnesses (49 of 73) reported that they had undergone at least one of these forms of abuse, which are defined by international law as ill-treatment and may reach the level of torture. This research did not examine the question whether this ill-treatment was intended to "soften up" the detainees for the ISA interrogations. It is, however, its practical outcome.
The ISA Interrogation System: Routine Ill-treatment
The ISA interrogation system includes seven key aspects which harm, to varying degrees, the dignity and bodily integrity of the detainees. This injury is intensified considering the combined exercise of these aspects during the interrogation period which, for the witnesses in the sample, lasted an average of 35 days:
  1. <LI class=runing-text>Isolation from the outside world - prohibition on meetings between detainees and their attorneys or ICRC representatives;

    <LI class=runing-text>The use of the conditions of imprisonment as a means of psychological pressure - holding in solitary confinement and in putrid, stifling cells;

    <LI class=runing-text>The use of conditions of imprisonment as a means for weakening the body - preventing physical activity, sleep disturbance, inadequate food supply;

    <LI class=runing-text>Shackling in the " shabah " position - painful binding of the detainee's hands and feet to a chair;

    <LI class=runing-text>Cursing and humiliation - cursing, strip searches, shouting, spitting etc.;

    <LI class=runing-text>Threats and intimidation - including the threat of physical torture, arrest of family members, etc.;
  2. The use of informants, " 'asafir " to extract information - this method is not harmful, as such, but its efficacy largely depends on the ill-treatment of detainees immediately preceding its implementation.
These methods were employed against the vast majority of witnesses included in the sample. These measures are not inevitable side-effects of the necessities of detention and interrogation, but are rather intended to break the spirit of the interrogees. As such, they deviate from the HCJ ruling and constitute, under international law, prohibited ill-treatment. Moreover, under certain circumstances, these measures may amount to torture.
"Special" Interrogation Methods
In addition to routine measures, in some cases, probably those considered "ticking bombs", ISA interrogators also use "special" methods which mostly involve direct physical violence. The sample witnesses described seven such methods:

  1. <LI class=runing-text>Sleep deprivation for over 24 hours (15 cases);
  1. <LI class=runing-text>"Dry" beatings (17 cases);
    <LI class=runing-text>Painful tightening of handcuffs, sometimes while cutting off blood flow (5 cases);
    <LI class=runing-text>Sudden pulling of the body while causing pain in the hand joints which are cuffed to the chair (6 cases);
    <LI class=runing-text>Sudden tilting of the head sideways or backwards (8 cases);
    <LI class=runing-text>The "frog" crouch (forcing the detainees to crouch on tiptoes) accompanied by shoving (3 cases);​
  2. The "banana" position - bending the back of the interrogee in an arch while he is seated on a backless chair (5 cases).












These measures are defined as torture under international law. Their use is not negligible, even if not routine. The HCJ did rule that ISA interrogators who abused interrogees in "ticking bomb" situations may be exempted from criminal liability, but this only when the ill-treatment was used as a spontaneous response by an individual interrogator to an unexpected occurrence. In practice, all evidence points to the fact that "special" methods are preauthorized and are used according a preset regulations.
Cover up and Whitewashing Mechanisms
The ill-treatment and torture of Palestinian detainees by soldiers and ISA interrogators do not take place in a void, but rather under the auspices of the Israeli law enforcement system.
Despite the fact that since 2001 the State Attorney's Office received over 500 complaints regarding ill-treatment by ISA interrogators, it has not found cause to order the instigation of a single criminal investigation. The State Attorney's decisions on this issue are based on the findings of an examination conducted by the "Inspector of Complaints by ISA Interrogees," who is an ISA agent, answerable to the head of the organization. Even when the findings have shown that ISA interrogators did indeed abuse an interrogee, the State Attorney's Office has closed the file based on a biased interpretation of the ruling regarding the applicability of the "necessity defense" in the HCJ 1999 judgment.
Most cases of ill-treatment of Palestinians by soldiers are not investigated at all, and few of those that do, culminate in an indictment. In many cases, this is due to various institutional failings such as delays in instigation investigations. Additionally, it may be assumed that without concerted and proactive efforts on the part of the authorities, the chances of detainees submitting complaints regarding injuries they have suffered during their arrest are quite low.
The ISA interrogation system is significantly aided by the HCJ, which serves as a rubber stamp on orders which regulate the isolation of the interogees from the outside world. The HCJ did not accept even one of the hundreds of petitions brought before it against such orders. The HCJ also routinely allows the ISA to conceal from the detainees the very fact that an order against them has been issued as well as the legal proceedings taking place in their case. All this with the purpose of increasing the psychological pressure employed against them.
Recommendations
  1. To instruct the ISA to halt immediately and completely the use of all interrogation methods that injure the dignity or physical integrity of interrogees;
  2. To initiate legislation strictly prohibiting torture and ill-treatment and preventing the possibility of the "necessity defense" being enjoyed by public employees suspected of such actions;
  3. To determine that any complaint filed against ISA interrogators on account of ill-treatment during interrogations will be investigated by an independent body, and prosecute those responsible where the complaint has been sustained;
  4. To document ISA interrogations by means of video filming and to open ISA interrogation facilities to objective external review, including review by the UN Special Rapporteur on torture;
  5. To ensure, in legislation and in practice, that every detainee receives minimum humane conditions of incarceration, and to abolish the provisions discriminating against "security" detainees in terms of such conditions;
  6. To abolish the military order permitting the ISA to prevent meetings between detainees and their attorneys, and to apply the same standards to Palestinian detainees as are established in the Israeli Detentions Law;
  7. To bring security forces personnel who abused Palestinian detainees to justice.
These measures are defined as torture under international law. Their use is not negligible, even if not routine. The HCJ did rule that ISA interrogators who abused interrogees in "ticking bomb" situations may be exempted from criminal liability, but this only when the ill-treatment was used as a spontaneous response by an individual interrogator to an unexpected occurrence. In practice, all evidence points to the fact that "special" methods are preauthorized and are used according a preset regulations.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/200705_Utterly_Forbidden.asp

“Palestinian Political Prisoners in Israel”
Palestine Center Information Brief No. 136 (18 April 2006)
By Samar Assad

Overview: On 17 April 2006, Palestinians in the Occupied Territory marked Palestinian Prisoners Day with rallies and protests in solidarity with the thousands of Palestinians held in Israeli prisons, an annual commemoration that began 1974. According to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, there are 9,400 Palestinians currently held in Israeli prisons. The number includes 369 Palestinians who were jailed before the 1993 Oslo Peace Accords, which was meant to start a new chapter in Palestinian-Israeli relations...

...Deaths in Detention

Since September 2000, 60 prisoners have died while in Israeli custody. According to the Bureau of Statistics, 48 of the 60 were killed immediately after their arrest. The Bureau found that since Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip in 1967, 183 prisoners have been killed while in Israeli custody due to torture, assassination or lack of medical attention.

In its 2004 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices, the U.S. Department of State reported that "some" members of Israel's security forces abuse Palestinian detainees. However, according to the Israeli Human Rights group B'Tselem, in Israel, "for years, torture was commonly used by Israel's General Security Service [GSS] interrogators. Since 1987, the GSS interrogated at least 850 Palestinians a year by means of torture. The methods included violent shaking, binding the detainees in painful positions, and covering their head with a foul-smelling sack. All governmental authorities—from the Israeli army to the Supreme Court—took part in approving torture, in developing new methods, and in supervising them."...

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/images/informationbrief.php?ID=160


Torture up to and including execution. No trials for any of these men, women and children.

1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.


“Since the beginning of the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories in 1967, over 650,000 Palestinians have been detained by Israel. This forms approximately 20% of the total Palestinian population in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT).”​

Source: The Mandela Institute for Human Rights – Palestine (last updated March 31, 2007) and Reuters.
Breakdown of Palestinian Prisoners

Palestinian Prisoners
Juveniles Imprisoned
398
[SIZE=-2]DCI[/SIZE]


http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
 
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Zzarchov

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1.) All countries have some quite brutal softening up techniques. Canada is no different in how we treat our suspects (officially or not)

2.) All that graph shows is that Palestinians execute prisoners. Another sign Israel is the good guy.
 

earth_as_one

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So you argue that summary executions without trials after lengthy incarcerations including torture proves Israel is the good guy...

Sorry I can't agree with your point.
 

earth_as_one

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The point of this string is to consider this man's fate if Israel abducted him. I would say he would have been subjected to sleep deprivation while restrained in various painful positions and repeatedly beaten until death.
 

lenny henry

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May 25, 2007
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no he wouldn't have been captured he would have just been shot and the assailant would have been let off by the israeli army. all people know what the israeli soldiers are like
 

Zzarchov

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So you argue that summary executions without trials after lengthy incarcerations including torture proves Israel is the good guy...

Sorry I can't agree with your point.


No, I said police brutality does not an evil empire make. What you are doing is ignoring anything I say (so why do I bother) and making ludicris statements. Example; What me do the same thing to your post:


So your saying that because Palestinians abduct anyone "infidel" or "foreigner" they can get their hands on and summarily torture and execute the person they are the good guy?

Sorry I can't agree with your point.


See the problem, I take a valid point (As your chart shows, Palestinians don't keep Prisoners even though if they wanted to be treated as anything but terrorists they need to take Prisoners of War, not just kill those who surrender).

Then act like you said it to make some outrageous claim you never did.
 

Just the Facts

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Oct 15, 2004
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Israel doesn't kidnap people. Israel wouldn't mistreat people in their custody...

Is this a joke? An attempt at humor? You can't be serious.

The fact that you try to equate the arrest of suspected terrorists (you can even call them combatants or freedom fighters if you want) with the kidnapping of a foreign journalist, especially one whose editorial slant is reportedly sympathetic to your cause, is exemplary of the mendacity of your arguments.
 

earth_as_one

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Sorry I misunderstood your point.

1.) All countries have some quite brutal softening up techniques. Canada is no different in how we treat our suspects (officially or not)

2.) All that graph shows is that Palestinians execute prisoners. Another sign Israel is the good guy.

I would hope that Canada's military respects Canadian law as well international treaties and conventions governing the conduct of war. If not, then those found guilty should be held accountable for their crimes.

This conflict has been going on for 60 years now. Israel's adversaries don't have the same facilities for holding their prisoners as Israel. But I disagree with you if you are saying that Israel's adversaries routinely kill their prisoners. A captured IDF soldier has far more value alive than dead.

From what I can determine, being a captive of either side doesn't sound too appealing. But the numbers indicate that Israel tortures and kills more of their prisoners than the other way around.

From above:
...Deaths in Detention

Since September 2000 (relative to 18 April 2006), 60 prisoners have died while in Israeli custody. According to the Bureau of Statistics, 48 of the 60 were killed immediately after their arrest. The Bureau found that since Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip in 1967, 183 prisoners have been killed while in Israeli custody due to torture, assassination or lack of medical attention.



How many abducted IDF soldiers have been killed by their captors?
 
May 28, 2007
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Honour our Fallen
wow!!!!ya just don't see this stuff with floyd camembare..ok ..i jest.
But you don't get this so in yer face nightmare on telly ..do you?
And i'm refering to the posts that followed the header.
 
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earth_as_one

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The fact that you try to equate the arrest of suspected terrorists (you can even call them combatants or freedom fighters if you want) with the kidnapping of a foreign journalist, especially one whose editorial slant is reportedly sympathetic to your cause, is exemplary of the mendacity of your arguments.

Its a fact Israel does torture and summarily execute their prisoners. People of interest held by Israel are not necessarily better off than people of interest held by Israel's adversaries. I can point to many examples where Israel's adversaries have released their captives unharmed. I can point to many examples where Israel has tortured people to death.

This string is about treatment of prisoners, not about guilt or innocence. But I will go off topic to address that. You appear to assume everyone Israel detains is guilty and everyone Israel's adversaries detains is innocent.

Its possible this journalist was just an innocent observer, but its also possible this reporter was writing sympathetic articles as cover for his covert pro-Israel activities.

If everyone who has been tortured and executed by Israel is guilty and deserves their treatment as you appear to assume, then how was that determined? Israel currently holds over 10,000 Palestinians captive. Nearly 20% of Palestinians have been in Israeli custody at one time or another. How many of these people had fair trials? How many of the people Israel tortured and executed were found guilty by a fair and impartial process?

Likely Israel has tortured and executed many innocent people.
 
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earth_as_one

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Jan 5, 2006
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wow!!!!ya just don't see this stuff with floyd camembare..ok ..i jest.
But you don't get this so in yer face nightmare on telly ..do you?
And i'm refering to the posts that followed the header.

Thanks I'll take that as a compliment. Your observation is also a sad commentary on the news and media whose purpose has devolved to the point of helping powerful people herd the sheeple and selling consumer goods and services.

That's why Time magazine did this:

Time's Person of the Year: You
Wednesday, Dec. 13, 2006 By LEV GROSSMAN

The "Great Man" theory of history is usually attributed to the Scottish philosopher Thomas Carlyle, who wrote that "the history of the world is but the biography of great men." He believed that it is the few, the powerful and the famous who shape our collective destiny as a species. That theory took a serious beating this year.


To be sure, there are individuals we could blame for the many painful and disturbing things that happened in 2006. The conflict in Iraq only got bloodier and more entrenched. A vicious skirmish erupted between Israel and Lebanon. A war dragged on in Sudan. A tin-pot dictator in North Korea got the Bomb, and the President of Iran wants to go nuclear too. Meanwhile nobody fixed global warming, and Sony didn't make enough PlayStation3s.

But look at 2006 through a different lens and you'll see another story, one that isn't about conflict or great men. It's a story about community and collaboration on a scale never seen before. It's about the cosmic compendium of knowledge Wikipedia and the million-channel people's network YouTube and the online metropolis MySpace. It's about the many wresting power from the few and helping one another for nothing and how that will not only change the world, but also change the way the world changes.

The tool that makes this possible is the World Wide Web. Not the Web that Tim Berners-Lee hacked together (15 years ago, according to Wikipedia) as a way for scientists to share research. It's not even the overhyped dotcom Web of the late 1990s. The new Web is a very different thing. It's a tool for bringing together the small contributions of millions of people and making them matter. Silicon Valley consultants call it Web 2.0, as if it were a new version of some old software. But it's really a revolution.

And we are so ready for it. We're ready to balance our diet of predigested news with raw feeds from Baghdad and Boston and Beijing. You can learn more about how Americans live just by looking at the backgrounds of YouTube videos—those rumpled bedrooms and toy-strewn basement rec rooms—than you could from 1,000 hours of network television.

And we didn't just watch, we also worked. Like crazy. We made Facebook profiles and Second Life avatars and reviewed books at Amazon and recorded podcasts. We blogged about our candidates losing and wrote songs about getting dumped. We camcordered bombing runs and built open-source software.

America loves its solitary geniuses—its Einsteins, its Edisons, its Jobses—but those lonely dreamers may have to learn to play with others. Car companies are running open design contests. Reuters is carrying blog postings alongside its regular news feed. Microsoft is working overtime to fend off user-created Linux. We're looking at an explosion of productivity and innovation, and it's just getting started, as millions of minds that would otherwise have drowned in obscurity get backhauled into the global intellectual economy.

Who are these people? Seriously, who actually sits down after a long day at work and says, I'm not going to watch Lost tonight. I'm going to turn on my computer and make a movie starring my pet iguana? I'm going to mash up 50 Cent's vocals with Queen's instrumentals? I'm going to blog about my state of mind or the state of the nation or the steak-frites at the new bistro down the street? Who has that time and that energy and that passion?

The answer is, you do. And for seizing the reins of the global media, for founding and framing the new digital democracy, for working for nothing and beating the pros at their own game, TIME's Person of the Year for 2006 is you.
Sure, it's a mistake to romanticize all this any more than is strictly necessary. Web 2.0 harnesses the stupidity of crowds as well as its wisdom. Some of the comments on YouTube make you weep for the future of humanity just for the spelling alone, never mind the obscenity and the naked hatred.
But that's what makes all this interesting. Web 2.0 is a massive social experiment, and like any experiment worth trying, it could fail. There's no road map for how an organism that's not a bacterium lives and works together on this planet in numbers in excess of 6 billion. But 2006 gave us some ideas. This is an opportunity to build a new kind of international understanding, not politician to politician, great man to great man, but citizen to citizen, person to person. It's a chance for people to look at a computer screen and really, genuinely wonder who's out there looking back at them. Go on. Tell us you're not just a little bit curious.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
 

Just the Facts

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Oct 15, 2004
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This string is about treatment of prisoners, not about guilt or innocence. But I will go off topic to address that.

No, it's not, you've already gone off topic. It's about kidnapping a neutral third party and forcing him to spew your propoganda under threat of death. That's very different than discussing treatment of prisoners.
 

Zzarchov

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The problem Earth is one, is that you assume this is a war and thus military. It is civil and thus police.

Military would imply these are real soldiers, at best they are non-uniformed partisans (which you don't have to capture, you can shoot if caught)
 

earth_as_one

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No, it's not, you've already gone off topic. It's about kidnapping a neutral third party and forcing him to spew your propoganda under threat of death. That's very different than discussing treatment of prisoners.

The topic is, "What if Israelis, rather than Palestinians, had abducted BBC man?".

How can that question be answered without examining Israel's treatement of people they have abducted?


For example, why do you think Israel would not treat someone it abducted as it treated these American citizens?

DECEMBER 2000, Pages 96-99

Human Rights

Partners for Peace Says Israel Detained and Tortured Four American Victims

They looked like four ordinary American men wearing business attire, but in the National Press Club, in Washington, DC, on Sept. 11, each testified to torture and false imprisonment in Israel. All four were Arab-American.

Jerri Bird, president of Partners for Peace, opened the press conference with a declaration: “We are here today to make public our protest of the silence of the U.S. government in the cases of American citizens who, over a period of at least 21 years, have been tortured in Israel. Specifically, we protest the fact that the U.S. government has not effectively and publicly protested the detention, interrogation and torture of Americans.

“Can torture ever be justified?” Bird asked. “Is the Israeli ‘necessary defense’ justified? The Supreme Court of Israel in September 1999 concluded that it is not. Yet the United States still tolerates these actions by our ally, Israel, even when American citizens are tortured. Israel holds 1,500 political prisoners seven years after the Oslo peace agreement was signed on the White House lawn, 10 of whom are American.”

Bird emphasized that the U.S. consular officers in Israel have detailed procedures outlined in the Foreign Affairs Manual that describe the actions to be taken in the event an American is detained in a foreign country. “These guidelines are largely ignored, however, if the victim is an Arab American in Israel.” This statement was proven at the press conference when the four men stepped to the microphone to tell their stories.

First to speak was Mike Mansour. In 1984, he went to the West Bank to visit his elderly mother. Suddenly he was picked up by the Israeli Shin Bet forces, held without charge, interrogated and tortured for more than 21 days. It was not until he had a heart attack—his captors waited four hours to bring help—that he was released. At the time of his detention he was deputy sheriff of Albuquerque, New Mexico, and when he returned to the United States he felt fortunate that he could take his complaint to friends in the State Department. He gave credit to Richard Murphy, then deputy assistant secretary of state for Near East affairs, and to some senators for making an effort to help, but in the end he was told that nothing could be done.

Mansour feels let down by his government’s complicity. “Mr. President, State Department, where is the issue of human rights?” he asked. “When we talk about China, when we talk about Egypt, when we talk about Syria, when we talk about Libya, when we talk about any part of the world, we always bring up human rights. Why is it that Israel is the exception to the rule?”

Anwar Mohamad, whose detention was the focus of a CNN/TIME feature aired Sept. 10, was visiting an aunt and some cousins on the West Bank when he was “kidnapped” and accused of being a terrorist. His captors attempted to force him to sign papers written in Hebrew, which Mohamad could not read. When he asked what the documents meant, they told him it was a confession; he found out later that had he signed them, he would have been sentenced automatically to three years in prison. Mohamad noted that there are Americans still in Israeli jails today who were forced to sign such false confessions.

Mohamad described looking down on his handcuffs and reading the words, “Made in USA.” He said, “There are no words to describe the feeling I had at that moment.” He suffered 40 days of “hell,” he said. “I was between life and death, I endured all kinds of impossible torture.” He was finally released with no apology, no explanation, and no charges, but with the warning, “Don’t cause us any trouble.”

Mohamad has yet to be acknowledged by the United States as a victim of wrongful imprisonment. “Since I got back three years ago, I have been trying, with the help of Partners for Peace, to find answers out of this nightmare. I understand that, as an American citizen, whenever we travel abroad we are subject to the laws of the country we are visiting. But what’s happening when you are wrongfully detained, you are innocent, there are no charges made against you, no evidence of any crime? In this situation can the U.S. government do something about it?” He concluded that perhaps there are second-class citizens in America: Arab-Americans.

Besides monetary reparations for the physical and emotional damage incurred during his ordeal, Mohamad, like the others, protested the indifference of the American consulate in Jerusalem to his condition. “They did nothing to prevent it, and ignored the physical evidence of my mistreatment,” he said. “They did not attend the Israeli court.”

Yousuf Marei came to the United States in 1978 and obtained his American citizenship. In 1999 he and his wife took a trip to Mecca, in Saudi Arabia, and planned a stopover in the West Bank for a few days to visit his aged parents. Mr. Marei was detained and tortured for five weeks; like the others, he was finally released with no charges filed against him and no explanation or apology. “I came here to tell the American people…why when it comes to me as an Arab-American is the law blind? Where is justice in our American law?” He held up his U.S. passport, reading the statement of protection it describes for citizens traveling abroad.

He still is asking why the Israelis suspected him. “Because I am serving my community in Chicago-land?” he speculated. “I do, I graduated from the American Islamic College. I work with the Muslim community and the Arab community and the American community in Chicago. I teach children. I wash the deceased, I officiate marriages, and I work as a manager for the Islamic community in Chicago. I’ve been in America more than 22 years!”

Marei reminded the audience that every human law, “the laws of Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and the United Nations,” uphold human rights and justice.

Bashir Saidi, an engineer from Detroit, Michigan, was visiting his Israeli wife’s parents in Galilee for Christmas vacation in 1997. During Christmas dinner, 20 Israeli security service men stormed the house. He spent the next 18 months in Israeli custody. He was severely tortured, denied medical attention, and was not allowed to have a Bible. He was never provided due process of law. “My wife was pregnant at the time. They threatened to abort her baby if I didn’t confess to whatever they were asking me,” he said He describes the “mockery trial” that resulted in his prison sentence, and the tortures that followed.

In September 1999, the Israeli Supreme Court banned torture in prisons. But the U.S. Department of State’s Country Reports on Human Rights Practices acknowledges that interrogation facilities continue to practice torture.

When the four speakers opened the floor to questions, someone asked why no attention is being paid in Washington, DC to this issue. Jerri Bird explained that the president has to make it a news item before any attention will be paid. For example, she explained, when American relatives of 10 Iranian Jews being held captive made an appointment with the president to hear the case, that was news.

Partners for Peace, and the victims themselves, have written many letters protesting the U.S. government’s silence. The official responses “say all the right things,” but imply a low-level approach, Bird said. She cited the example of a government requesting a “letter of inquiry,” which is not public, so does not make news, and may not receive a response for months. The response usually is “incomplete,” and more information is requested, but no action is demanded.

A Jewish American told Bird that when he was detained for demonstrating against a home demolition, the American consul obtained his release within three hours. The consul told him, “If you are Jewish American I can get you out in a few hours, if you are a ‘regular’ American it might take a day or two, and if you are an Arab American, forget it.”

Partners for Peace said the following four actions should be taken:

1. “President Clinton should publicly protest Israeli torture of American citizens.

2. “The ‘warning’ buried in the Consular Information Sheet issued by the Department of State is both inaccurate and inadequate. A Travel Warning should be issued, warning Americans against travel to Israel. If it is unsafe for Arab Americans it should be barred to all. Americans are Americans.

3. “Consular officials should be required to follow the Foreign Affairs Manual to the letter in ALL cases of Americans detained in Israel.

4. “Congress should implement a ban on aid to Israel, since legislation requires that no aid can go to a country that violates human rights of its own citizens or others.

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1200/0012096.html
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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The problem Earth is one, is that you assume this is a war and thus military. It is civil and thus police.

Military would imply these are real soldiers, at best they are non-uniformed partisans (which you don't have to capture, you can shoot if caught)

I bet Israel would prefer their adversaries identify themselves. They'd probably like to know their home address and the names of all their relatives. Israel would probably like their adversaries to march in tight formations.

These people are insurgents. They represent no country. They volunteer to fight to liberate millions of people Israel has ethnically cleansed over the years. These people know in advance what will happen to them if they are captured by Israel and they volunteered anyway. I have no problems referring to these people as soldiers.

A soldier captured while not wearing a uniform only means they are not protected by conventions of war. But they still have internationally recognized human rights. Last time I checked, torture and summary execution were prohibited by international law. I doubt wearing a uniform would protect these soldiers from torture and summary execution anyway.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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Earth-as-One

Are you Palestinian? I don't think it really matters whether you are or aren't, but I am interested in why you seem to feel that this topic Israel vs. Palestine....is worthy of so much time and consideration...

Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians have demostrated a preparedness to behave in any other way than terrorism...counter terorism...rocket attack....armored attack....

These nations are occupied by a sentiment to war and self-destruction. If you could provide evidence that either have contributed (as a nation) to the benefit of humankind...I'd be interested in surveying that information....

We spend enormous amounts of time listening and watching as "peace-proposals" and "cease-fires" come and go over the past fifty years....

Why?

If it were possible to completely eradicate the Israelis and the Palestinians, do you think that peace would decend in the ME?

Why is the world treated to this on-going carnage and hostility through the press and media organizations? You could say that a Jewish controlled press and media...have an agenda that includes expanding on the implied "guilt" of the rest of the world with respect to the Jewish Holocaust, or you could offer that the Palestinians are fervant believers in the genocide of anyone that doesn't worship as they do or think as they do....what is it?

What makes this festering sore on the face of this planet worth anyones consideration to any greater degree than any of a dozen or so failures of human intellect and humanity occurring anywhere else in the world?
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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No I am not Palestinian. I am Canadian. I am against injustice and oppression. I am also against media misinformation and manipulation of perceptions regarding injustice and oppression.

Other conflicts involving ethnic cleansing exist like the Darfur region of Sudan for example. But in those other conflicts, most people have a pretty good idea about who are the oppressed and who are the oppressors. Our news has done an ok job of providing accurate information.

But the Israel/Palestine conflict is an exception. Our media has misinformed us. The media purposefully manipulates our opinions to create support for the oppressors while demonizing the oppressed.

As a result, most Canadians can't see the crimes in plain sight or feel empathy for the victims of this ethnic cleansing. For the most part we ignore their suffering. When we do take notice, its usually related to vilefying these people for resorting to violence in order to fight for rights and freedoms most of us take for granted. We are citizens of a country. They aren't. We have fundamental human rights, they don't. We are free, they aren't. We have justice, they suffer injustice....

Anyone who digs a little soon realizes one obstacle blocking the Palestinian fight for freedom and justice is our ignorance. So I post information to balance misinformation. I point out injustice and oppression in the hope that more people will be able to see the crimes in plain sight.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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1.) You can execute criminals with as little trial as you see fit. Because they don't form a proper resistance they are then violent criminals. And as China and America (UN security council members) have shown, there is nothing in basic human rights about executing people who have done far less.

If palestinians want to be treated as a legitimate fighting force, follow the rules. Ya, no doubt they make you weaker, deal with it. You want the protections? You put up with the vulnerabilities. Same as every one else on the planet.



I love this quote

"“The ‘warning’ buried in the Consular Information Sheet issued by the Department of State is both inaccurate and inadequate. A Travel Warning should be issued, warning Americans against travel to Israel. If it is unsafe for Arab Americans it should be barred to all. Americans are Americans."

In that case, America having people from every nation. There are no safe nations for them to go visit. Not even America itself.