Bin Laden's Reason for Jihad against the US

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Sure OBL is a nutcase. But even nutcases can have a rational. In the case of OBL, his reasons for wanting the USA to be precisely where it is today were clear a decade ago.

This isn't an anti-American rant. Its an anti-American foreign policy and anti-American government rant and there is a huge difference.

It isn't anti-American to be critical of American foreign policies which led to 9/11 and continue to contribute to the next 9/11.

It isn't pro-American to blindly accept every idiotic self serving scheme coming out of the Whitehouse.

Most Americans I've met are likeable enough. Some are even knowledgeable and informed. But most Americans know little about the outside world, little about American foreign policy and they would be wise to learn what their country has been doing for the last 60 years in the middle east. Maybe then they might be able to figure it out when their leaders tell them bold faced lies about their intention to bring peace and democracy to the middle east.

Here are some facts all Americans should know:

Fact: The suspected 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Lebanon or Egypt. Not a single one came from Iraq. In fact not a single shred of solid evidence has ever been produced which links the events preceding and including 9/11 to Iraq. Since 9/11, Iraq has been closely linked by American foreign policy and thats not because of poor intelligence although that is also a problem.

Fact: Before the Supreme Court appointed Bush Jr. President of the USA, most of his advisors belonged to a right wing think tank known as "Progress for a New American Century" (PNAC). This group advocated pre-emptive attacks against possible future competitors, assuming regional hegemony by force of arms, controlling energy resources around the globe, maintaining a permanent-war strategy, etc... Not content to starve Iraq into submission, one of their stated primary objectives before Bush Jr. took office, long before 9/11, was to invade and occupy Iraq.

Fact: Unconditional American support of Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestine as well as billions in military and economic support has turned millions of Palestinians into landless refugees. Palestinians blame the US as much as Israel for the theft of their dignity, property and future. Each day as Israel kills more innocent Palestinian civilians, annexes more Palestinian land, demolishes more Palestinians homes and builds Jewish only colonies over the ashes, 1.4 billion Arabs and Muslims become more angry at Israel and the US.

Fact: Saudia Arabia and Egypt are among the world's most oppressive regimes. Their leaders rely completely on American support to maintain their brutal grip on power. Both nations have secret police which imprison, torture and execute anyone who attempts to make these regimes less oppressive. Egypt like Israel recieves billions each year in economic and military aid from the US. Its a bribe for Egypt's leaders in exchange for not complaining too loudly about the smoke of burning Palestinian homes and ignoring Israeli victims' pleas for help. Both Egyptian and Saudi leaders rely on American support to maintain power. Ordinary Egyptians and Saudis blame the US for their oppressive governments.

Seldom does our news ever interview Palestinians, Egyptians or Saudis. Usually we get a filtered view from an "expert", which usually represents the American or Israeli view rather than the facts. These so called experts aren't interested in informing us but in manipulating our opinions and obfuscating the real issues. That's why the Facts as people knew them didn't add up to 9/11.

But its a small world and if you want to know what people like OBL think, you can read their own words:

Transcript of Osama Bin Ladin interview by Peter Arnett

The first-ever television interview with Osama Bin Ladin was conducted by Peter Arnett in eastern Afghanistan in late March 1997.

BIN LADIN: We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal whether directly or through its support of the Israeli occupation of the Prophet's Night Travel Land (Palestine). And we believe the US is directly responsible for those who were killed in Palestine, Lebanon and Iraq. The mention of the US reminds us before everything else of those innocent children who were dismembered, their heads and arms cut off in the recent explosion that took place in Qana (in Lebanon). This US government abandoned even humanitarian feelings by these hideous crimes. It transgressed all bounds and behaved in a way not witnessed before by any power or any imperialist power in the world. They should have been considerate that the qibla (Mecca) of the Muslims upheaves the emotion of the entire Muslim World. Due to its subordination to the Jews the arrogance and haughtiness of the US regime has reached, to the extent that they occupied the qibla of the Muslims (Arabia) who are more than a billion in the world today. For this and other acts of aggression and injustice, we have declared jihad against the US, because in our religion it is our duty to make jihad so that God's word is the one exalted to the heights and so that we drive the Americans away from all Muslim countries. As for what you asked whether jihad is directed against US soldiers, the civilians in the land of the Two Holy Places (Saudi Arabia, Mecca and Medina) or against the civilians in America, we have focused our declaration on striking at the soldiers in the country of The Two Holy Places. The country of the Two Holy Places has in our religion a peculiarity of its own over the other Muslim countries. In our religion, it is not permissible for any non-Muslim to stay in our country. Therefore, even though American civilians are not targeted in our plan, they must leave. We do not guarantee their safety, because we are in a society of more than a billion Muslims. A reaction might take place as a result of US government's hitting Muslim civilians and executing more than 600 thousand Muslim children in Iraq by preventing food and medicine from reaching them. So, the US is responsible for any reaction, because it extended its war against troops to civilians. This is what we say. As for what you asked regarding the American people, they are not exonerated from responsibility, because they chose this government and voted for it despite their knowledge of its crimes in Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq and in other places and its support of its agent regimes who filled our prisons with our best children and scholars. We ask that may God release them....

The rest here:

http://www.anusha.com/osamaint.htm

Read OBL's words for yourself. Don't rely on an "expert" to interpret his meaning. His problems with the west seem clear enough and are shared by millions of Arabs and Muslims around the world. Few people agree with his methods, but since 1997 far more Arabs and Muslims listen to nutcases like OBL than ever before.

The Iraq invasion did more for OBL's causes than anything he could have done himself. I suppose he can thank the Bush adminstration for helping his cause.
 

s243a

Council Member
Mar 9, 2007
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[FONT=&quot]What good are allies if you sell them out to appease some nutcase? Good for the US for standing by Israel.[/FONT]
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
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Sure OBL is a nutcase. But even nutcases can have a rational. In the case of OBL, his reasons for wanting the USA to be precisely where it is today were clear a decade ago.
Here are some facts all Americans should know:

Fact: The suspected 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Lebanon or Egypt. Not a single one came from Iraq.
We all know that too.

In fact not a single shred of solid evidence has ever been produced which links the events preceding and including 9/11 to Iraq.
That is true.
Since 9/11, Iraq has been closely linked by American foreign policy and thats not because of poor intelligence although that is also a problem.

I think we are all aware of that, and I would hope the u.s. people are, as they have heard it over and
over.
Fact: Unconditional American support of Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestine as well as billions in military and economic support has turned millions of Palestinians into landless refugees. Palestinians blame the US as much as Israel for the theft of their dignity, property and future. Each day as Israel kills more innocent Palestinian civilians, annexes more Palestinian land,
They have returned some land, and were in the process of preparing to return more. As soon as they
returned the first piece, palestinians immediately set up there rockets/or whatever they send over, and instead of setting up their own community there, they started doing their dirty deeds into Israel.
Why don't they use that energy to improve their own lives, they do nothing for their own people.

demolishes more Palestinians homes and builds Jewish only colonies over the ashes, 1.4 billion Arabs and Muslims become more angry at Israel and the US.
And, many are disturbed by the actions of the palastinians.

Fact: Saudia Arabia and Egypt are among the world's most oppressive regimes.
I agree with that statement.

Their leaders rely completely on American support to maintain their brutal grip on power.
Yes, that is why they want the u.s. military presence there, as they could be overthrown.

Both nations have secret police which imprison, torture and execute anyone who attempts to make these regimes less oppressive. Egypt like Israel recieves billions each year in economic and military aid from the US.
Why don't the Egyptians and other arab nations have more interest in their own people, and also
the palestinians, they could be putting millions of dollars in aid, there is no care given by any
arab nation to any other arab nation, but they blame the u.s. for all of their "lack" of progress.
They are cruel regimes, who suppress their own people, and blame the u.s. for everything.

I also don't have much sympathy for Israel anymore, but I also don't have any respect for palestinians, as they don't have any leadership, and they only "dream" is to make Israel go away, they don't want
peace with Israel, they want Israel to "leave". It wouldn't matter how many peace talks took place,
they don't want piece, they want all of the area for themselves.

But its a small world and if you want to know what people like OBL think, you can read their own words

Read OBL's words for yourself. Don't rely on an "expert" to interpret his meaning. His problems with the west seem clear enough and are shared by millions of Arabs and Muslims around the world. Few people agree with his methods, but since 1997 far more Arabs and Muslims listen to nutcases like OBL than ever before.
I suppose that is right, but millions of arabs and muslims don't have a clue about the west, they only
know what they are told "there", they have no freedom of press, or speech, and can't find out for
themselves.

The Iraq invasion did more for OBL's causes than anything he could have done himself. I suppose he can thank the Bush adminstration for helping his cause.
Yes, George Bush has recruited thousands of new terrorists.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Some Palestinians including members of Hamas are willing to consider peace with Israel:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Published on Friday, May 12, 2006 by CommonDreams.org [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Why Are Hamas Peace Moves Ignored? [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]by Ira Chernus [/FONT]​


The Hamas moderates are ... willing to accept Israel’s existence and promise it security, but only in return for full sovereignty over all of the West Bank and Gaza, including East Jerusalem. It’s roughly the same kind of deal that Yasir Arafat insisted on. If Israel had accepted that compromise from Arafat at Camp David six years ago, the Middle East could now be moving closer to peace. But the Israelis refused. They stigmatized Arafat as an “irrelevant” obstacle to peace.


Now they are likely to do the same to the Hamas moderates. Then the Hamas hard-liners will say, with good reason, “See. We told you there’s no reasoning with Israel. The only option is to keep on fighting.” And tragically, Israel will make that argument seem persuasive to many Palestinians. Every time there is an internal Palestinian debate like this, and the Israelis refuse to offer signs of moderation, they doom the Palestinian moderates to irrelevance and add fuel to the Middle East fire.
There’s no question that Israeli policy aims to keep the conflict going...

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0512-34.htm
 

gc

Electoral Member
May 9, 2006
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One thing I know, it's not because he "hates our freedom"
 

s243a

Council Member
Mar 9, 2007
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Some Palestinians including members of Hamas are willing to consider peace with Israel:
For that they need to build some trust. Sure, full sovereignty in the far future provided they establish trust and work with Israel to stop the cycle of violence. Not sovereignty as a way to make it easier to regroup and re-arm.
 

DurkaDurka

Internet Lawyer
Mar 15, 2006
10,385
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Israel will never act in good faith untill it is defeated again, personally I don't care what the Arabs do with them.:smile:

I'm sure if it came to that point, the Arabs wouldn't be able to agree amongst them selves on what to do with them. Consensus doesn't come easy to ME countries...
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
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Israel will never act in good faith untill it is defeated again, personally I don't care what the Arabs do with them.:smile:

They'll cut off all of their heads, and yours too, if you get too close, they love doing that, I think
they drool like my "chocolate" lab at the thought of it.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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They'll cut off all of their heads, and yours too, if you get too close, they love doing that, I think
they drool like my "chocolate" lab at the thought of it.

You read too many comic books Talloola, nobody murders more men women and children than Uncle Sam, don't be so afraid of the arabs they don't have aircraft carriers or nukes or Fruit companys that rape whole continents.:lol:
 

DurkaDurka

Internet Lawyer
Mar 15, 2006
10,385
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You read too many comic books Talloola, nobody murders more men women and children than Uncle Sam, don't be so afraid of the arabs they don't have aircraft carriers or nukes or Fruit companys that rape whole continents.:lol:

they just have magic planes/buses/martyrs that go ka-boom. :cherry:
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
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they just have magic planes/buses/martyrs that go ka-boom. :cherry:

The planes you are refering to were not Arab nor were they flown by Arabs, no forensic evidence to say otherwise Durka just the bull****e story of GW Shrub. I think it's heroic to carry a bomba into an enemy place or a bus or a baby carriage or a lunch box or a thermos or a pair of shoes.hahahahahahah:lol:
 

DurkaDurka

Internet Lawyer
Mar 15, 2006
10,385
129
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Toronto
The planes you are refering to were not Arab nor were they flown by Arabs, no forensic evidence to say otherwise Durka just the bull****e story of GW Shrub. I think it's heroic to carry a bomba into an enemy place or a bus or a baby carriage or a lunch box or a thermos or a pair of shoes.hahahahahahah:lol:

Arabs have a history of highjacking jets Beaver, even if you refuse to believe they were responsible for 911.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
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People should know about Abu Shanab. That assassination clearly shows that Israel's leaders are not interested in a negotiated settlement.

The nail in the wood: an interview with Ismail Abu Shanab
ISMAIL ABU SHANAB and PAUL HILDER
Open Democracy, July 2002
Introduction

I met Ismail Abu Shanab in the summer of 2002, in Gaza. Everyone knew where he lived. My young friend Yusuf, who attended the Islamic University with his son, proudly led me to their home on the outskirts of Gaza City. We rang the bell. His daughter led us inside to a book-lined living room where Abu Shanab, a strong-jawed man in white robes, offered us lemonade. No bodyguards in sight.

Just three days before our meeting, Salah Shehadeh, leader of Hamas’s military wing and formerly Abu Shanab’s cellmate, had been assassinated with a one-ton bomb. It demolished a refugee-camp block and killed fourteen civilians. But I felt no fear. Abu Shanab was the most moderate leader of Hamas’s political wing, not at that time a target. This was Hamas’s ceasefire negotiator, a man who advocated engagement in parliamentary process, who was openly prepared to entertain the two-state solution.

On 21 August 2003, Ismail Abu Shanab was assassinated by an Israeli helicopter missile strike while travelling by car in Gaza. Government press releases termed him "terrorist", "operative".

But veering off-message, an Israeli security source told the Washington Post after his killing, "To what extent that person was involved [in terrorism] or not is not important. What is important is that this man... is one of the people who makes decisions about what kind of policies Hamas should adopt."
We talked for an hour. He was no liberal, and no innocent. But without him, Hamas will be very different...

http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node/774

As for Egypt...

Aid is central to Washington's relationship with Cairo. The US has provided Egypt with $1.3 billion a year in military aid since 1979, and an average of $815 million a year in economic assistance. All told, Egypt has received over $50 billion in US largesse since 1975.

The money is seen as bolstering Egypt's stability, support for US policies in the region, US access to the Suez Canal, and peace with Israel. But some critics question the aid's effectiveness in spurring economic and democratic development in the Arab world's most populous country - a higher US priority after Sept. 11, 2001.

"Aid offers an easy way out for Egypt to avoid reform," says Edward Walker, the US ambassador to Egypt from 1994 to 1998. "They use the money to support antiquated programs and to resist reforms."

Egypt's economy is deeply troubled. Unemployment has climbed to 25 percent, foreign investment last year dropped to a 20-year low, and until recently the currency was losing value on a weekly basis. Rather than helping, American aid is "depressing the need for reform," according to former Ambassador Walker...

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0412/p07s01-wome.html

Egypt's brutal regime is really just America's pet pit bull:

The fate of the Egyptian imam Osama Moustafa Hassan Nasr, better known as Abu Omar, is one of the best-documented cases of the controversial abductions by the US. In February 2003, a CIA team kidnapped the radical cleric in Milan as he was on his way to his mosque. From the point of view of the US investigators Abu Omar was a suspect who could have knowledge of the activities of jihadists in Europe -- perhaps.

In these kinds of situations, things are rarely done gently. Drugged and tied-up, Abu Omar was bundled into a white mini-van and taken to the US base at Aviano, and then by jet via the US airbase in Ramstein, Germany more or less directly to an Egyptian jail. During his weeks of interrogation there, Abu Omar claims to have been tortured by the local officials. In a letter that was smuggled out of the jail, he reports of electrical shocks and writes that his face has been disfigured by these methods. He is being held in a jail in Alexandria to this day...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,458821,00.html

...Many aspects of Egypt’s poor human rights record came in for unprecedented public criticism in 2005 as Egyptian democracy activists challenged President Hosni Mubarak’s quarter century of authoritarian rule and the U.S. administration pressed the Egyptian leader to promote basic political rights such as freedom of expression and freedom of assembly. President Mubarak easily won a fifth presidential term in the country’s first-ever contested presidential election in early September, which took place largely without incident, but the first rounds of nationwide parliamentary elections in November were marked by extensive irregularities and, in some cases, violence by pro-government forces. Serious issues like routine torture remain unaddressed. Emergency rule continued to provide the basis for arbitrary detention and trials before military and state security courts. Approximately fifteen thousand people remain in prolonged detention without charge under the terms of the Emergency Law, according to the Cairo-based Human Rights Association for Assistance to Prisoners...

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/18/egypt12212.htm

An example of the US supporting democracy in the middle east?

23 May 2006

Egypt: Violent attacks and arrests of peaceful protesters must stop



Amnesty International is greatly concerned about the wave of repression and arrests that took place in Egypt last week, as protesters came out calling for respect of the independence of the judiciary, in support of two senior judges, Mahmoud Mekki and Hisham Bastawisi, who were due to appear before a disciplinary panel for speaking out against election irregularities.

Heavy police security was used to seal off several areas in Cairo leading to the High Court Building where the hearing of the two senior judges was due to take place on 18 May. Riot police and men in plain clothes assisting them beat and kicked pro-reform and opposition protesters with truncheons. At least 300 were arrested during the attacks; most of them were members of the banned Muslim Brotherhood Organization, including leading members Essam al-Erryan, Muhammed Morsy and Maged Hassan.

Most of those arrested remain in custody following orders by the Public Prosecutor to detain them for 15 days pending investigation. They have reportedly been accused of participating in demonstrations, slandering the President of the Republic of Egypt, resisting the authorities and obstructing the implementation of the law. On 17 May, the Minister of Interior had issued an order banning any peaceful assembly and demonstrations in front of the High Court Building.

The police violence and wave of arrests occurred when people came out to demonstrate for more independence of the judiciary, in support of Mahmoud Mekki and Hisham Bastawisi, vice-presidents at the Court of Cassation, who were being disciplined on account of their criticism of alleged fraud and other irregularities during the country’s recent parliamentary elections. The disciplinary panel cleared Mahmoud Mekki of "insulting the judicial authority" and "criticising colleagues who supervised last year’s parliamentary elections" but reprimanded Hisham Bastawisi on similar accusations and denied his upcoming promotion. Amnesty International is concerned that the hearing may not have been impartial, given that some members of the disciplinary board had publicly condemned statements made by the two judges.

In a separate development, the Court of Cassation confirmed the five-year imprisonment sentence that was handed against al-Ghad (Tomorrow) Party leader Ayman Nour in December 2005 on what he said were trumped up forgery charges. The December trial was marred by a number of irregularities that violate international standards of fair trials. Amnesty International remains concerned that the trial may be politically motivated and calls on the authorities to retry Ayman Nour in compliance with international standards of fairness...

http://www.amnesty.ca/resource_centre/news/view.php?load=arcview&article=3492&c=Resource+Centre+News
 
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talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
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You read too many comic books Talloola, nobody murders more men women and children than Uncle Sam, don't be so afraid of the arabs they don't have aircraft carriers or nukes or Fruit companys that rape whole continents.:lol:

No they don't have much of anything, (except for their leaders who are selfish dictators, who keep
all for themselves.), and they will never have fighter planes, or much of anything, as they seem
lazy and backward, and the "cutting" off the head practice, is what they do, as they haven't progressed much further in time, and many of their own people are slain for "nothing", only that they
were disobedient or said something non religious.
No country is all good, or all bad, we have our choices though, they have none.
 

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
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Great Satan
As much as DB and UBL says the entire US is responsible for our own govt..the Muslims are responsible for the 14th century lifestyles they suffer under.

Of course youll never see him or his buds apply the brush so equally.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
19,576
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The planes you are refering to were not Arab nor were they flown by Arabs, no forensic evidence to say otherwise Durka just the bull****e story of GW Shrub. I think it's heroic to carry a bomba into an enemy place or a bus or a baby carriage or a lunch box or a thermos or a pair of shoes.hahahahahahah:lol:

I guess you would be proud to be a "pawn" of people who will not die for "anything", but will suck you
into some cock n bull story about "virgins" and "money". Those suicide bombers are actually robots,
who, over the years have been programmed, and don't know anything other than the narrow tunnel
they have been taught to look through. Their minds only work on one channel, and have since they
were little children, not allowed to grow up with any kind of choice in life, but to die, in a rage,
against the west. Even their religion has been hyjacked, and their schools, so, your right, they
feel proud of what they do, they die thinking they are going to accomplish something. They have
nothing in the world but "pity" from others who are allowed to think for themselves, and know
something about "everyones" mistakes, not just "what they are taught". If they would only allow
their own people to progress, and amount to something, but they hold them in an age which
leaves them so far behind, and slipping further each generation.
Sure, the U.S./Britain, can look back now, and realize how wrong they were, but we can all say that
to them as well, where else in the world can you say those "honest" things to countries leaders,
without getting "your" head chopped off, or "just" shot at dawn.
If you were one of them, and felt the way you do about your country, you would have to keep your
mouth shut, or you would be in one of those rat infested prisons, being treated worse than an
animal, begging for your life.
You obviously hate the West, and you a free to say it, and say it very strongly, and I am happy you
can do that.
We are free.