Hawkings former plumber
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April 17th, 2007, 08:47 AM
Go to Original
Ecuador Heads for Socialist Reform of Constitution
Agence France-Presse
Monday 16 April 2007
Ecuadorans overwhelmingly voted Sunday in favor of forming an assembly to rewrite the constitution, a project sought by leftist President Rafael Correa, according to initial, unofficial results.
Correa, who had staked his post on the outcome, was handed 78.1 percent of the votes, a Cedatos-Gallup exit poll showed. The private company's results were broadcast by the television network Ecuavisa.
Some 11.5 percent opposed the plan, according to the poll which was conducted among 40,000 voters and had a margin of error of at least two percentage points.
The official results were due in a week, electoral authorities said.
After weeks of political crisis in one of the most impoverished and unstable nations in South America, voters backed a move favored by Correa's ally, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.
The landslide victory had been widely expected.
Opinion polls had shown roughly 70 percent of Ecuadorans would support Correa's proposal, but critics claimed it was unconstitutional and inspired by Chavez. A national assembly of elected supporters of the firebrand leftist leader rewrote Venezuela's constitution in 1999.
Correa, who took office three months ago, has set out a sweeping reform program for his five-year mandate that would include reversing free-market measures, renegotiating foreign oil contracts and cutting ties with the International Monetary Fund.
Although a close ally with Chavez, Correa has repeatedly denied he intends to take Ecuador in his footsteps.
"It's a day of national celebration, a victory for the people, for democracy," Correa said before casting his ballot at a school in northern Quito.
Some 9.2 million people are eligible to vote in the referendum, after an intense campaign in which Correa - the country's eighth president in a politically turbulent decade - was accused of trying to concentrate powers as Chavez had.
From Caracas, Chavez expressed great confidence in that "Correa will go forward with the support of the great majority."
"We wish the best for the Ecuadoran people and President Correa, who has heeded with courage and valor the call of 21st century socialism," Chavez said in his radio and TV program, "Hello President."
Correa has signaled he would quit if voters did not approve the project, which he sees as a key component of his "citizens' revolution."
The widely popular president, who enjoys approval ratings at 70 percent, said Saturday on the eve of the vote that he would "seriously consider" stepping down if his plan is rejected.
If approved, Ecuadorans would be called to elect between October and November the 130 members of a constitutional assembly who would be tasked with writing a new constitution, whose text would be submitted to a referendum in 2008.
Correa asked the public and the military to be vigilant against polling fraud, which he said he feared could be attempted by opponents on the right.
But election observers from the Organization of American States said they had seen no indication of wrongdoing so far.
Critics claimed that, like Chavez, Correa would use the assembly to concentrate power in his own hands and that this would scare off foreign investors.
"I don't believe in imitations, that is, taking the Venezuelan model and imposing it on Ecuador," said Jaime Villaroel, 37, an economist who handed out pamphlets warning voters against giving Correa "a blank check."
"There is a risk we'll go from being dependent on the United States to being dependent on President Chavez," said Villaroel.
The country recently was thrown into political crisis with the firings of lawmakers by an electoral court.
Tension eased a little after substitutes for the ousted members were sworn in, but the opposition deputies still claimed their ouster was illegal.
Go to Original
Ecuador Heads for Socialist Reform of Constitution
Agence France-Presse
Monday 16 April 2007
Ecuadorans overwhelmingly voted Sunday in favor of forming an assembly to rewrite the constitution, a project sought by leftist President Rafael Correa, according to initial, unofficial results.
Correa, who had staked his post on the outcome, was handed 78.1 percent of the votes, a Cedatos-Gallup exit poll showed. The private company's results were broadcast by the television network Ecuavisa.
Some 11.5 percent opposed the plan, according to the poll which was conducted among 40,000 voters and had a margin of error of at least two percentage points.
The official results were due in a week, electoral authorities said.
After weeks of political crisis in one of the most impoverished and unstable nations in South America, voters backed a move favored by Correa's ally, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.
The landslide victory had been widely expected.
Opinion polls had shown roughly 70 percent of Ecuadorans would support Correa's proposal, but critics claimed it was unconstitutional and inspired by Chavez. A national assembly of elected supporters of the firebrand leftist leader rewrote Venezuela's constitution in 1999.
Correa, who took office three months ago, has set out a sweeping reform program for his five-year mandate that would include reversing free-market measures, renegotiating foreign oil contracts and cutting ties with the International Monetary Fund.
Although a close ally with Chavez, Correa has repeatedly denied he intends to take Ecuador in his footsteps.
"It's a day of national celebration, a victory for the people, for democracy," Correa said before casting his ballot at a school in northern Quito.
Some 9.2 million people are eligible to vote in the referendum, after an intense campaign in which Correa - the country's eighth president in a politically turbulent decade - was accused of trying to concentrate powers as Chavez had.
From Caracas, Chavez expressed great confidence in that "Correa will go forward with the support of the great majority."
"We wish the best for the Ecuadoran people and President Correa, who has heeded with courage and valor the call of 21st century socialism," Chavez said in his radio and TV program, "Hello President."
Correa has signaled he would quit if voters did not approve the project, which he sees as a key component of his "citizens' revolution."
The widely popular president, who enjoys approval ratings at 70 percent, said Saturday on the eve of the vote that he would "seriously consider" stepping down if his plan is rejected.
If approved, Ecuadorans would be called to elect between October and November the 130 members of a constitutional assembly who would be tasked with writing a new constitution, whose text would be submitted to a referendum in 2008.
Correa asked the public and the military to be vigilant against polling fraud, which he said he feared could be attempted by opponents on the right.
But election observers from the Organization of American States said they had seen no indication of wrongdoing so far.
Critics claimed that, like Chavez, Correa would use the assembly to concentrate power in his own hands and that this would scare off foreign investors.
"I don't believe in imitations, that is, taking the Venezuelan model and imposing it on Ecuador," said Jaime Villaroel, 37, an economist who handed out pamphlets warning voters against giving Correa "a blank check."
"There is a risk we'll go from being dependent on the United States to being dependent on President Chavez," said Villaroel.
The country recently was thrown into political crisis with the firings of lawmakers by an electoral court.
Tension eased a little after substitutes for the ousted members were sworn in, but the opposition deputies still claimed their ouster was illegal.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
April 17th, 2007, 09:15 AM
Who paid for your hosptial attention recently Colpy?
If it was you who picked up the tab do you imagine for a moment that the costs of research and medicine haven't been absorbed by the population at large through taxes?
Don't speak out of one side of your face when it's convenient to splash disdain on "socialists" then feel happy to reap the benefits of that same communal effort when it suits your needs and interests.
Who paid for your hosptial attention recently Colpy?
If it was you who picked up the tab do you imagine for a moment that the costs of research and medicine haven't been absorbed by the population at large through taxes?
Don't speak out of one side of your face when it's convenient to splash disdain on "socialists" then feel happy to reap the benefits of that same communal effort when it suits your needs and interests.
Senate Member
Posts: 5,155
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
April 17th, 2007, 09:33 AM
I have always been a supporter of Medicare............gov't supported free medical care. I couldn't care less how it is delivered.
For the most part, the care I received was excellent.
There is a difference between social legislation, social responsibility, such as universal health care and a social safety net, as well as education etc.........and the nationalization of private interests and concentration of power...............
Everything in moderation.
I have always been a supporter of Medicare............gov't supported free medical care. I couldn't care less how it is delivered.
For the most part, the care I received was excellent.
There is a difference between social legislation, social responsibility, such as universal health care and a social safety net, as well as education etc.........and the nationalization of private interests and concentration of power...............
Everything in moderation.
what green dots?
Posts: 3,157
April 17th, 2007, 09:45 AM
Colpy, IMO you're using a rather restricted definition of socialism.
From a book called "The Great Transformation: the polical and economic origin of our time", a book I highly recommend since it came out at the same time as The Road to Serfdom but is far less dated...
[Socialism is] “the tendency inherent in an industrial civilization to transcend the self-regulating market by consciously subordinating it to a democratic society.”
I'm no fan of nationalizing enterprises when such intervention will not necessarily benefit society, but I still consider myself preferring Socialism as expressed by WSI to its counterpart. and telling the IMF to piss off isn't nationalization.
Colpy, IMO you're using a rather restricted definition of socialism.
From a book called "The Great Transformation: the polical and economic origin of our time", a book I highly recommend since it came out at the same time as The Road to Serfdom but is far less dated...
[Socialism is] “the tendency inherent in an industrial civilization to transcend the self-regulating market by consciously subordinating it to a democratic society.”
I'm no fan of nationalizing enterprises when such intervention will not necessarily benefit society, but I still consider myself preferring Socialism as expressed by WSI to its counterpart. and telling the IMF to piss off isn't nationalization.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
April 17th, 2007, 09:47 AM
Chukcha
So it was the socialist responsible for launching the industrial revolution right? It's socialist that build more cars than people to be driven on highways that strangle the ability of the earth to recover? It's socialist that drop bombs on children all over the world now is it?
Check your premises I think you're ideas are sliding away.....
Chukcha
So it was the socialist responsible for launching the industrial revolution right? It's socialist that build more cars than people to be driven on highways that strangle the ability of the earth to recover? It's socialist that drop bombs on children all over the world now is it?
Check your premises I think you're ideas are sliding away.....
Member
Posts: 215
April 17th, 2007, 09:49 AM
Quoting MikeyDB
Not only socialists, offcourse, but like any other ists, ats, etc they are definitely helping people to have the aim for all of the above.
Chukcha
So it was the socialist responsible for launching the industrial revolution right? It's socialist that build more cars than people to be driven on highways that strangle the ability of the earth to recover? It's socialist that drop bombs on children all over the world now is it?
Check your premises I think you're ideas are sliding away.....
So it was the socialist responsible for launching the industrial revolution right? It's socialist that build more cars than people to be driven on highways that strangle the ability of the earth to recover? It's socialist that drop bombs on children all over the world now is it?
Check your premises I think you're ideas are sliding away.....
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 9,094
Videos: 1
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 1
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
April 17th, 2007, 10:22 AM
One for all and all for one etc etc; maybe I'm a bit to idealistic but I do believe that we must embrace socialism, we cannot address the pressing problems of mankind through the capitalist model.
I have capitalist tendencys myself but like disease they must be subject to treatment I cannot be allowed to rape and pillage my nieghbours at will.
I am happy to see you're back Colpy. Extensive brain surgery is routine these days, you're lucky you only use 5% of yours and you won't miss the other 4 grams anyway,hahaha
One for all and all for one etc etc; maybe I'm a bit to idealistic but I do believe that we must embrace socialism, we cannot address the pressing problems of mankind through the capitalist model.
I have capitalist tendencys myself but like disease they must be subject to treatment I cannot be allowed to rape and pillage my nieghbours at will.
I am happy to see you're back Colpy. Extensive brain surgery is routine these days, you're lucky you only use 5% of yours and you won't miss the other 4 grams anyway,hahaha
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Posts: 6,516
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Location: Newfoundland!
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Location: Newfoundland!
April 17th, 2007, 10:30 AM
I dont think anyone (except possibly westmanguy) could argue that capitalism is an inherently good thing. But socialism doesnt seem to be realistic. it doesn't fit in with the systems all around it. Also it's prone to corruption from within, along the lines of killing anyone who's an "enemy of the state". Although come to think of it that applies well to capitalism too.
I dont think anyone (except possibly westmanguy) could argue that capitalism is an inherently good thing. But socialism doesnt seem to be realistic. it doesn't fit in with the systems all around it. Also it's prone to corruption from within, along the lines of killing anyone who's an "enemy of the state". Although come to think of it that applies well to capitalism too.
World Police
Posts: 4,602
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Videos: 1
April 17th, 2007, 10:30 AM
Quoting darkbeaver
I would suggest seeking treatment at one of the many labour camps in North Korea, perhaps then you could import their Juche ideology to Canada.
I have capitalist tendencys myself but like disease they must be subject to treatment I cannot be allowed to rape and pillage my nieghbours at will.
Newbie
Posts: 31
April 17th, 2007, 10:45 AM
Capitalism promotes greed and power over other people, socialism as a political and economic system means a more fair distribution of wealth.
The only way to stop corruption, which is inherent in any system because it comes from human nature, not politics, is to make sure that the common people have a share in power. That's why there is such a thing as social democracy.
Quoting Chukcha
We still need some kind of system (unless you advocate anarchy). Socialism puts a bottom line on poverty, meaning there is a safety net below which you can't fall.
power in hands of any human will make the world collapse, humans are humans, whether socialists or capitalists, or whoever.
Capitalism promotes greed and power over other people, socialism as a political and economic system means a more fair distribution of wealth.
The only way to stop corruption, which is inherent in any system because it comes from human nature, not politics, is to make sure that the common people have a share in power. That's why there is such a thing as social democracy.
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 9,094
Videos: 1
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
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Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
April 17th, 2007, 10:49 AM
I was reading an essay last night that dealt in part with the tendency of liberals and spongy leftists in general to see socialism as unrealistic.When in fact socialism is far more realistic than pie in the sky pipe dreams sold by capitalism. This tendency to see unrealism in practical solutions offered by socially responsible methods is a result of the conditioning the capitalist system. It's exactly the thinking that has kept social medicine out of the states when the evidence in support of exactly that is overwhelming. Trashing socialism is usually based on brainwashing not facts.
Quoting hermanntrude
I dont think anyone (except possibly westmanguy) could argue that capitalism is an inherently good thing. But socialism doesnt seem to be realistic. it doesn't fit in with the systems all around it. Also it's prone to corruption from within, along the lines of killing anyone who's an "enemy of the state". Although come to think of it that applies well to capitalism too.
I was reading an essay last night that dealt in part with the tendency of liberals and spongy leftists in general to see socialism as unrealistic.When in fact socialism is far more realistic than pie in the sky pipe dreams sold by capitalism. This tendency to see unrealism in practical solutions offered by socially responsible methods is a result of the conditioning the capitalist system. It's exactly the thinking that has kept social medicine out of the states when the evidence in support of exactly that is overwhelming. Trashing socialism is usually based on brainwashing not facts.
what green dots?
Posts: 3,157
April 17th, 2007, 10:57 AM
Quoting hermanntrude
left to their own devices capitalist entities are just as prone to eating their young. that's the nature of the bureaucratic beast.
...Also it's prone to corruption from within...
